Did Trudeau Fail His Country On Covid-19

[Zeitgeist]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Right....much variation.   Universal health care and national policy did not prevent such variation, so other factors are at play.

Ontario is on two tracks, with higher rates in the GTA.  Quebec is a bigger worry.  They needed to bring in the army medics.  Half of our deaths have been in long-term care facilities.  It has been asked whether the Wuhan approach of removing Covid patients from the facility immediately is better public health policy for both the patient and other residents.  It probably is, but some in our culture see doing that as an infringement on liberty.  

[bush_cheney2004]

I'm sure the epidemiologists will have plenty of peer reviewed papers to provide answers...years from now.

Meanwhile, citizens and cities have to tread water and bury the dead....today.

 

[OftenWrong]

21 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I think it’s about public health policy more than anything else.  We’ve been on a strict diet of it country-wide since early March.  Taiwan and South Korea had very strong policies and preparations.  I’m sure travel bans and, in the case of Australia, its island status, help.  Having so much cross border and international travel has certainly been a risk factor for Canada.  Our public health policy has hopefully saved our asses.  

Did you see the map here the other day showing how many flights go to NYC? Isolation from massive amounts of international air travel is a major factor.

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Did you see the map here the other day showing how many flights go to NYC? Isolation from massive amounts of international air travel is a major factor.

Yeah the flights to the States are ending.  Domestic flights will continue at reduced capacity.  Masks are required for passengers.  It’s a mess.  We will have to find a way to restart the economy soon.  

[OftenWrong]

4 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yeah the flights to the States are ending.  Domestic flights will continue at reduced

Those flight occurred in the first month after the virus was announced. That’s the time when people spread it to the rest of the world.

[Argus]

Tristan Hopper lays out exactly what many of us have been thinking about the way the govenrment handled the virus - or didn't.

Say, by some miracle, we get two months’ warning that the earthquake is going to hit. You’d obviously drop everything and focus on the pending disaster, right? You’d stock up on critical supplies, you’d ensure vulnerable populations were in a safe place (particularly the elderly) and you would be spending those two months constantly drilling the population on how to live and work through the crisis.

An earthquake is a bit different than a pandemic, but it’s safe to say that basically none of those things happened until COVID-19 had already established a major beachhead all across Canada.

It didn't need to be this bad

[Shady]

5 minutes ago, Argus said:

Tristan Hopper lays out exactly what many of us have been thinking about the way the govenrment handled the virus - or didn't.

Say, by some miracle, we get two months’ warning that the earthquake is going to hit. You’d obviously drop everything and focus on the pending disaster, right? You’d stock up on critical supplies, you’d ensure vulnerable populations were in a safe place (particularly the elderly) and you would be spending those two months constantly drilling the population on how to live and work through the crisis.

An earthquake is a bit different than a pandemic, but it’s safe to say that basically none of those things happened until COVID-19 had already established a major beachhead all across Canada.

It didn't need to be this bad

This is false, and more revisionist history.  We didn't get a warning of an earthquake.  It was more like a tremor.  China covered up the severity of the situation, and the data they released indicated a situation similar to SARS of 2002/2003.

[Shady]

On 4/21/2020 at 12:36 AM, Zeitgeist said:

Ontario is on two tracks, with higher rates in the GTA.  Quebec is a bigger worry.  They needed to bring in the army medics.  Half of our deaths have been in long-term care facilities.  It has been asked whether the Wuhan approach of removing Covid patients from the facility immediately is better public health policy for both the patient and other residents.  It probably is, but some in our culture see doing that as an infringement on liberty.  

Yes, isolating the high risk is much more efficient and effective than isolating everyone.

[New World Disorder]

Just now, Shady said:

This is false, and more revisionist history.  We didn't get a warning of an earthquake.  It was more like a tremor.  China covered up the severity of the situation, and the data they released indicated a situation similar to SARS of 2002/2003.

Ya think our leaders would have suspected something, no one seemed to have questioned the numbers the CCP put out. Not even the WHO! 

[Shady]

2 minutes ago, New World Disorder said:

Ya think our leaders would have suspected something, no one seemed to have questioned the numbers the CCP put out. Not even the WHO! 

I agree, but they also didn't question the numbers from SARS in 2002/2003 either.

[Argus]

1 minute ago, Shady said:

This is false, and more revisionist history.  We didn't get a warning of an earthquake.  It was more like a tremor.  China covered up the severity of the situation, and the data they released indicated a situation similar to SARS of 2002/2003.

Bullshit. Even ordinary people watching TV could see it was getting bad over there. They were quarantining entire cities and building new hospitals back in January. I was ordering N-95 masks and gloves. So was Alberta, Australia, and other countries.

Even if it had been SARS we should have been preparing, especially given that the number of travelers between here and China has gone up massively since the last SARS epidemic

[Shady]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

Bullshit. Even ordinary people watching TV could see it was getting bad over there.

That's just not true.  It was barely mentioned here until mid February.  The Democrats had several debates during January and February, and it was never brought up by the moderators or the candidates.  Mainstream media was issuing columns and stories about how it was still safe to travel to China.  The New York Times in February.

Numerous experts have said that the majority of people who contract coronavirus will experience it as a respiratory infection they will fully recover from. But the extreme reactions — the canceling of flights, closing of borders and level-four travel warnings — seem more appropriate for something much worse.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/05/opinion/china-travel-coronavirus.html

[Shady]

Image didn't upload

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by Shady

[Argus]

21 minutes ago, Shady said:

That's just not true.  It was barely mentioned here until mid February.  The Democrats had several debates during January and February, and it was never brought up by the moderators or the candidates.  Mainstream media was issuing columns and stories about how it was still safe to travel to China.  The New York Times in February.

Numerous experts have said that the majority of people who contract coronavirus will experience it as a respiratory infection they will fully recover from. But the extreme reactions — the canceling of flights, closing of borders and level-four travel warnings — seem more appropriate for something much worse.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/05/opinion/china-travel-coronavirus.html

I don't think I can express just how little I care about your 'numerous experts conclude' bullshit arguments, no matter how big the font is. I'm talking reality here, not models or pontificating experts. I knew people trying to find masks in January and they were already flying off the shelves of every company which sold them. Australia was already placing industrial sized orders, as was Taiwan, Singapore and South Korea. Not to mention Alberta. They were also all setting up screening at their borders and ramping up intensive tracking and tracing systems. There were 8 new cases in South Korea the other day. Australia had 17, with total deaths so far of 74. Don't give me any crap about that being a coincidence. They didn't need genius level intellects to notice what was going on there, and that if China was quarantining whole cities and provinces and frantically building emergency hospitals that this thing was highly contagious. They made preparations for a worst case scenario, which is what you're supposed to do in risk management. Meanwhile we did nothing.

Edited April 22, 2020 by Argus

[eyeball]

From the Nat. Post article.  It didn't need to be this bad

Quote

It’s very reasonable to ask whether it needed to be this bad.

No it didn't.  Leading to the next question why was it so bad?

It seems pretty simple, it struck at a point in time when public disbelief and mistrust in governments, media and expert advice are at an all time low coupled with public belief and faith in conspiracies, fake news and populist opinion being at an all time high.  Throw the way we conduct politics into the mix and it's very clear why we've been sitting ducks for years and quite literally asking for it.

Anyone who's been paying attention could see for years we wouldn't be able to co-operate our way out of a wet paper bag if our lives depended on it - take climate change for example. Same bucket but the COVID-19 shit just overflowed and overwhelmed us much faster than climate change shit is all.

If there is one single thing however that's screwed us the most its that so many politicians around the planet have put their own particular/peculiar interests first. Even letting this happen for only for a few days seems to have often been enough to tip circumstances favourably towards this pandemic.

Edited April 22, 2020 by eyeball

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Tristan Hopper lays out exactly what many of us have been thinking about the way the govenrment handled the virus - or didn't.

Hopefully this will lead us think about the way we govern ourselves because that is the real problem. 

The old question "Why has government been instituted at all?" "Because the passions of men will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice, without constraint" comes to mind.

Somehow we've managed to keep our passions in the forefront and force our governments to conform to our unreasonable unjust dictates often in the least constrained means possible.

[New World Disorder]

On 4/21/2020 at 12:36 AM, Zeitgeist said:

Ontario is on two tracks, with higher rates in the GTA.  Quebec is a bigger worry.  They needed to bring in the army medics.  Half of our deaths have been in long-term care facilities.  It has been asked whether the Wuhan approach of removing Covid patients from the facility immediately is better public health policy for both the patient and other residents.  It probably is, but some in our culture see doing that as an infringement on liberty.  

That shows the cracks in Quebec's long term care homes.  Negligence and profits seemed to be more of a factor that is contributing to deaths. Way more than this virus.  I would not want to put my aging parents into one of those homes.

[New World Disorder]

23 hours ago, Shady said:

I agree, but they also didn't question the numbers from SARS in 2002/2003 either.

Possibly the access to more online content these days. We also see the cozy relationship between the UN/WHO and the Chinese.  None of them know what Taiwan is.

Even China's revised numbers are total bunk. It does not match what we see in most other places.  Trudeau was waiting on the WHO to give them guidelines on how to handle this, that was a mistake and a failure.

[Argus]

37 minutes ago, New World Disorder said:

That shows the cracks in Quebec's long term care homes.  Negligence and profits seemed to be more of a factor that is contributing to deaths. Way more than this virus.  I would not want to put my aging parents into one of those homes.

It is not much better in the rest of Canada, or the rest of the world, for that matter.

[eyeball]

57 minutes ago, New World Disorder said:

Possibly the access to more online content these days. We also see the cozy relationship between the UN/WHO and the Chinese.  None of them know what Taiwan is.

Neither do we along with just about everyone else.

[New World Disorder]

I'd get behind Trudeau if he followed Trump's lead and stop funding the WHO.  But then China might kick in another 30 million to really show us how much they care. I guess it is true that everyone has a price!

[Shady]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

Neither do we along with just about everyone else.

What do you mean recognize?  Like it's existence?

[Shady]

4 minutes ago, New World Disorder said:

I'd get behind Trudeau if he followed Trump's lead and stop funding the WHO.  But then China might kick in another 30 million to really show us how much they care. I guess it is true that everyone has a price!

Definitely.  Nato countries should start they're own health organization and with draw from the current one.

[Argus]

42 minutes ago, New World Disorder said:

I'd get behind Trudeau if he followed Trump's lead and stop funding the WHO.  But then China might kick in another 30 million to really show us how much they care. I guess it is true that everyone has a price!

The US is not small enough for China to decide to make an example of. We, on the other hand, are the perfect size. Even mild protest of them could see them refusing to sell  us PPE equipment, and maybe even medicine. Not that they would 'refuse' of course. That's not how the game is played. We just wouldn't be able to find anyone willing to sell us any. We'd be told their order book is full and we could go to the back of the line.

[New World Disorder]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

The US is not small enough for China to decide to make an example of. We, on the other hand, are the perfect size. Even mild protest of them could see them refusing to sell  us PPE equipment, and maybe even medicine. Not that they would 'refuse' of course. That's not how the game is played. We just wouldn't be able to find anyone willing to sell us any. We'd be told their order book is full and we could go to the back of the line.

Canada cannot produce it's own PPE? That's sad.