Which (one) G7 country does not have high-speed rail?

[myata]

In this, 21st century. For about three decades, there was a talk about building a high-speed link Toronto to Montreal.

It shifted now a bit westward, Calgary to Edmonton (still no rail).

What, and where great conversations we will have next?

What a great nation (of talkers) we have become. The envy of the world.

[Michael Hardner]

Ok but the US *barely had it...

"

Amtrak Acela train at Old Saybrook, Connecticut

Amtrak's Acela, which reaches 150 mph (240 km/h) over 49.9 mi (80.3 km) of track and Brightline, which runs at 125 mph (201 km/h) in a dedicated ROW between Orlando and Cocoa, are the US's only high-speed rail services. "

 

From Wikipedia

 

We don't like taxing at the level we would need to, to fund these things.  And we don't have two cities at Orlando-Cocoa Beach distance, at 58 miles, try this out

[Queenmandy85]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Ok but the US *barely had it...

"

Amtrak Acela train at Old Saybrook, Connecticut

Amtrak's Acela, which reaches 150 mph (240 km/h) over 49.9 mi (80.3 km) of track and Brightline, which runs at 125 mph (201 km/h) in a dedicated ROW between Orlando and Cocoa, are the US's only high-speed rail services. "

 

From Wikipedia

 

We don't like taxing at the level we would need to, to fund these things.  And we don't have two cities at Orlando-Cocoa Beach distance, at 58 miles, try this out

How about Toronto to Calgary? 

Although, the way feelings in Alberta and Ontario are, People in one city may not want to travel to the other right now.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Queenmandy85

[DUI_Offender]

Edmonton-Calgary High Speed Rail Line

 

https://majorprojects.alberta.ca/details/Edmonton-Calgary-High-Speed-Rail-Line/4494

 

Prairie Link Rail Partnership (EllisDon & AECOM) is proposing to build a high speed rail link between Edmonton and Calgary. The project would allow passengers and freight to travel between the two cities at speeds up to 400 km/h.

On June 8, 2021, Prairie Link Rail Partnership announced an MOU with Alberta Transportation.  This is a private sector initiated unsolicited P3 proposal which the Government of Alberta is evaluating under an Unsolicited Framework process.

Design work is on-going and will continue for the next 6 months. Indigenous engagement has already commenced, and an advisory committee has been established.

Location on map is not exact and does not represent an accurate depiction of the proposed route.

Edited November 10, 2023 by DUI_Offender

[Perspektiv]

Canada is just not a country where this would economically make sense. The bulk of Canada's population is concentrated in several provinces. Within a tiny footprint within them, to boot.

The distance needed for say, Toronto to Calgary, would make more sense via flight.

I mean, even at 400km/h, you're still faster by flight. You'd need MAGLEV speeds to even compete. At that distance? 

Now, if you're looking at shorter distance like Toronto to Monntreal, and could cut this down to a quarter of the time, you likely would have an economically viable option. This would also likely be much cheaper by train.

China is king when it comes down to high speed rail, as is Europe. 

You're also dealing with far more population density per square mile.

In China's case, they have the largest advantage, since the government owns the land. 

Makes building as they please relatively easy. You don't have to worry about human rights when moving a house to maintain your routes. One of the costliest parts of such a project. 

Nobody will come close to them, as a result. Incredibly efficient train systems. I have yet to experience better.

[myata]

Toronto to Montreal (stops in Kingston, possibly Belleville) less than two hours at 300 km/h (Shinkansen, Japan) side link to Ottawa, another Montreal to Quebec City (an hour). Would makes all the sense in the world. A better one of course.

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, myata said:

Toronto to Montreal (stops in Kingston, possibly Belleville) less than two hours at 300 km/h (Shinkansen, Japan) side link to Ottawa, another Montreal to Quebec City (an hour). Would makes all the sense in the world. A better one of course.

I don't think we have the population or the likely use to support it.  Japan has 3 times as many people living in a space 1/3 the size of british columbia. The cost of highspeed rail makes  a little more sense for them.

[Perspektiv]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

I don't think we have the population or the likely use to support it.  Japan has 3 times as many people living in a space 1/3 the size of british columbia. The cost of highspeed rail makes  a little more sense for them.

Exactly. It makes more sense in the US.

I just don't see how you turn a profit on a product like this, in Canada.

I would much rather fly, personally.

I take a standard train or just drive, if the trek is less than 8 hours.

Its a tough sell for those who have cars like I do.

[CdnFox]

BTW - we havent done this yet on this thread , and it's kind of mandatory.  Enjoy

 

 

 

[Moonlight Graham]

Wouldn't a lot of deer and other animals get mowed down by high speed trains in Canada?

Going that fast on the ground would unnerve me.

[WestCanMan]

I don't think HSR is a big necessity here. 

In other countries they have a lot of multi-million population centres within 200 km of each other, in Canada it's just not like that. Aside from Mtl-Tor it's not a thing. 

Traffic between Edm/Cgy isn't such a big deal that HSR is necessary.

• Hwy 2 isn't overrun,
• the inconvenience of getting from one city to the other and then not having a car there outweighs the benefit of getting there in 1 hr instead of 3.  
• it costs 3-10 times as much as driving (a Tokyo/Kyoto one-way trip is $130 US, I can make that trip 3x with 60L of diesel)
• all the time you save on the train is eclipsed by the extra amount of time/money to get from place to place once you're there. 

Part of the reason that HSR is such a big deal in other places is that so many people there don't have cars. There are a lot of adults in cities like NY and Tokyo who don't even have drivers' licenses. That's not a thing in Canada.

The number of people without DL's in Canada isn't great enough to warrant a whole new - expensive - mode of transportation. 

[myata]

7 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

I would much rather fly, personally.

Shinkansen, 300 km/h. Toronto (center) to Montreal / Ottawa center in two hours.

Air: taxi or transtit to/from the airport, 0.5 hr x 2. Security check 1 hr min. The flight, 1 - 1.5 hours. Total 3.5 hours, a double. The price, double or more. Total metropolitan population, over 10 million.

Drive: who hucking knows how many hours, wasted.

The numbers, they are facts. They cannot lie. Nope we can't, shouldn't, couldnt' care.

Only in a strange, distorted Canada perception this wouldn't make sense. This just may be because in this 21st century it remains the only G7 - really? country without high-speed rail. Such a can of worms we better spent it - on what? The bureaucracy, taxis for bureaucrats non stop and 24/7? Entitlements and benefits?

21st century: no standard free service for the citizens to file annual taxes.

At which point sad and dysfunctional becomes ridiculous and a joke? We will forget what century it is and how things work in it. What, already?

 

[ExFlyer]

17 hours ago, CdnFox said:

I don't think we have the population or the likely use to support it.  Japan has 3 times as many people living in a space 1/3 the size of british columbia. The cost of highspeed rail makes  a little more sense for them.

I agree wholeheartedly.

There would not be a return on the investment or if there was, it would take 1000 years to pay for this. No one takes the train in  Canada.

[Michael Hardner]

11 hours ago, myata said:

We will forget what century it is and how things work in it. What, already?

 

Well why aren't we doing it?

[myata]

4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Well why aren't we doing it?

Because of inertia of the past; mental inertia and laziness. The next item folks will be downsizing on after homeownership nosedived will be car ownership. So no public transportation beyond the city. No easy and efficient transportation between major urban centers will dampen growth; exchange of ideas and urban development. Back to Victorian times being stuck in one place for life while one could travel across Europe in a day. Young dynamic population will move to more dynamic places and we will need to bring more low income folk from backholes of the world. At some point we will just slide back into the past, indefinitely. Canada has always been in the back of the pack, always catching up. But what if at some point the lead has grown too large to close?

[TreeBeard]

17 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Wouldn't a lot of deer and other animals get mowed down by high speed trains in Canada?

Going that fast on the ground would unnerve me.

The infrastructure is different than normal rail.  There are no crossings, it is fenced and/or elevated  whenever they travel fast. If they come to stops, they slow down to regular train speeds.  
 

 

[eyeball]

On 11/10/2023 at 8:21 AM, Perspektiv said:

In China's case, they have the largest advantage, since the government owns the land. 

 

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Well why aren't we doing it?

There's less basis for admiring the dictatorship required to get things done. We do have corruption I suppose but only enough to make people pissed-off it seems.

[SpankyMcFarland]

The US should have done better on its eastern coast, maybe its western one too. They have the people. It’s one of the perks of visiting Europe. 

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, myata said:

Because of inertia of the past; mental inertia and laziness. The next item folks will be downsizing on after homeownership nosedived will be car ownership. So no public transportation beyond the city. No easy and efficient transportation between major urban centers will dampen growth; exchange of ideas and urban development. Back to Victorian times being stuck in one place for life while one could travel across Europe in a day. Young dynamic population will move to more dynamic places and we will need to bring more low income folk from backholes of the world. At some point we will just slide back into the past, indefinitely. Canada has always been in the back of the pack, always catching up. But what if at some point the lead has grown too large to close?

BS.

You have no idea or concept of investment and return.

Your examples of high speed train usage is the stupidest examples even you have picked out of your ass.

[Perspektiv]

9 hours ago, myata said:

Air: taxi or transtit to/from the airport, 0.5 hr x 2.

So you wouldn't need to travel and potentially park to take a train? 

People would willfully forgo their need to have that convenience?

10 hours ago, myata said:

Security check 1 hr min.

You're leaving out the restaurants, bars and pubs that you can wait in for your flight. Duty free shops. 

Depending on the airport, some have premium lounges. Some airports are so beautiful, you almost have to be reminded your flight is about to board.

If you have garbage train stations like some Via rail stations, nobody is going to take your train unless they have to.

I only take the train for business, because I have no choice.

I prefer the airport.

Of course there are horrible airports (Newark, I am looking at you, to mention one), so I avoid them. 

Also, you're omitting that many trains will have you show up at least 30 minutes prior to departure. While much shorter, you can't ignore that trains don't take 5 minutes to fill carriages with people.

I mean, you're likely saving an hour worth of time, when you truly crunch numbers.

Okay, so its faster. But is it better?

Part of your business plan is ensuring you can answer "why train instead of airplane"?

If that answer isn't resounding, it would make more sense to simply take the train to the airport.

[Zeitgeist]

On 11/10/2023 at 1:54 PM, myata said:

Toronto to Montreal (stops in Kingston, possibly Belleville) less than two hours at 300 km/h (Shinkansen, Japan) side link to Ottawa, another Montreal to Quebec City (an hour). Would makes all the sense in the world. A better one of course.

The high frequency rail line they’re building actually goes through Peterborough to Ottawa then to Montreal, I think. It’s not through Kingston, though that slow route might still be maintained. The idea is that it’s faster because it’s a separate line from freight, dedicated specifically to passengers, but to my knowledge the train sets that will run on it won’t be much faster; they’ll just slow down less because they won’t face freight traffic. The sets can be upgraded over time to be faster, but true high speed in that range of 250-400 km/hr requires replacing track that has crossings, certain degrees of bend, etc.  That’s a bigger program that our provincial and federal governments always chicken out from backing. The Windsor to Quebec City Corridor always made sense for this, because Quebec and Ontario destinations are the only realistic destinations for most Ontarians and Montrealers.  The East Coast is too far without at least 9 days off, unless you’re flying.

The problem with the distances between Toronto and Montreal or Toronto and Ottawa is that, at a 6 and 5 hour drive respectively, these trips are hard to squeeze into a weekend.

Get the train trips between Toronto and Montreal down to less than 3 hours and people will hop on the train on a Friday after work, eat in the dining car, and still have a Friday and Saturday night out before having to return home.  This option would give the people of both provinces so many more recreational and business opportunities.  

Edited November 11, 2023 by Zeitgeist

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, myata said:

Because of inertia of the past; mental inertia and laziness.  ?

 I'm sure if I did a little research on my own I could find some other reasons. Such as the cost perhaps?

[Zeitgeist]

12 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

 I'm sure if I did a little research on my own I could find some other reasons. Such as the cost perhaps?

There’s a business case for KW to Toronto to Montreal. Ottawa would probably be included for political reasons. The Ontario and Quebec governments were pushing for it, including a Toronto to London connection. To my mind the Feds should push through a Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal HSR and let the provinces build fast local connections to Toronto and Montreal.  Alberta can afford to subsidize a Calgary-Edmonton HSR with federal and private funding. That’s all I realistically see for HSR in Canada in my lifetime.  The dream for Ontarians would be to reach Detroit and Buffalo by HSR and continue onto American HSR networks.

Our feds can’t even get people through airport security or issue passports, so none of this is likely to happen while anyone here is alive.

High frequency rail is better than nothing, but it’s not going to get you between Montreal and Toronto in substantially less time than current trains, at least with what is in the works. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Zeitgeist

[TreeBeard]

It might make some sense in central Canada, and into the USA.  But, it would take massive government investment.  Conservative heads would explode at the thought of the feds and Ontario investing billions in high speed rail.  

Would Albertans be happy to spend federal tax dollars subsidizing Ontario transportation?  

Are Provinces a detriment to Canada?  Norway doesn’t have the issue of arbitrary lines within their national map fighting over petty differences between them. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by TreeBeard

[Zeitgeist]

18 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

It might make some sense in central Canada, and into the USA.  But, it would take massive government investment.  Conservative heads would explode at the thought of the feds and Ontario investing billions in high speed rail.  

Would Albertans be happy to spend federal tax dollars subsidizing Ontario transportation?  

Are Provinces a detriment to Canada?  Norway doesn’t have the issue of arbitrary lines within their national map fighting over petty differences between them. 

It’s hard to get much done federally because there are few national projects in which all provinces see the benefit.  Whenever the federal government decides to create and pay for a new program, there are provinces that already have such a program.  However, if greenhouse gas emissions are so important to the Feds, BC treehuggers, and Quebec language fascists, I think HSR ticks a lot of boxes.  My guess is that at least a quarter of domestic flights are in that Windsor-Quebec City Corridor.  How many cars make trips along this corridor?  It would reduce fight and auto trips, and improve highway traffic flows.

So you help hit emission reduction targets, but you also improve productivity, service trade flows, tourism, and quality of life.

I live in a Toronto suburb with a VIA and GO station.  I would take that train to Toronto Union and hop on a 2.5 hour train to Montreal instead of driving. I’d pay good money for it.   I think it would be very popular.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Zeitgeist