Did Trudeau Fail His Country On Covid-19

[-1=e^ipi]

7 hours ago, eyeball said:

Neither do we along with just about everyone else.

We (Canada) needs to change that map by recognizing Taiwan. Although with the current government's overly cozy relationship with the communist party, I doubt that will happen any time soon.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, -1=e^ipi said:

We (Canada) needs to change that map by recognizing Taiwan. Although with the current government's overly cozy relationship with the communist party, I doubt that will happen any time soon.

I'd rather we unrecognize China and ask if Taiwan would like to become a member of Confederation. The problem is that our allies would abandon us and encourage most of the globe to join embargoing us out of respect for China and world order.

Just another day on Planet FUBAR. 

Edited April 24, 2020 by eyeball

[-1=e^ipi]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

I'd rather we unrecognize China and ask if Taiwan would like to become a member of Confederation. The problem is that our allies would abandon us and encourage most of the globe to join embargoing us out of respect for China and world order.

Just another day on Planet FUBAR. 

I disagree. I think if Canada did it (or another similar country like Australia, UK, France, etc.) then people in other countries would begin to ask why their governments don't support freedom and democracy by recognizing Taiwan. You would just need 1 country to break the taboo.

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, -1=e^ipi said:

I disagree. I think if Canada did it (or another similar country like Australia, UK, France, etc.) then people in other countries would begin to ask why their governments don't support freedom and democracy by recognizing Taiwan. You would just need 1 country to break the taboo.

I've been saying the same thing about transforming Earth's governments into institutions that were so transparent that Orwell himself would blush.  All it would take is one and every people on Earth would say we want that too.

That's when every other terror stricken politician on the planet would say "screw an embargo nuke the crazy-ass sons of bitches!"

[OftenWrong]

On 4/22/2020 at 11:49 AM, Shady said:

This is false, and more revisionist history.

You seem to spend a lot of time correcting the revisionists who spread their fake news around here. It's much appreciated!

[PIK]

12 hours ago, -1=e^ipi said:

I disagree. I think if Canada did it (or another similar country like Australia, UK, France, etc.) then people in other countries would begin to ask why their governments don't support freedom and democracy by recognizing Taiwan. You would just need 1 country to break the taboo.

After the world reads Former Aussie leader Malcolm turnbull's book and what he says about trudeau, no one will be taking us seriously again.  pretty sad when your socks are more important than the work he was supposed to be doing. They think he is weak. The guy is just a fool. He needs to go. And if people want to defends that , then go for it but you will just look as bad as he does.

Edited April 24, 2020 by PIK

[Argus]

18 hours ago, New World Disorder said:

Canada cannot produce it's own PPE? That's sad.

It is ramping up to do so. But until last month we made none.

[New World Disorder]

On 4/24/2020 at 1:23 PM, Argus said:

It is ramping up to do so. But until last month we made none.

Maybe all this will be ready when the Second Wave hits.

[New World Disorder]

On 4/22/2020 at 12:15 PM, Argus said:

I don't think I can express just how little I care about your 'numerous experts conclude' bullshit arguments, no matter how big the font is.

It does not take a genius to understand that there was a problem in January. The lockdowns China did early on would make people like Hitler blush.

[Argus]

So months into this thing we still do not have the ability to test enough people. And no idea when that might happen. As for contact tracing, it appears to be a hit and miss thing among the provinces and then even among the separate regions within the provinces. Someone who tested positive in Ottawa posted about his experiences the other day which basically said no one was interested in where he worked, or who he'd been with. They just told him to quarantine himself and his wife for 14 days. That was it. Buh-bye. We're sure as hell not going to get out of this and back to work with that sort of incompetence..

Meanwhile, our moron prime minister, when asked about digital contract tracing, using people's phones and the like, insisted that privacy was paramount but he was okay with 'voluntary' tracing. I think that's idiotic. People's privacy to keep secret that they were at Costco last Tuesday morning, or whatever, is not as important as saving lives and getting this virus under control.

South Korea does intensive contact tracing, involving both interviews with positive cases and digital tracing, then strips the information of identity data and puts it out to all people who live or work in the same area, or whose own phones showed they had been near the positive case. All this so they can get a very clear understanding of where new cases are originating.

Meanwhile, the other day, we heard from the Ontario public health head who confesses they have no idea how community spreading is occurring, or who is doing it, or how, or where. They don't know if its happening through people who are still working, through public contact at grocery stores and the like, or what. Why don't they know? This is basic information to control an epidemic.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/seouls-radical-experiment-in-digital-contact-tracing

https://globalnews.ca/news/6882145/coronavirus-tracking-app-canada/

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/testing-and-contact-tracing-is-canada-ready-1.5547281

Edited April 30, 2020 by Argus

[New World Disorder]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

So months into this thing we still do not have the ability to test enough people. And no idea when that might happen. As for contact tracing, it appears to be a hit and miss thing among the provinces and then even among the separate regions within the provinces. Someone who tested positive in Ottawa posted about his experiences the other day which basically said no one was interested in where he worked, or who he'd been with. They just told him to quarantine himself and his wife for 14 days. That was it. Buh-bye. We're sure as hell not going to get out of this and back to work with that sort of incompetence..

I'd be wary of the tests and who is producing them. If Canada has developed it's own tests, I would hope it would be consistent in the results. However I do see there are many different tests. As long as we stay away from the Chinese developed tests, which have been reported to have major problems (70% failure rate), then we might have an idea of how wide spread this is. I believe that most have already experienced it in one way or another and it would appear that most of us are already immune to this new strain.

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Meanwhile, our moron prime minister, when asked about digital contract tracing, using people's phones and the like, insisted that privacy was paramount but he was okay with 'voluntary' tracing. I think that's idiotic. People's privacy to keep secret that they were at Costco last Tuesday morning, or whatever, is not as important as saving lives and getting this virus under control.

Depends on how draconian you want to get. Trading privacy for security means you get neither. I'd also want security experts to weigh in on the security of such an application before it's launched as this has the potential for a lot of abuse.

 

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, Argus said:

South Korea does intensive contact tracing, involving both interviews with positive cases and digital tracing, then strips the information of identity data and puts it out to all people who live or work in the same area, or whose own phones showed they had been near the positive case. All this so they can get a very clear understanding of where new cases are originating.

The key differences between us and S Korea is that there is a far greater level of trust between the governed and the government and people are more willing to listen to experts and the politicians know it.  I think its mostly a matter of political maturity because the 'betters' in South Korea's society are used to having their attitudes adjusted periodically.  Recall that airline mogul's daughter who was publicly shamed for badmouthing the help. This poor woman was still walking around with her head hung in humiliation months later.

I bet if we were more like them our politicians would smarten up too.

Unfortunately most of our political immaturity stems from paranoid yahoos who imagine that contact tracing = One World Globalist Domination.  We seem to have no choice but to wait for a vaccine but predictably there's already talk of Big Pharma and the WHO forcing us to take it. If it wasn't so  it would be .

[jacee]

On 4/30/2020 at 11:50 AM, New World Disorder said:

I believe that most have already experienced it in one way or another and it would appear that most of us are already immune to this new strain.

Link pls? 

[New World Disorder]

17 hours ago, jacee said:

Link pls? 

Basing this on a few things. They are over classifying the virus cases. Meaning it's almost like a dragnet. Hospitals are marking down death by covid even if the cause of death is not the virus itself. Meaning a person who has covid and dies of a heart attack, the death is marked as due to covid.  That seems like they are intentionally hiding the numbers. Testing has been not been consistent or very accurate among the tests available.

In Quebec , about 1/3 of the death rate are related to long term care homes revealing the absolute negligence in said care homes. Now they are under criminal investigation and the army was called to step in. 

Canada.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/why-the-exact-death-toll-for-covid-19-may-never-be-known-1.4881619

Quote

If that patient dies, they’re included in the official daily death counts for the disease. Even if that individual had another underlying health problem, such as a heart condition, which was then exacerbated by the virus and resulted in a heart attack, their death would still be recorded as a death from COVID-19.

USA

https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2020/04/medical-experts-say-michigans-coronavirus-death-count-isnt-accurate-but-is-it-too-high-or-too-low.html

Quote

“I think a lot of clinicians are putting that condition (COVID-19) on death certificates when it might not be accurate because they died with coronavirus and not of coronavirus,” said Macomb County Chief Medical Examiner Daniel Spitz. “Are they entirely accurate? No. Are people dying of it? Absolutely. Are people dying of other things and coronavirus is maybe getting credit? Yeah, probably.”

Michigan doesn’t have a uniform process for testing individuals who die outside of hospitals and before they can be tested for the virus. Medical examiners, who investigate unnatural and unexpected deaths, are responsible for determining how those individuals died and who to test.

Inconsistency of reporting within different US states (no doubt there are differences in Provinces)

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200417/how-accurate-are-coronavirus-death-counts

Quote

April 17, 2020 -- If a loved one dies in Colorado, Ohio, Connecticut, and other states, and COVID-19 is suspected but there is no confirmed diagnosis, that death will now be included in the state’s death toll. But in Alabama, even those who had a lab-confirmed case may not be counted.

Italy

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/official-coronavirus-death-tolls-are-only-estimate-problem-n1183756

Quote

On the one hand, the Italian health system counts not only people who died directly from the coronavirus but also those who died of other causes, although they may have contracted the virus. Dr. Walter Ricciardi, the scientific adviser to Italy’s health minister, said last week.

In some cases the numbers appear to be inflated, and some under reported.  So really the medical experts do not have a clue as to how much or little of a problem this is. The testing, reporting and categorizing is different across the board.  It seems very unscientific of what the 'experts' are doing in this crisis.

On the other hand....

If you consider the notion that this is very communicable (spreads quickly), there would have been people in North American infected long before China even declared it a problem. Meaning it was already here in Canada weeks before the government decided to take any action. So a good chance, this thing has spread through the world and there is really no stopping it. Most of the people who get it .. I stress MOST, will recover.  Just like any other coronovirus types, only the ones with underlying health issues are going to be mostly affected.

 

[Argus]

On 4/30/2020 at 11:50 AM, New World Disorder said:

Depends on how draconian you want to get. Trading privacy for security means you get neither. I'd also want security experts to weigh in on the security of such an application before it's launched as this has the potential for a lot of abuse.

Just what privacy do you imagine you need to protect? You don't want people to know you shopped at Costco last Tuesday? You don't want them to know you went through the Tim Horton's drive-through on Thursday? You think keeping that secret is worth people dying?

You know Google already knows this about you, right? Which means the Chinese and Russians and NSA know about it.

[cannuck]

On 4/27/2020 at 9:42 AM, New World Disorder said:

It does not take a genius to understand that there was a problem in January. The lockdowns China did early on would make people like Hitler blush.

Hitler could not even imagine how effective  and thorough contact tracing was done with cell phones.   I did a little project for a Chinese province in the early '90s and found while doing the research, at that time fewer than 6% of the population that lived along rail lines had access to copper wire.  The rest of the country had no telecom.  As you can imagine, all of China pretty much figured this out and went fiber to hub and wireless to client.  So, pretty much EVERYONE in China has a cell phone, and they are all tracked (talk about Big Brother that would make Hitler green with envy).  They also had a LOT of fast turnaround serological testing that could identify someone as positive, negative or needs more testing.  At the moment you were tested (required at several checkpoints) an algorithm located everyone who had been near you in the max incubation period and informed both them and authorities that they had to go immediately to isolation, and of course determined who THEIR contacts were, etc.   All in less time than it would take Hitler's guys to hand someone a bar of soap.  Sometimes totalitarian power works against the people, and sometimes it works for them.

[Moonlight Graham]

3 hours ago, Argus said:

Just what privacy do you imagine you need to protect? You don't want people to know you shopped at Costco last Tuesday? You don't want them to know you went through the Tim Horton's drive-through on Thursday? You think keeping that secret is worth people dying?

You know Google already knows this about you, right? Which means the Chinese and Russians and NSA know about it.

Do you want the government to know where you are at all times?  Whose house you may have visited.  I know they can already have this knowledge, but I don't support it.

[eyeball]

4 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Do you want the government to know where you are at all times?  Whose house you may have visited.  I know they can already have this knowledge, but I don't support it.

In-camera lobbying would make it a lot easier for us to trust our governments. We know they won't support but too bad so sad.

[Moonlight Graham]

Just now, eyeball said:

In-camera lobbying would make it a lot easier for us to trust our governments. We know they won't support but too bad so sad.

In-camera means private.

[eyeball]

26 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

In-camera means private.

It simply means in-chambers behind a closed door. Legal definitions that make unambiguously clear what the difference between privacy and secrecy are as they relate to business conducted in public's domain can be spelled out in the legislation that outlaws lobbying in-camera.

I'd suggest we don't let them spell these definitions out behind closed doors though.

[cannuck]

9 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Do you want the government to know where you are at all times?  Whose house you may have visited.  I know they can already have this knowledge, but I don't support it.

Oh...I didn't realize we were going to discuss Huawei getting our G5 business.

[Argus]

13 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Do you want the government to know where you are at all times?  Whose house you may have visited.  I know they can already have this knowledge, but I don't support it.

I really don't care. But as you say, they already do if they want to and there's nothing we can do about it other than stop bringing our phones with us and stop buying things with credit, debt or other electronic means. Actually, I believe our cars are tracked now too, so we'd have to walk or take the bus. I'm just not willing to go through all that because I know the government doesn't give a crap where I've been or what I've been buying.

[New World Disorder]

18 hours ago, Argus said:

Just what privacy do you imagine you need to protect? You don't want people to know you shopped at Costco last Tuesday? You don't want them to know you went through the Tim Horton's drive-through on Thursday? You think keeping that secret is worth people dying?

You know Google already knows this about you, right? Which means the Chinese and Russians and NSA know about it.

Would you oppose government run cameras in your home to track you? How far is too far for you? When do you say 'no that is enough'?  This kind of stuff is easier for people to accept during a crisis. Otherwise most would be opposed to it.

Limit your use of those services or change services.

[New World Disorder]

15 hours ago, cannuck said:

 Sometimes totalitarian power works against the people, and sometimes it works for them.

Totalitarian by design means it does not work for the people.

[Moonlight Graham]

20 minutes ago, New World Disorder said:

Would you oppose government run cameras in your home to track you? How far is too far for you? When do you say 'no that is enough'?  This kind of stuff is easier for people to accept during a crisis. Otherwise most would be opposed to it.

Limit your use of those services or change services.

They already have cameras in our home to track us, and microphones.  It's all on our phones and other smart devices.  3 cheers to those idiots who install Google Home and those smart doorbell cameras.