Emergency Act commission

[ExFlyer]

39 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

It is more expensive and it is at times hard to find a product not made in China. That does not mean I will not go out of my way to find them...if I can.

My point Flyer, is that we made this mess by being short sighted.

"Oh look...$2 shirts." We eat up the cheap-assed crap and think we've done well for ourselves, but have unknowingly hurt our own nation.

"Oh look...we can have that made in China for half the price." But do the savings make it to the Canadian consumer?

Like the entirety of western civilization, we've opted for cheap-assed crap and huge corporate profits...and have dug ourselves into a massive hole. I want to dig us out of that hole. I cannot accept this current situation, as it is not good for our nation in the long run.

I agree and said so. We, liberal and conservatives, have sold ourselves to China and other countries because of our desire for cheaper goods. And it is a lot more than just t shirts.

We Canadians  have become consumers and not manufacturers.

Also, as I said, while you may want to disassociate form Chinese made goods, even your favourite brands are made in China or other cheap labour countries. To top it off, we buy goods from the USA but their point of origin is China.

All I am saying is, in reality, we gave ourselves, willingly, to China and other low labour countries. I am afraid you really have little chance of not accepting the situation.

[Moonbox]

On 10/22/2022 at 10:04 PM, Army Guy said:

No, it is not a poor augment, when we describe extremists like the media, government, us the people we think of terrorist groups

It's a very poor argument.  Extremist isn't the same word as terrorist, nor should it be considered as such.  Extremism describes ideology.  Terrorism describes violence, particularly for intimidation purposes.  You can be an extremist without being a terrorist, though it's unlikely you'd be a terrorist without extremist ideology.    

This is a you thing, in that you the person (rather than "us the people") can't/won't make the distinction. 

Pat King and Tamara Lich can be fairly described as extremists.  They cannot be described as terrorists, nor do I think anyone actually thinks they could be.  When we consider clowns like these, we aren't worried they're going to bomb parliament.  We just think they're idiots.

[Army Guy]

3 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

As one official testified, That they all got it wrong and did not anticipate the amount of people and the protesters.

He admitted that they all got it wrong and the plans drawn up as a result of initial reports were useless and the plans from that point on were very fluid.

You, as a soldier , must know how this can happen and what occurs when your battle plan is completely out of scope when you arrive on scene.

The fact remains that the initial reports made by CSIS and RCMP, OPP stated that there was little to no chance of violence in regard to the protest, and that the governments (federal or provincial) did not receive any other reports that changed that status.   

Yes, I understand that any plan only survives until contact with the enemy has been made, but in this case one individual city of Ottawa police made the wrong outcome, by stating it was a matter of national security, when everyone else was reporting there was no threat. 

My question would be if you were the federal Government, where you would be basing most of your opinions on, local police intel, or security apparatus which does this on a national basis. If there was not threat to national security, then in a nutshell why was the EMA invoked. 

[Army Guy]

22 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

It's a very poor argument.  Extremist isn't the same word as terrorist, nor should it be considered as such.  Extremism describes ideology.  Terrorism describes violence, particularly for intimidation purposes.  You can be an extremist without being a terrorist, though it's unlikely you'd be a terrorist without extremist ideology.    

This is a you thing, in that you the person (rather than "us the people") can't/won't make the distinction. 

Pat King and Tamara Lich can be fairly described as extremists.  They cannot be described as terrorists, nor do I think anyone actually thinks they could be.  When we consider clowns like these, we aren't worried they're going to bomb parliament.  We just think they're idiots.

Alright let's use your definition for a second, you can't be a terrorist without an extremist ideology, now tell me what these terrorists and these Canadians have in common, what in your opinion makes them extremists in the context that they would share this definition with terrorists' ideology. 

My argument was simple stating that the word extremist was over the top. Since when do we start describing Canadians as extremist becasue we do not share the same opinions on all topics. If that was the case then everyone on the left, right and center would be all extremists and the word would lose all its meaning would it not. 

Kind of like calling someone a NAZI, when they do not share or hold any of that group's ideology. 

You said terrorism describes violence, and yet this is exactly what the governments wanted everyone to think was going to happen, this is how they framed their narrative, this is how they tied other events to prove their theory's like the Nazi flag, apartment fire, attack on the unknown soldier's tomb, and of course the use of the word extremists, when really what we had was at worst clowns and idiots, that did not share the same opinions as most.

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, ExFlyer said:

I agree and said so. We, liberal and conservatives, have sold ourselves to China and other countries because of our desire for cheaper goods. And it is a lot more than just t shirts.

We Canadians  have become consumers and not manufacturers.

Also, as I said, while you may want to disassociate form Chinese made goods, even your favourite brands are made in China or other cheap labour countries. To top it off, we buy goods from the USA but their point of origin is China.

All I am saying is, in reality, we gave ourselves, willingly, to China and other low labour countries. I am afraid you really have little chance of not accepting the situation.

Well...I'm concerned about China. Not India or any other country.

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

More to the point, "no trade" with China would tank the economy, period.

Populists suggest that we should make everything domestically.  And as to where the Capital would come from to create this home side industry, and how it would be managed, the answer has to be massive government intervention in markets.

So revealing, this paradox.  They hate Trudeau, and yet under this vision he would lead Soviet Canuckistan, and decide who wins and loses...

The only massive government intervention would be the imposition of very high tariffs.

But instead, the twits in charge...including the Harper government...decided to opt for a short-sighted addiction to cheap-assed goods from China.

Trade tariffs are not new, nor are the some sort of Soviet application. But...over the top fantasies are your bag...aren't they.

[Moonbox]

29 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Alright let's use your definition for a second, you can't be a terrorist without an extremist ideology, now tell me what these terrorists and these Canadians have in common, what in your opinion makes them extremists in the context that they would share this definition with terrorists' ideology. 

Extremism isn't an ideology itself.  It refers to and describes extreme ideology, whatever that may be.  You could be a feminist extremist and insist on parading yourself naked in public spaces because you figure that's it's your body and that's your "right", but you'd have literally nothing in common with an Islamic terrorist/extremist, would you?  

29 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

My argument was simple stating that the word extremist was over the top. Since when do we start describing Canadians as extremist becasue we do not share the same opinions on all topics. If that was the case then everyone on the left, right and center would be all extremists and the word would lose all its meaning would it not. 

It's not over the top.  The word extremism is self-describing, and you're using it wrong.  Folks like Tamara Lich or Pat King aren't just everyday Canadians who disagreed with the vaccine mandates.  Those two clowns are extremists.  If your protest/convoy/whatever is being led and organized by people like that, it's not unreasonable or surprising for the whole movement to get lumped in with that brand. 

I had a lot of sympathy for folks who disagreed with vaccine mandates on an economic basis.  At a certain point I think the cost exceeded the benefit of keeping things locked down for 2 years.  When that argument gets co-opted by a bunch of idiots telling everyone that COVID is fake and a conspiracy from the WEF or whatever, that's unfortunate, but they could have avoided it.  

[myata]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

Pat King and Tamara Lich can be fairly described as extremists. 

By who? Who defines and described what constitutes "extremism"? This is a simple question. Who gets to define, and then pump into the minds by incessant propaganda? Mr Xi gets it, or maybe someone else somewhere too?

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

The fact remains that the initial reports made by CSIS and RCMP, OPP stated that there was little to no chance of violence in regard to the protest, and that the governments (federal or provincial) did not receive any other reports that changed that status.   

Yes, I understand that any plan only survives until contact with the enemy has been made, but in this case one individual city of Ottawa police made the wrong outcome, by stating it was a matter of national security, when everyone else was reporting there was no threat. 

My question would be if you were the federal Government, where you would be basing most of your opinions on, local police intel, or security apparatus which does this on a national basis. If there was not threat to national security, then in a nutshell why was the EMA invoked. 

Yes, the fact is, initial reports. The ones presented way before anything happened or anyone showed up.
The fact and far more important fact is they were overwhelmed and overcome by far more people than the reports even alluded to. They stayed longer than the initial reports alluded to as well.

So, the initial reports were proven wrong and were useless and new plans and estimates had to be written and enacted. You even admit that "any plan only survives until contact with the enemy has been made" and that is, in fact, what happened. The plan failed and new ones had to be composed.

Lucas was not the only one that said the initial reports were very wrong, all the police spokesmen so far stated the initial reports were incorrect assumptions.

The federal government was not involved in the "initial plans".  The initial plans were from OPP, RCMP and Ottawa police.

We have to wait for the testimony of officials after the initial contact happened. Some time next week, or the week after I suspect.

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

Well...I'm concerned about China. Not India or any other country.

Well, one before the other I guess.

The Canadian economics of it involve them all.

[ExFlyer]

13 minutes ago, myata said:

By who? Who defines and described what constitutes "extremism"? This is a simple question. Who gets to define, and then pump into the minds by incessant propaganda? Mr Xi gets it, or maybe someone else somewhere too?

The point being made was the difference between extremist and terrorist. It was a valid point and comparison.

The speaker, the author the person who responds gets to define... unless you have some other response.

I define you as a confused wacko by your incessant propaganda. My definition and is valid.

Edited October 26, 2022 by ExFlyer

[Army Guy]

7 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Extremism isn't an ideology itself.  It refers to and describes extreme ideology, whatever that may be.  You could be a feminist extremist and insist on parading yourself naked in public spaces because you figure that's it's your body and that's your "right", but you'd have literally nothing in common with an Islamic terrorist/extremist, would you?  

It's not over the top.  The word extremism is self-describing, and you're using it wrong.  Folks like Tamara Lich or Pat King aren't just everyday Canadians who disagreed with the vaccine mandates.  Those two clowns are extremists.  If your protest/convoy/whatever is being led and organized by people like that, it's not unreasonable or surprising for the whole movement to get lumped in with that brand. 

I had a lot of sympathy for folks who disagreed with vaccine mandates on an economic basis.  At a certain point I think the cost exceeded the benefit of keeping things locked down for 2 years.  When that argument gets co-opted by a bunch of idiots telling everyone that COVID is fake and a conspiracy from the WEF or whatever, that's unfortunate, but they could have avoided it.  

I'm sorry i just cannot fathom your side of the argument, In the first para, you can't explain extreme ideology, and yet your 100 % positive that these convoy wingnuts are extremist. And we have already gone over the Islamic terrorist thing, terrorist can be of all colors and races, however most are Islamic, that's not me being racist, but fact.  

I'm not using it at all, in fact i thought it was over the top use of the word. How or what makes them (convoy activists) extremists? 

I can see when their ideas tend to make a sharp left turn from what yours are that there is a tendency to call this people wingnuts, idiots, or clowns, conspiracy freaks but at what point do we call them extremists. to me the extremist definition would be that incel guy that drove his van into a crowded sidewalk, with the intent of making his point through violence...taking his point of view to the extreme.  Having a guy shout at me because he thinks vaccines are trash or the moon is made of cheese is at best a wingnut. 

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

Since when do we start describing Canadians as extremist becasue we do not share the same opinions on all topics. If that was the case then everyone on the left, right and center would be all extremists and the word would lose all its meaning would it not. 

Kind of like calling someone a NAZI, when they do not share or hold any of that group's ideology. 

Or a commies and even both at the same time. This has been going on for years and years in Canada.  We are all extremists who cannot understand one another any more.

At least the people in the Tower of Babel tried to co-operate.

[eyeball]

26 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

I'm sorry i just cannot fathom your side of the argument,

Do you really want to?

[Moonbox]

44 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

I'm sorry i just cannot fathom your side of the argument, In the first para, you can't explain extreme ideology, and yet your 100 % positive that these convoy wingnuts are extremist.

You're tripping over semantics.  When I referred to "extreme ideology, whatever that may be," I was saying that it can span any number of different worldviews.  I explained the term.  I explained the differences between what you think it means and what it actually means.  I even gave you a really clear example (the feminist flasher) and compared her to an ISIS suicide bomber.  Both are extremists, only one is a terrorist.  If that doesn't register with you, I'm afraid this is purely a you problem.  

44 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

I'm not using it at all, in fact i thought it was over the top use of the word. How or what makes them (convoy activists) extremists? 

The only thing that's over the top is your insistence on misunderstanding the term and applying unintended meaning towards it as a source for your outrage.  

1 hour ago, myata said:

By who? Who defines and described what constitutes "extremism"? This is a simple question. Who gets to define, and then pump into the minds by incessant propaganda? Mr Xi gets it, or maybe someone else somewhere too?

That's actually a really good question, but one (probably) without a satisfying answer.  The base word "extreme" is inherently subjective and relative,  so it's very much a matter of perspective and degrees.  Being an anti-abortionist doesn't make you an extremist, for example, but spending your time heckling women at abortion clinics and telling them they're going to burn in hell for it (IMO) does.  

Edited October 26, 2022 by Moonbox

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, myata said:

By who? Who defines and described what constitutes "extremism"? This is a simple question. Who gets to define, and then pump into the minds by incessant propaganda? Mr Xi gets it, or maybe someone else somewhere too?

That’s a good point.  Pat King is apparently extremist because he said something ridiculous about government trying to replace white people from his car window.  It was stupid, but he didn’t prescribe violence or talk about one race being superior to another to my knowledge.  

Edited October 26, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[eyeball]

5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

That’s a good point.  Pat King is apparently extremist because he said something ridiculous about government trying to replace white people from his car window.  It was stupid, but he didn’t prescribe violence or talk about one race being superior to another to my knowledge.  

It was stupid and it encourages stupid people to get butt hurt over the implication that white people are now the inferior race.  

Are we really that inferior though - are there any other races trying to address wrongs from the past to bring about a more just world in the present?  Perhaps people believe taking the effort to do so makes us inferior.

[Goddess]

4 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

The point being made was the difference between extremist and terrorist. It was a valid point and comparison.

I think extremists are people who hold extreme beliefs but don't act out violently on them.

Terrorists act on extreme beliefs.

Acting on extremist beliefs is the tipping point that makes one a terrorist.

What happens when so-called extremist beliefs turn out to be truth?  The protesters were ahead of the government in what science was saying about the jabs, mandates and restrictions.  Turns out they were right -  it doesn't really matter much who is jabbed or not.  Aside from some very high risk individuals, jabbed or not the vast majority fight off covid just fine.

It seems to me it's the Trudeau government that is a terrorist government, acting violently on extremist, unscientific beliefs towards Canadian citizens. 

Just this week, again, Trudeau has doubled down on being a terrorist government,  threatening lockdowns, restrictions, business closures if 90% of Canadians dont get jabbed every 3-6 months. For the rest of their lives, I presume, since Zero Covid is a scientifically proven extreme belief.

[Dougie93]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

It was stupid and it encourages stupid people to get butt hurt over the implication that white people are now the inferior race.  

Are we really that inferior though - are there any other races trying to address wrongs from the past to bring about a more just world in the present?  Perhaps people believe taking the effort to do so makes us inferior.

I don't think in terms of white vs non white

but there is such a thing as the British

it's not a race, it's not a place, it's the Western Enlightenment & Anglo Saxon rule of law

the advantage that made us the most prosperous & powerful civilization in history

but I do think the British people have become inferior

the British, to include America, Britain, Canada, Australia & New Zealand,

has become a nexus of lunacy, authoritarianism, totalitarianism

the British people lurch from one moral panic to the next,

tearing their own institutions down as they go

the British have become an hysterical irrational people on the aggregate now

the British are destroying their own Western civilization now, and we will burn in this fire of our own making

British countries are becoming like Latin American banana republics, and will suffer the same fates

Canada is now on the same path that made Brazil, Venezuela & Colombia

Communism, Fascism, the collapse of the middle classes, the breakdown of the rule of law

widespread civil disorder, violence, poverty & misery

and all of it will be entirely self inflicted

"civilizations die from suicide not murder" - Arnold J. Toynbee

Edited October 26, 2022 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

That’s a good point.  Pat King is apparently extremist because he said something ridiculous about government trying to replace white people from his car window.  It was stupid, but he didn’t prescribe violence or talk about one race being superior to another to my knowledge.  

except the lunatic left wing "Social Justice" parties openly declare this to be their strategy

the constant refrain of the racist left is that they will defeat conservatives by demographic replacement

so no wonder 44% of Canadians believe the replacement theory to be true

Edited October 26, 2022 by Dougie93

[eyeball]

43 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I don't think in terms of white vs non white...

...it's not a race, it's not a place...

I think in terms of species, Earth is definitely a place and we're all in the exact same place directly above the center of it.

[Zeitgeist]

9 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

except the lunatic left wing "Social Justice" parties openly declare this to be their strategy

the constant refrain of the racist left is that they will defeat conservatives by demographic replacement

so no wonder 44% of Canadians believe the replacement theory to be true

There is a very fair point to be made that mass immigration, if it comes too fast and furious, creates serious social tensions and cultural conflict, especially from parts of the world that don’t share our liberal-democratic values or where disdain towards the “colonial” founding cultures of England and France is prevalent.

These are things worth considering if you believe there’s a Canadian culture worth preserving and that this isn’t just International Tax Jurisdiction 1867.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

There is a very fair point to be made that mass immigration, if it comes too fast and furious, creates serious social tensions and cultural conflict, especially from parts of the world that don’t share our liberal-democratic values or where disdain towards the “colonial” founding cultures of England and France is prevalent.

These are things worth considering if you believe there’s a Canadian culture worth preserving and that this isn’t just International Tax Jurisdiction 1867.

I welcome the immigrants, bring them on, I would take many millions more

because the lunatic leftist racists are wrong

the immigrants are far more conservative than the native born  "white saviour" Liberals

Edited October 26, 2022 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

5 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I welcome the immigrants, bring them on, I would take many millions more

because the lunatic leftist racists are wrong

the immigrants are far more conservative than the native born lunatic "white saviour" Liberals

I agree, but the Liberals propagandize them and stoke fear of “anti-immigrant extremism” to make immigrants feel like the Liberals are their protectors.  Of course it’s condescending and paternalistic, even racist.  It’s also anti-freedom of opportunity.  The Liberals have a tax-payer funded program box for you to occupy.  Just vote Liberal, take the handout, and don’t make waves.   

Edited October 26, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

32 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 Just vote Liberal, take the handout, and don’t make waves.   

it's the native born Canadians who want handouts from the Liberals

the immigrants who come here are the entrepreneurs,

they start businesses, they make money, they don't need handouts

the immigrants would never be satisfied with meagre government handouts

the immigrants want to be rich

it's like I have a close friend who came from Afghanistan, with literally nothing

they were refugees

first he worked at the meat packing plant

then he was a pizza delivery driver

then he started making the pizzas

now he owns a chain of pizza shops, and he is far richer than I am

Edited October 26, 2022 by Dougie93