Canada's commitment to NATO, and what of the possible new target of 3 % of GDP

[Army Guy]

Talk in NATO right now is about rising the new percentage of GDP to 3 %, next year over 20 NATO nations or the majority will be at 2 percent or more, with even more getting close to that target, Now the discussion of raising it even higher, is under way as new threats emerge, in Europe, and the Pacific..

Justin has already made it very clear that Canada will not be meeting any 2 % goals, he is more than happy at 1.29, which when you break that down with liberal added expenses they spend more like just over 1 % on the military itself, added expenses such as RCMP entire budget . emergency preparedness budget, veterans pensions etc... that most country's do NOT include into their calculations.. Yes the Liberals are investing funding into our military, and Kudos for them doing that, but really did they really have a chioce, 40 plus year old fighters, ships, let not even talk about the army... it was that or keep them at home, and well history has shown us Liberals love using their military , just not very good at funding it, and to keep it honest the conservatives are not much better...

The question here is will the people agree to spend this amount on our military, and according to the media and this article it amounts to more than 18 more billion a year, thats a lot of tidbits...And if we decide nope we don't want to play how important is being in NATO to Canada, how does that reflect on our sovereignty, our seat on world stage or for that matter any other defensive agreement we have signed on to... and what would happen if NATO asked us to leave...

NATO has been very patient todate, but close allies have decided to move on, leaving Canada in the dust, they no longer include Canada in most theaters of concern like 5 eyes, and NATO have been disappointed to many times, for them to put any trust in what our government really says or wants, it's commitments ring hallow in the grand picture...to little to late...lots of examples to pick from...

 

 

U.K. defence secretary urges Canada to hit NATO military spending target (msn.com)

[herbie]

Like I said before: those who think commitment can only be judged financially, the problem can be resolved by Canada stocking up on $1000 hammers and $6,000 topilet seats for the military.

Or we could spend half on a new shipyard in Quebec and build an aircraft carrier.

[August1991]

I strongly prefer that Canada leave NATO.

==

This NATO regime was designed to defend ourselves against the Soviet Union, Communism. The Soviets are no longer a threat.

=======

IMHO, the "Vietnam War" was in fact a battle -like Dunkerque- in a larger Cold War that America ultimately won.

We have no need for NATO. 

Edited June 30, 2023 by August1991

[August1991]

Army Guy,

I feel very strongly about this.

[myata]

But of course, at the time of a brutal home invasion by an armed robber your best course of action is to disarm and talk to him about universal peace and goodness. Anyone like to show how it works in reality?

[Moonbox]

7 hours ago, August1991 said:

I strongly prefer that Canada leave NATO.

==

This NATO regime was designed to defend ourselves against the Soviet Union, Communism. The Soviets are no longer a threat.

The Soviets are no longer a threat, he says, whilst its revanchist successor state just invaded its eastern european neighbor last year.  ??

 

 

[ExFlyer]

9 hours ago, herbie said:

Like I said before: those who think commitment can only be judged financially, the problem can be resolved by Canada stocking up on $1000 hammers and $6,000 topilet seats for the military.

Or we could spend half on a new shipyard in Quebec and build an aircraft carrier.

An age old myth. Regurgitated by everyone that is anti military...even though the myth is an American one.

An aircraft carrier for Canada would be as useful and functional as our submarine fleet LOL

13 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Talk in NATO right now is about rising the new percentage of GDP to 3 %, next year over 20 NATO nations or the majority will be at 2 percent or more, with even more getting close to that target, Now the discussion of raising it even higher, is under way as new threats emerge, in Europe, and the Pacific..

Justin has already made it very clear that Canada will not be meeting any 2 % goals, he is more than happy at 1.29, which when you break that down with liberal added expenses they spend more like just over 1 % on the military itself, added expenses such as RCMP entire budget . emergency preparedness budget, veterans pensions etc... that most country's do NOT include into their calculations.. Yes the Liberals are investing funding into our military, and Kudos for them doing that, but really did they really have a chioce, 40 plus year old fighters, ships, let not even talk about the army... it was that or keep them at home, and well history has shown us Liberals love using their military , just not very good at funding it, and to keep it honest the conservatives are not much better...

The question here is will the people agree to spend this amount on our military, and according to the media and this article it amounts to more than 18 more billion a year, thats a lot of tidbits...And if we decide nope we don't want to play how important is being in NATO to Canada, how does that reflect on our sovereignty, our seat on world stage or for that matter any other defensive agreement we have signed on to... and what would happen if NATO asked us to leave...

NATO has been very patient todate, but close allies have decided to move on, leaving Canada in the dust, they no longer include Canada in most theaters of concern like 5 eyes, and NATO have been disappointed to many times, for them to put any trust in what our government really says or wants, it's commitments ring hallow in the grand picture...to little to late...lots of examples to pick from...

 

 

U.K. defence secretary urges Canada to hit NATO military spending target (msn.com)

Canada's financial commitment to NATO is the same as it was since joining NATO. It has not changed regardless who has been in power. This is not a "Justin" issue, this is a Canadian commitment issue.

We make promises but we never follow through. Our Climate promises are in the same basket. Lots of promises by all governments and yet, we cannot or will not follow through with actual results.

Canada and Canadians will never agree to spending that kind of money to NATO. Social programs are far more important to them

[Aristides]

In 1960 our military spending was 4% of GDP, it didn't drop below 2% until 1988.

It's disturbing to see Canada so reluctant to increase its capability as world wide tensions increase. 

[WestCanMan]

17 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Talk in NATO right now is about rising the new percentage of GDP to 3 %, next year over 20 NATO nations or the majority will be at 2 percent or more, with even more getting close to that target, Now the discussion of raising it even higher, is under way as new threats emerge, in Europe, and the Pacific..

When Trump called out his fellow NATO leaders for not living up to their NATO commitments all of the leftards in NA universally hated him for it, now all of a sudden it's the leftards who want to give billions and billions of dollars away to fight a war.

Their lack of foresight is always at the forefront of everything they say and do and the peons like us are the ones who pay in terms of lives and tax dollars. 

These leftard leaders don't realize that this isn't like the old days where you could beat plowshares into swords, or just make a bunch of cheap rifles and then go win win win, building a modern army takes time and especially a lot of research and development.

Trump knew that, but Trudeau and Biden felt like nice socks and doing secret deals with the Gov't of China's bank would be good enough. 

[TreeBeard]

12 hours ago, August1991 said:

The Soviets are no longer a threat.

 

Russia isn’t a threat to our allies?

[ExFlyer]

3 hours ago, Aristides said:

In 1960 our military spending was 4% of GDP, it didn't drop below 2% until 1988.

It's disturbing to see Canada so reluctant to increase its capability as world wide tensions increase. 

And has rapidly declined ever since.... regardless who has been in power.

Actually, dropped to below 2% in 1970.  

NATO is not "world wide" it is North Atlantic Treaty Organization.

 

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS?locations=CA

 

[Army Guy]

14 hours ago, August1991 said:

Army Guy,

I feel very strongly about this.

Every Canadian is entitled to an opinion, including you...  What do you think the consequences of leaving NATO would be. Hard to have a foreign policy with no means to implement or enforce it...how would that effect our trade, technology transfers, what other defensive agreements do we leave ? Not that we have a global reputation but that is something else to consider. And do we even need a military ?  

[PIK]

NATO is important, now the UN....

[Army Guy]

15 hours ago, herbie said:

Like I said before: those who think commitment can only be judged financially, the problem can be resolved by Canada stocking up on $1000 hammers and $6,000 topilet seats for the military.

Or we could spend half on a new shipyard in Quebec and build an aircraft carrier.

Then please do tell us how do we judge our commitments if not financially ? 

This liberal government agreed and signed onto a new NATO policy stating we would agree to spend unto 2 % of GDP...and once back into Canada he announces to the world we have no intentions of spending 2 %, and to confirm all of that he tells our close allies we will never meet the 2 % mark... which begs the question why travel all the way to Belgium to sign a document then tell the world we have no intention to honor that commitment...

 

[Army Guy]

6 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Canada's financial commitment to NATO is the same as it was since joining NATO. It has not changed regardless who has been in power. This is not a "Justin" issue, this is a Canadian commitment issue.

We make promises but we never follow through. Our Climate promises are in the same basket. Lots of promises by all governments and yet, we cannot or will not follow through with actual results.

Canada and Canadians will never agree to spending that kind of money to NATO. Social programs are far more important to them

True enough every PM in the past has been guilty of neglecting our military in some form or another...What is true, is Justin has been in power for the last 8 plus years, and could have fixed somethings in our military realm... he traveled to Belgium and signed a new NATO pact agreement stating we would commit to the 2 % mark, then flew home and told the world we had no intention of doing any of that...Thats strictly on him...

There are polls out there that would suggest Canadians would agree to having a military that is capable of carrying out al of its assigned tasks... I really think most Canadians have no idea what our military does for them on a daily basis, nor do they have a clue in what state their military is in... 

As for social programs , i think we are very fortunate to have as many as we have, but lets be honesty, do we need all of them, or are we just creating a dependency on them. 

[herbie]

35 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Then please do tell us how do we judge our commitments if not financially ? 

Gonna judge our commitment in Afghanistan by what we spent rather than what we did?
Gonna claim out geographical and political positions are not 'contributions' too?

Or be as stupid and whiny as Trump and ONLY look at money. Go ahead he was dumb enough to boot us out, maybe Iceland too.

But don't suggest I disagree with spending more to improve and increase what we do have. For the 2nd biggest country on Earth to have less planes than one US carrier and a mere handful of ships to guard 3 coass is simply unacceptable.

[Michael Hardner]

5 minutes ago, herbie said:

Gonna judge our commitment in Afghanistan by what we spent rather than what we did? 

I'd like to think a conservative would assess the VALUE of a purchase.

"Guess what ?  We saved Democracy in Afghanistan.... $5 billion"

Like my dad used to always show off "new" clothes by telling us the price ?

"See these shoes ?  FIVE BUCKS !"

[Dougie93]

15 hours ago, August1991 said:

I strongly prefer that Canada leave NATO.

NATO allows Canada to be a shameless free rider

because the 1949 Washington Treaty does not bind Canada to do anything in particular

these NATO MoU "targets" of 2% or 3% are entirely non binding, Canada is free to ignore them

nobody can actually be "kicked out" of NATO for failing to meet such targets

none the less, Canada actually spends a huge amount on DND

the 6th largest defence budget in NATO in real dollars spent

Canada just spends it all on overhead,

the entire defence budget is consumed by bureaucracy for its own sake

this suits Canada's utterly unmartial ruling class perfectly

moreover, the ruling class is so inept, they couldn't build an operational force even if they wanted to

they certainly could not build a military which could function without America propping Canada up

so you're stuck with NATO, forever

[herbie]

Speaking of shoes, I once went into a Fields where a friend worked and banged a flip-flop on the counter. Snarled "I just bought these here two summers ago for $6 an they're worn out already! What you gonna do about it?"

She face palmed and mumbled "If I didn't hear stuff like that several times a week I'd laugh"

On subject again: I do not object to increasing military spending, just on how, when and why. First we must define an exact role in the NATO cause and stick to that. Same with our own defence needs.

[I am Groot]

16 hours ago, August1991 said:

I strongly prefer that Canada leave NATO.

==

This NATO regime was designed to defend ourselves against the Soviet Union, Communism. The Soviets are no longer a threat.

=======

IMHO, the "Vietnam War" was in fact a battle -like Dunkerque- in a larger Cold War that America ultimately won.

We have no need for NATO. 

Because of the fantastic military, we have that's undermanned and poorly equipped but is bilingual, right?

3 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

Russia isn’t a threat to our allies?

Quebec has no allies, except maybe France, and he figures France can look after itself.

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

True enough every PM in the past has been guilty of neglecting our military in some form or another...What is true, is Justin has been in power for the last 8 plus years, and could have fixed somethings in our military realm... he traveled to Belgium and signed a new NATO pact agreement stating we would commit to the 2 % mark, then flew home and told the world we had no intention of doing any of that...Thats strictly on him...

There are polls out there that would suggest Canadians would agree to having a military that is capable of carrying out al of its assigned tasks... I really think most Canadians have no idea what our military does for them on a daily basis, nor do they have a clue in what state their military is in... 

As for social programs , i think we are very fortunate to have as many as we have, but lets be honesty, do we need all of them, or are we just creating a dependency on them. 

Every government in the past 40 years has made promises and, like all political promises, has failed. Yes, we have gotten some new equipment but, we have also cut our military personnel numbers.

Most (over 40%) of the DND (military and civilian) budget is for salaries. Does not leave much for procurement and operations.

You are right, most Canadians have no idea what the military does for them every day. My 35 year tenure in SAR was not spent punching holes in the sky. I cannot b e precise but there are about or more than 1000 per year, country wide.

As for social programs, that is what gets votes.... give freebies, get b]votes.

[eyeball]

4 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

Russia isn’t a threat to our allies?

I think the fact Putin is an ally of our deplorables is more troubling.

[Dougie93]

46 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Quebec has no allies, except maybe France, and he figures France can look after itself.

France is at least a real country, unlike "Canada" which is ally to none by the Chinese Communists now

[Dougie93]

24 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I think the fact Putin is an ally of our deplorables is more troubling.

pay no attention to the fact that your own "Progressive" cohorts are the ones

selling you down the river to Beijing

don't expect conservatives to save you from yourselves

[Army Guy]

3 hours ago, herbie said:

Gonna judge our commitment in Afghanistan by what we spent rather than what we did?
Gonna claim out geographical and political positions are not 'contributions' too?

Or be as stupid and whiny as Trump and ONLY look at money. Go ahead he was dumb enough to boot us out, maybe Iceland too.

But don't suggest I disagree with spending more to improve and increase what we do have. For the 2nd biggest country on Earth to have less planes than one US carrier and a mere handful of ships to guard 3 coass is simply unacceptable.

What did WE do in Afghanistan...Not everyone likes to hear this but here goes. it was our soldiers that sacrificed everything, their blood , sweat, tears... most if not all of those expenditures spent on Afghanistan came out of DND budget...so the military suffered through major cut backs in training in Canada , equipment purchases, not to mention the pain and suffering of our troops did not gather any sympathy until enough had been killed, or maimed...So i'm not sure what commitment Canadians made in Afghanistan...

Sorry you'll have to explain to me what our geographical and political positions where , could you list a few of them...would it be the same as bring back Afghans that helped our soldiers back to Canada, could you please explain by what you meant.

One of the main reasons they look at the financial picture, is it looks in details such as new equipment purchases, soldiers pay, infra structure investment, quality of equipment, current upgrades of equipment , training, training with other countries, a whole long list of things can be determined when looking at the report...

I don't recall judging you on anything, and if i did i did not do it intentional, that being said i think their is a poll out there some where recently that says the majority of Canadians would like to see more spent on the military...Is it the 2 % of GDP, thats a reasonable figure considering everything our military is asked to do... and with the climate crises ongoing not sure why this would not be more expectable, i mean in reality our military has responded to every major disaster in Canada, and it's soldiers have never once said no...every time we are accepted with open arms... except when it comes to actual spending, then it's like we are that friend that only comes around when there is money, but never really pays any of it back...

Edited June 30, 2023 by Army Guy