Did Trudeau Fail His Country On Covid-19

dialamah · May 3, 2020

15 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Do you want the government to know where you are at all times? Whose house you may have visited. I know they can already have this knowledge, but I don't support it.

It's not quite as all-encompassing as that; they never did find the driver who ran down a friend of mine in 2016, even though they had a picture of the vehicle from a traffic camera a half block away. Authorities also look for fugitives for weeks, months or years and sometimes never do find them. But there is definitely more surveillance of all of us than they're used to be, and even just using a cell phone is certainly a good way to be tracked.

Do I think the installation of an app on my phone as a method for the government to track a virus a good idea? Not really; I think this is a short term problem (I hope, anyway) and that people's memories will have to suffice in order to track where the virus might have been picked up, and where it might have gone. An app allowing government to follow me would last well beyond the crisis of the moment. I might think it's ok if my spouse/children know where I am at all times, but that would be with my consent, with the belief that they'd really have my best interests at heart. Can't say as much for government.

Moonlight Graham · May 3, 2020

We can never expect our governments to enact decent privacy laws against tech companies. It's not in the government's interests. They want access to as much mass surveillance as possible.

Argus · May 3, 2020

2 hours ago, New World Disorder said:

Would you oppose government run cameras in your home to track you?

Obviously. But if I check my phone right now it knows exactly where I am, which means google knows where I am, and Rogers knows where I am, and I bet several apps belonging to others know where I am, too. You think governments don't have access to that?

2 hours ago, New World Disorder said:

How far is too far for you? When do you say 'no that is enough'? This kind of stuff is easier for people to accept during a crisis. Otherwise most would be opposed to it.

Limit your use of those services or change services.

All services do it. I don't choose to live in a cabin in the woods without electronics or a car, thanks.

Argus · May 3, 2020

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

We can never expect our governments to enact decent privacy laws against tech companies. It's not in the government's interests. They want access to as much mass surveillance as possible.

Why? I mean, the police would like it, but the government rarely cares what the police want.

cannuck · May 4, 2020

10 hours ago, New World Disorder said:

Totalitarian by design means it does not work for the people.

Not what most Chinese would tell you. Of course, they conveniently forget that Chairman Mao ran a totalitarian state - but life since Deng and now with Xi is pretty good for them and improving daily.

New World Disorder · May 4, 2020

5 hours ago, cannuck said:

Not what most Chinese would tell you. Of course, they conveniently forget that Chairman Mao ran a totalitarian state - but life since Deng and now with Xi is pretty good for them and improving daily.

Chinese get jailed for negative things that they post on the social media run by the CCP. They won't tell you because that risks them jail time. They treated Li Wenliang like an enemy of the state when he was trying to warn people about the virus. Now that he is dead,, the CCP praises him. That seems odd does it not?

Take a look at the social credit score system that is set up in China.

WestCanMan · May 5, 2020

2 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Here are a couple of good comps for Canada re: covid, highlighting the effectiveness of Trump's travel ban.

CANADA vs AUSTRALIA - 41x as many Canadians DEAD from covid

Australia banned travel from China just after Trump:

Aus: 25M people, 7.7M sq km, pop density 3.3 people per sq km. 95 deaths. If they had 38M people they would have ~ 150 deaths.

Canada: 38M people, 10M sq km, 3.8 people per sq km. 3,854 deaths. 3,854/150 = 26x as many Canadians die from Covid

CANADA vs CALIFORNIA - Almost twice as many Canadians are DEAD, we have a smaller population, we have 1/25th the pop density.

Travel from China was banned Jan 31

Cali: 40M people, 424,000sk km, pop density 94 people per sq km (25x our pop density) 2,172 deaths

Canada: 38M people, 10M sq km, 3.8 people per sq km. 3,854 deaths. 3,854/2,172 = 1.8x as many Canadians died from Covid.

California is a great comp for Canada imo. They have LA County with 10M, we have the GTA with 6M, the also have SD, SF, Sacramento etc. The comp actually gives us a huge advantage because we have a much lower population density, but they still have less deaths than us.

DON'T BE A STOOGE FOR CHINA, THE WHO, AND THE VILLAGE IDIOT

I know that it's wildly popular for our MSM and the people who got sucked in by them to quote Canada's covid stats vs NYC, despite the fact that NYC has 13,500x our population density and 1/9th of our population rides the subway there every day, but the facts are in: Trump's travel ban, which obviously meets the common sense criterion, and the common knowledge criterion, seems to have saved Cali just like a travel ban saved Aus.

Note Canada's extremely low pop density vs the east and west coasts of the US. This map is a visual representation of how Canada is, by virtue of our geography, social distancing to an extent.

FACT: Trudeau's stupidity, his love for the Chinese dictatorship, and his inactivity screwed Canada bigtime. And this post just takes into account our government not shutting down travel. You can comp Canada's death rate vs covid with Tokyo and other cities in Asia that mandated the use of masks in addition to travel bans for a good idea of how screwed we were for just blindly following idiot Dr Tam and the TREACHEROUS WHO.

Boges · May 5, 2020

Canada being close to the US is a mitigating factor in Canada's cases and deaths.

In Ontario, deaths are more than 2/3 people in Longterm facilities.

California acted earlier on Social Distancing. Much earlier than Trump did. Yet they're stubbornly low on testing. Much lower than Canada's figures.

Though their reaction has been a model on how to contain this virus.

WestCanMan · May 5, 2020

4 hours ago, Boges said:

Canada being close to the US is a mitigating factor in Canada's cases and deaths.

In Ontario, deaths are more than 2/3 people in Longterm facilities.

California acted earlier on Social Distancing. Much earlier than Trump did. Yet they're stubbornly low on testing. Much lower than Canada's figures.

Though their reaction has been a model on how to contain this virus.

On Feb 24th Nancy Pelosi was advertising her covid-spreading party in Chinatown. California's lack of covid is a factor of their lack of covid visitors, period.

Argus · May 5, 2020

6 hours ago, Boges said:

Canada being close to the US is a mitigating factor in Canada's cases and deaths.

In Ontario, deaths are more than 2/3 people in Longterm facilities.

California acted earlier on Social Distancing. Much earlier than Trump did. Yet they're stubbornly low on testing. Much lower than Canada's figures.

Though their reaction has been a model on how to contain this virus.

If any western country has been a model its been Australia.

Moonlight Graham · May 5, 2020

On 5/3/2020 at 4:18 PM, Argus said:

Why? I mean, the police would like it, but the government rarely cares what the police want.

They want information for all sorts of reasons, including security and enforcement. The Liberals wanted to go into our bank accounts last year to siphen our financial data, for stat purposes.

Harper's gov, for security, among other things:

Harper’s attempts started with 2009’s pairing of Bill C-46, the Investigative Powers for the 21st Century Act, and Bill C-47, the Technical Assistance for Law Enforcement in the 21st Century Act, which sought to extend lawful access provisions and created warrantless police access to many aspects of Internet communications such as subscriber data. These were eventually withdrawn, but re-emerged in 2011 as Bill C-30, which also sought to extend police powers and require telephone companies and Internet service providers to install surveillance hardware.

http://www.theharperdecade.com/blog/2015/8/4/harpers-surveillance-decade

Zeitgeist · May 6, 2020

19 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

So there’s a lot to unpack in your stats. While Canada has had half the infection and death rates of the US, you have to look state to state and province to province, consider density, as well as consider public health policy. 80% of Canada’s cases and deaths occurred in the Greater Montreal and Greater Toronto areas, the densest parts of the country. More than half of Canada’s deaths are in Quebec. In both Ontario and Quebec, most of the deaths, more than two thirds, are in senior care homes.

Nevertheless, Quebec and Ontario have faired better than all the big north-eastern US states: Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Michigan, and Illinois. Ontario has 40% of Canada’s population and about 35% of Canada’s deaths. Ontario, with 1361 deaths and a population of 14.5 million hasn’t done as well as California with 2254 deaths and a population of 39 million. It also hasn’t done as well as Florida with 1400 deaths and 21.5 million people. Texas has done very well with 29 million and 844 deaths. However, the cities in those states aren’t as dense as the cities in the northeastern states and central Canada. New York is denser than L.A. Chicago and Toronto are denser than Houston or Dallas.

If you compare western states and provinces, BC and Alberta have faired better than Texas and California. Washington State has 6.5 million people and over 800 deaths. BC has 101 deaths and over 5 million people. Alberta has more population than Oregon and slightly fewer deaths than Oregon.

So, west does better than east. Dense does worse than spread out. After that you have go look at policy, which varies state to state, province to province, and country to country. Texas has done well for a populous state, but it’s a big spread out state. California has done well, but it has nowhere near the density of an NYC in its large cities. There aren’t any Californian cities that compare in density to cities like Toronto or Chicago, except San Francisco, which is still on a smaller scale.

It’s also important to consider that there seems to be a more aggressive mutation of the virus that came to the northeast US from Europe.

You can’t compare a smaller, more sparsely populated island like Australia or an even smaller island like New Zealand to the context of Canada, which borders a populous country that has had a major outbreak in its northeastern states.

The bottom line is that, after accounting for all these other variables, our public health policy has served us well because most of our population is huddled in the south and our biggest densest cities compare to all the major dense US cities except parts of NYC.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Zeitgeist

WestCanMan · May 6, 2020

3 hours ago, Argus said:

If any western country has been a model its been Australia.

Yeah, but western nations weren't good enough, by far. Up until 2020, us crackers were too cool to wear masks. We were really screwed by it. Luckily this wasn't a more virulent strain. It could have been a lot worse.

Edited May 6, 2020 by WestCanMan

WestCanMan · May 6, 2020

49 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

So there’s a lot to unpack in your stats. While Canada has had half the infection and death rates of the US, you have to look state to state and province to province, consider density, as well as consider public health policy. 80% of Canada’s cases and deaths occurred in the Greater Montreal and Greater Toronto areas, the densest parts of the country. More than half of Canada’s deaths are in Quebec. In both Ontario and Quebec, most of the deaths, more than two thirds, are in senior care homes.

Nevertheless, Quebec and Ontario have faired better than all the big north-eastern US states: Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Michigan, and Illinois. Ontario has 40% of Canada’s population and about 35% of Canada’s deaths. Ontario, with 1361 deaths and a population of 14.5 million hasn’t done as well as California with 2254 deaths and a population of 39 million. It also hasn’t done as well as Florida with 1400 deaths and 21.5 million people. Texas has done very well with 29 million and 844 deaths. However, the cities in those states aren’t as dense as the cities in the northeastern states and central Canada. New York is denser than L.A. Chicago and Toronto are denser than Houston or Dallas.

If you compare western states and provinces, BC and Alberta have faired better than Texas and California. Washington State has 6.5 million people and over 800 deaths. BC has 101 deaths and over 5 million people. Alberta has more population than Oregon and slightly fewer deaths than Oregon.

So, west does better than east. Dense does worse than spread out. After that you have go look at policy, which varies state to state, province to province, and country to country. Texas has done well for a populous state, but it’s a big spread out state. California has done well, but it has nowhere near the density of an NYC in its large cities. There aren’t any Californian cities that compare in density to cities like Toronto or Chicago, except San Francisco, which is still on a smaller scale.

It’s also important to consider that there seems to be a more aggressive mutation of the virus that came to the northeast US from Europe.

You can’t compare a smaller, more sparsely populated island like Australia or an even smaller island like New Zealand to the context of Canada, which borders a populous country that has had a major outbreak in its northeastern states.

I appreciate your sensible, thoughtful response.

I disagree about Aus. It's a bit smaller, but the population is smaller by a nearly equal amount so their density is right on par with ours. Their big cities; Brisbane, Melbourne, Perth and Sydney are comparable with our biggest cities. They're just kicking our ass, and the travel ban they implemented was obviously a big part of it.

I think Aus is a really important study in the transmission of the virus, because they have so much control over the areas of access for their foreign visitors. It's easier to track the timeline of the virus entering that country because we know for certain when travel from China stopped, and when all inbound travel stopped.

That being said, I don't think that it's fair for us to blame the US as being a big influencer for our covid situation because we didn't take any precautions at all until March 16th. The virus was free to get into Canada from every direction and our government was advising us not to wear masks.

In truth, we could be just as guilty of contributing to their problem because the NYC subway system was the best petri dish on earth, and it's unlikely that there weren't at least a few Canadians who brought the virus down there with them. If 10 Canadians got on the NYC subway system with covid they could be responsible for thousands of cases.

Do you honestly think California is a bad comp for Canada? They have almost our exact population, they have LA County with 10M people, they have lots of big cities, they weren't practicing social distancing any earlier or later than us, honestly the only major difference is the travel ban.

If there's one thing that goes against the Aus and Cali comps I used it's the sunlight factor imo. I'm a big believer in the effect of sunlight fighting viruses. For starters, UV rays kill viruses, and also Vit D helps our bodies fight infection. Those countries dose their population with Vit D by virtue of their weather. People also spend more time outside and their human interactions take place outdoors more.... baseball, BBQs, etc. If you meet with people in Canada or NYC in Dec through March 15th it's in a home or a pub/restaurant. Seasonal flus are always on the wane in summer months, that's old news. Aus was in their summer at the start of the pandemic, and So-Cal's winter is basically the same as Vancouver's summer.

Zeitgeist · May 6, 2020

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

I appreciate your sensible, thoughtful response.

I disagree about Aus. It's a bit smaller, but the population is smaller by a nearly equal amount so their density is right on par with ours. Their big cities; Brisbane, Melbourne, Perth and Sydney are comparable with our biggest cities. They're just kicking our ass, and the travel ban they implemented was obviously a big part of it.

I think Aus is a really important study in the transmission of the virus, because they have so much control over the areas of access for their foreign visitors. It's easier to track the timeline of the virus entering that country because we know for certain when travel from China stopped, and when all inbound travel stopped.

That being said, I don't think that it's fair for us to blame the US as being a big influencer for our covid situation because we didn't take any precautions at all until March 16th. The virus was free to get into Canada from every direction and our government was advising us not to wear masks.

In truth, we could be just as guilty of contributing to their problem because the NYC subway system was the best petri dish on earth, and it's unlikely that there weren't at least a few Canadians who brought the virus down there with them. If 10 Canadians got on the NYC subway system with covid they could be responsible for thousands of cases.

Do you honestly think California is a bad comp for Canada? They have almost our exact population, they have LA County with 10M people, they have lots of big cities, they weren't practicing social distancing any earlier or later than us, honestly the only major difference is the travel ban.

If there's one thing that goes against the Aus and Cali comps I used it's the sunlight factor imo. I'm a big believer in the effect of sunlight fighting viruses. For starters, UV rays kill viruses, and also Vit D helps our bodies fight infection. Those countries dose their population with Vit D by virtue of their weather. People also spend more time outside and their human interactions take place outdoors more.... baseball, BBQs, etc. If you meet with people in Canada or NYC in Dec through March 15th it's in a home or a pub/restaurant. Seasonal flus are always on the wane in summer months, that's old news. Aus was in their summer at the start of the pandemic, and So-Cal's winter is basically the same as Vancouver's summer.

Shutting down the border with the US is no small affair, especially with so many families split between the two countries. Canada did an across the board travel ban for all countries except the US. The US also closed our shared border at the same time we did. The China travel ban didn’t stop the European strain from hitting NYC. Travel bans, especially selective ones, are difficult decisions, and I don’t think they were especially decisive in the North American context unless they were done across the board in December, which no one would accept.

I like how certain provinces and states have managed the virus, but we have to avoid being too judgemental considering how suddenly and accidentally the virus can spread through a few carriers. Yes the sun helps. However the northern climates generally have fewer natural disasters, such as hurricanes. Advantages and disadvantages.

At this point I think trying to pin the virus problems on a Trudeau or Trump or any one person is unhelpful. Just about everyone could’ve managed the situation better in different ways. We should focus on the plan going forward under current conditions, which involves getting back to work while minimizing deaths. It won’t be pretty.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Zeitgeist

WestCanMan · May 6, 2020

13 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

At this point I think trying to pin the virus problems on a Trudeau or Trump or any one person is unhelpful.

But it's the main topic right now in north america.

And honestly, if you looked worldwide, is there another country aside from Canada that did absolutely nothing before March 16th? I doubt it.

Zeitgeist · May 6, 2020

3 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

But it's the main topic right now in north america.

And honestly, if you looked worldwide, is there another country aside from Canada that did absolutely nothing before March 16th? I doubt it.

Canada has performed better than the US and most major western European countries in tackling the virus, including UK, Spain, Italy, France, Belgium, Netherlands, and possibly Sweden. Germany is performing better, as is Austria.

Read this for a good summary. Consistent and relatively early strong public health policy has put Canada in a better position, but we’ve a long way to go:

https://apple.news/AXCuxteynRuCeJ_0v2Bgb2Q

Shady · May 6, 2020

The Trudeau government is now lowering the standards of importing medical equipment from China, because they failed to maintain a proper supply. This is a national disgrace and so is he.

Depleted national stockpile leaves Canada reliant on China for masks, gowns and other supplies during pandemic

Health Canada has temporarily lowered its standard for the importation PPE to meet demand

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/ppe-import-china-shortage-1.5552426

eyeball · May 6, 2020

24 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

But it's the main topic right now in north america.

Only because Trump and people like you insist on making it the main topic. You should be careful what you wish for. I wonder how long it will be until the Lincoln Project's Mourning in America attack ad has a death counter tallying up Trump's score? It'll probably even have the benchmarks of success that Trump set for himself.

WestCanMan · May 6, 2020

7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada has performed better than the US and most major western European countries in tackling the virus, including UK, Spain, Italy, France, Belgium, Netherlands, and possibly Sweden. Germany is performing better, as is Austria.

Read this for a good summary. Consistent and relatively early strong public health policy has put Canada in a better position, but we’ve a long way to go:

https://apple.news/AXCuxteynRuCeJ_0v2Bgb2Q

1) That article is from a state-owned broadcaster with no more credibility than Tass or AL Jazeera. Check the top left corner.

2) From the article: "While every expert agreed the U.S. government flubbed its early response to the pandemic, most said the administration of U.S. President Donald Trump was just one element in the bigger story." There's a jab at Trump, but CBC doesn't mention the complete failure of "The Chosen One" to take any action at all before March 16th.

3) I don't have much doubt about what kind of "experts" they chose. Dr Tam is still widely-respected in Canada and I think you'd agree that her advice was basically to leave Canada open to travel from covid hotspots and tell people not to wear masks, turning Canada into a huge Petri dish.

4) The chart which excludes NY, NJ and CT is probably too truthful and hurts their position quite a bit, in their effort to undermine the efforts of the US.

5) The fact that the US has 8x Canada's population density wasn't even mentioned. Canadians social distance naturally by virtue of our geography. It would take actual effort to spread covid far and wide here.

6) "Trump was quicker in some aspects of his response than the Canadian government. He limited travel much earlier and promoted the use of masks earlier." They're acknowledging Trump did the two main things before Trudeau, but like I said, every country on earth got the jump on us.

Shady · May 6, 2020

3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Only because Trump and people like you insist on making it the main topic. You should be careful what you wish for. I wonder how long it will be until the Lincoln Project's Mourning in America attack ad has a death counter tallying up Trump's score? It'll probably even have the benchmarks of success that Trump set for himself.

They really need to have the death counter associated with Cuomo and De Blasio.

eyeball · May 6, 2020

10 minutes ago, Shady said:

The Trudeau government is now lowering the standards of importing medical equipment from China, because they failed to maintain a proper supply. This is a national disgrace and so is he.

Health Canada has temporarily lowered its standard for the importation PPE to meet demand

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/ppe-import-china-shortage-1.5552426

So has virtually every country on the planet by now, from your link....

Quote

The United States appears to be taking a similar approach. The U.S. Food and Drug administration says that "for the duration of the pandemic," it will allow the importation of KN95 masks, which are respirators manufactured according to Chinese standards.

Besides which isn't this exactly the sort of de-regulatory approach you'd normally cheer in the face of supply and demand issues in the marketplace? Listen to the science, stop panicking and perhaps order yourself a ventilator.

WestCanMan · May 6, 2020

2 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Only because Trump and people like you insist on making it the main topic. You should be careful what you wish for. I wonder how long it will be until the Lincoln Project's Mourning in America attack ad has a death counter tallying up Trump's score? It'll probably even have the benchmarks of success that Trump set for himself.

OMG grow up. Do you think that's really true? The top Dems are going all-in on another "crucify Trump" lynch mob, this time over the handling of covid. Dipshits in Canada just gobble it up and regurgitate facts and stats without realizing that they are worthless and skewed.

Being the voice of reason is tiresome, but I hate to turn a blind eye and let the idiots control the conversation.

Shady · May 6, 2020

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

So has virtually every country on the planet by now, from your link....

Besides which isn't this exactly the sort of de-regulatory approach you'd normally cheer in the face of supply and demand issues in the marketplace? Listen to the science, stop panicking and perhaps order yourself a ventilator.

Yes, but only Trump is blamed. Other countries and other leaders in similar positions continue to get off Scott free.

eyeball · May 6, 2020

Just now, WestCanMan said:

OMG grow up. Do you think that's really true? The top Dems...

Hate to break it to you bud but the Lincoln Project ad was created by Republicans.

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Did Trudeau Fail His Country On Covid-19