Islamophobia in Canada

[DogOnPorch]

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Rue: Obviously DOP has stronger views on how far he is going to go in challenging the Muslim religion. Sometimes I think it goes too far. 

I've been blown-up by the IRA...I'll be damned if some Muslim gets a free wack.

Edited October 3, 2017 by DogOnPorch

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, Goddess said:

It's really about controlling women's sexuality.

Yep, by shifting the responsibility for men's desires and temptations onto women it seems.  That seems to be the only purpose of a chador - I've long thought the men should take up wearing blinders instead.  Its pretty sad alright.

Its just too bad that women in the west didn't have more influence over politics back when our governments decided to go screw over Muslim societies and basically retard the development of women's rights along with the other sorts of reforms and development that were taking hold in the world.  Of course back then women in the west had just barely crawled out of our own sexual dark ages.  Maybe women were afraid of being thrown back into them for speaking out against the men that were running our show.

Edited October 3, 2017 by eyeball

[Goddess]

46 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Yep, by shifting the responsibility for men's desires and temptations onto women it seems.  That seems to be the only purpose of a chador - I've long thought the men should take up wearing blinders instead.  Its pretty sad alright.

 

Yes, I agree.  It's nice to see a man stand up and acknowledge that the veiling thing is an insult to the male gender, too.

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Its just too bad that women in the west didn't have more influence over politics back when our governments decided to go screw over Muslim societies and basically retard the development of women's rights along with the other sorts of reforms and development that were taking hold in the world. 

I don't think that would have gone over very well - Westerners coming into Muslim countries and telling them women have rights or forcing them to adopt women's rights.  I'm not certain that Women's rights in Islam are abyssmal solely because of Western influence.  But it's something to think about.

I thiink the religion itself is pretty adamant about not changing, which obviously has affected any kinds of reforms or developments in Muslim countries.  I think this has retarded development more so than Western influences, but I understand you disagree and that's okay.

 

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Of course back then women in the west had just barely crawled out of our own sexual dark ages.  Maybe women were afraid of being thrown back into them for speaking out against the men that were running our show.

This is why I think it's imperative that we make it clear we will not go along with Islam's mysogynistic views on women, including coverings, segregation and rights.  We have worked too hard to go backwards.  It distresses me that so many Muslim women are using the freedom in Western countries to return to the view that women must be covered, either partially or completely.

 

 

 

[dialamah]

27 minutes ago, Goddess said:

This is why I think it's imperative that we make it clear we will not go along with Islam's mysogynistic views on women, including coverings, segregation and rights.

Does this mean you are in favor of laws forbidding niqabs and/or hijabs?   

[Goddess]

19 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Does this mean you are in favor of laws forbidding niqabs and/or hijabs?   

You've asked me this several times and I've given my answer several times.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

Yes, I agree.  It's nice to see a man stand up and acknowledge that the veiling thing is an insult to the male gender, too.

I don't think that would have gone over very well - Westerners coming into Muslim countries and telling them women have rights or forcing them to adopt women's rights.  I'm not certain that Women's rights in Islam are abyssmal solely because of Western influence.  But it's something to think about.

I thiink the religion itself is pretty adamant about not changing, which obviously has affected any kinds of reforms or developments in Muslim countries.  I think this has retarded development more so than Western influences, but I understand you disagree and that's okay.

I'm pretty sure the religion was changing with the times like most religions around the world, except we set that process back by bombing them with dictators and warlords to do our bidding. You think that went over better than hitting them with women's rights?

Women's right are abysmal simply because of men. Full stop.

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This is why I think it's imperative that we make it clear we will not go along with Islam's mysogynistic views on women, including coverings, segregation and rights.  We have worked too hard to go backwards.  It distresses me that so many Muslim women are using the freedom in Western countries to return to the view that women must be covered, either partially or completely.

I think its a lot more imperative that we stop going along with dictators which if you'll notice are pretty much exclusively men.  The rest will follow on its own soon enough.

It pisses me off when men gawk at my daughter and suspect I'll feel much the same way if not more so when my grand-daughter grows up.  I'd rather see more women and especially western women telling men to start wearing blinders if they can't control themselves.  Maybe more Muslim women would take a cue.

[Goddess]

4 minutes ago, eyeball said:

  I'd rather see more women and especially western women telling men to start wearing blinders if they can't control themselves.

FYI - when women tell men to stop gawking at them, it has little effect.  What we need is more MEN telling other men to knock it off.

My boyfriend confronted a man who was sitting behind us at a concert a couple weeks ago.  Leaned over and said, "Quit leering at my girlfriend.  It's disrespectful to her, disrespectful to me and disrespectful to your wife who is sitting next to you."

The man didn't argue with him by denying he was leering.  But he did leave me alone after that.  (It likely helps that my man is 6' 4"  )

[eyeball]

13 minutes ago, Goddess said:

FYI - when women tell men to stop gawking at them, it has little effect.  What we need is more MEN telling other men to knock it off.

I've mentioned it to a few friends, with mixed results but mostly indifference.  It may be a tougher row to hoe than going after dictatorships but let's face it I trying to catch a glimpse of cleavage is probably a lot less damaging than ripping someone's fingernails out or bombing them.

Edited October 3, 2017 by eyeball

[drummindiver]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

Yep, by shifting the responsibility for men's desires and temptations onto women it seems.  That seems to be the only purpose of a chador - I've long thought the men should take up wearing blinders instead.  Its pretty sad alright.

Its just too bad that women in the west didn't have more influence over politics back when our governments decided to go screw over Muslim societies and basically retard the development of women's rights along with the other sorts of reforms and development that were taking hold in the world.  Of course back then women in the west had just barely crawled out of our own sexual dark ages.  Maybe women were afraid of being thrown back into them for speaking out against the men that were running our show.

So, you're blaming western women for the deeds of Muslim men against women.

Riiiiiiiiggt.

[eyeball]

5 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

So, you're blaming western women for the deeds of Muslim men against women.

Riiiiiiiiggt.

Nope. That's not what I said.  It may be what you heard but you do have a long storied record of hearing things people don't say so...

[drummindiver]

56 minutes ago, eyeball said:

 

It pisses me off when men gawk at my daughter and suspect I'll feel much the same way if not more so when my grand-daughter grows up.  I'd rather see more women and especially western women telling men to start wearing blinders if they can't control themselves.  Maybe more Muslim women would take a cue.

Men staring at women. What next, talking to them? 

[drummindiver]

49 minutes ago, Goddess said:

FYI - when women tell men to stop gawking at them, it has little effect.  What we need is more MEN telling other men to knock it off.

My boyfriend confronted a man who was sitting behind us at a concert a couple weeks ago.  Leaned over and said, "Quit leering at my girlfriend.  It's disrespectful to her, disrespectful to me and disrespectful to your wife who is sitting next to you."

The man didn't argue with him by denying he was leering.  But he did leave me alone after that.  (It likely helps that my man is 6' 4"  )

I have lots of men stare at my partner, and I'm ok with that. Proud even, as im proud of who she is. 

We can't even look at the opposite sex now for Christ sake?

[Goddess]

4 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

I have lots of men stare at my partner, and I'm ok with that. Proud even, as im proud of who she is. 

We can't even look at the opposite sex now for Christ sake?

Men look.  As women, we get that.

What is not appreciated is prolonged leering after you see we're not interested.  Then it just gets scary and creepy and uncomfortable.  That's what I'm talking about.  

[drummindiver]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

 

Its just too bad that women in the west didn't have more influence over politics back when our governments decided to go screw over Muslim societies and basically retard the development of women's rights along with the other sorts of reforms and development that were taking hold in the world. 

My bad.

When did this huge government collusion happen? Pre 1920?

 

And you have a storied history of blaming everything on the west

[Omni]

12 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Men look.  As women, we get that.

What is not appreciated is prolonged leering after you see we're not interested.  Then it just gets scary and creepy and uncomfortable.  That's what I'm talking about.  

And then there are men like Trump who step even well over that line. It seems there certain people, even posters here who get their "jollies" thinking about that. 

[betsy]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

Does this mean you are in favor of laws forbidding niqabs and/or hijabs?   

Niqabs and burqua.

They're banning them in other countries like Austria.

Edited October 3, 2017 by betsy

[OftenWrong]

23 minutes ago, Omni said:

And then there are men like Trump who step even well over that line. It seems there certain people, even posters here who get their "jollies" thinking about that. 

Always finding a way to bring in Trump, eh fella? Hint, the thread title.

[Omni]

Just now, OftenWrong said:

Always finding a way to bring in Trump, eh fella? Hint, the thread title.

Hint, you don't think Trump is an islamaphobe? 

[dialamah]

2 hours ago, Rue said:

Sorry I needed to take time to respond. Unlike some you take thought in what you say to me so I take time to read and think it through. In regards to your first sentence I tend to agree with you. Its a criticism that can hold as to any organized group imposed thought or value system.  In regards to your second question I appreciate it and it yes is tough to answer and I understand why you ask it. Point taken. On the one hand Judaism provides a code of argument the Talmud. We as Jews are not supposed to take anything literally in the Bible. Everything is subject to constant debat eand change as to meaning. Judaism is meant to change constantly in its values and beleifs-its suppose to constantly be questioned and adapt to new contexts and scenarios and never stay fixed or entrenched.  That said, in practical reality Rabbiahs like Priests, Mullahs and other Clergy or Theological scholars usually dominate the debate on the meaning of the Talmud, Bible or Rabbinical essays. Good point in that all religions probably have this issue.  You are right I am not religious conventionally and that is precisely because I don't like anyone telling me what I MUST believe

I like the idea of a religion that allows it's adherents to question and change the religion, but that's pretty rare I think.  I don't recall anything in my years exploring Christianity that allowed for questioning of Christianity to change it as needed.  Once one believed, one was supposed to accept the Bible as the final word of God and scripture from both old and new Testament was used to support whatever tenet a particular sect felt was important to believe.   Change has happened, of course,  at least in Western countries, but I think that was more a function of living in an increasingly secular society, starting with the division of Church and State, and less to do with the will of the majority of Christians.   I see signs of the same process in Islam and among Muslims, but it is such a slow process for them, as it has been for Christianity - we've been working at this for 150 years at least, and we still have 'Christian' hangover in terms of how we view women and family.   I recognize too that in the Middle East, progress seems to have slowed or even gone backwards in some ways since the 60s or so, and I think much of that has to do with Western influence in the Middle East.  This is not to say that the West is "responsible" for every Islamic terrorist attack, but one can't claim that installing dictators or bombing vast swaths of a region doesn't result in some kind of effect on the attitudes and behavior of the people in that region.   I think it's an extremely complex topic, and simplistic answers like "The West did it" or "Islam is the problem" simply don't make sense to me.

 

2 hours ago, Rue said:

ow in regards to your opinion about mainstream Islam not being violent, I think you show integrity coming on this forum and taking a lot of personal attacks for saying that. I have to respect you for that. I also  listen carefully to your views. Can I say this. I will concede a great deal of my exposure to Islam has come from the media or terrorism or travelling  which does focus on violent Islamic expressions of terrorism of course.

Is that integrity, or stupidity?     But thanks.   Most of my exposure has come through my sister.  She was very cute as a young women, and dated a lot.  Despite the misogynistic Muslim stereotype, the Muslim men she dated in Canada - even those newly arrived from places like Iran and Tunisia - treated her very well.   They did not hit her or dictate her clothing.  They treated her with respect, with gentleness, with love.   She's found the same with the Egyptian Muslim man she married, and with all his brothers.   This is not to say that life in Egypt is perfect; she clearly recognizes the ways in which the culture limits her due to her being female and the way in which Islam favors males.  She can also see the way in which Islam celebrates and honors women, even when Muslim men and the government fall short of what the Koran teaches.   It's not a simple black/white "Muslim men are misogynistic because they force women to wear the headscarf" and Western men aren't because they don't.  Consider that Muslim husbands are also required by Islam to ensure his wife's sexual satisfaction through patience and foreplay, including oral sex and manual stimulation, while in the West the lack of interest or consideration for female sexual pleasure has been called misogynistic.  Of course, I don't mean to imply that a woman shouldn't have both great sex and be able to be uncovered, but that the issue of Islamic misogyny is just more complicated than many people seem to want to allow.

In regards to the violence currently so prevalent within Islam, I think it's also more complex than "Islam teaches violence, here are some koranic verses and some hadiths to prove it".   Something like 97% of Muslims condemn terrorism, so it's not a mainstream belief regardless of how many verses and hadiths one wants to quote.  Yet, we still have armies and terrorists torturing and killing in the name of Islam.   Blaming "Islam" is very easy, isn't it?    But does anyone really think ISIS would go away if we waved a magic wand and Islam disappeared overnight?    Desire for territory and power would still drive them, but they might call it "True Arabic State" instead of "Islamic State".  Pretending it's all about Islam doesn't solve any problems; it just helps us focus on the wrong solutions.   Religion is one of the greatest motivators for war, it's either just before or just after "to save the women and children", which is also closely related to 'saving our way of life".   Those are the reasons given for war to those who fight and those who pay for the fighting.   But for the ones who benefit from war, the true motivator is territory/resources and/or power and in our capitalistic age, money.   

4 hours ago, Rue said:

That said when I lived in Israel I got along with all the Muslims I knew. But I really didn't see them as "Muslim". I saw them as "Arabs" and in that group of "Arabs" I also saw Christians and Jews not just Muslims and also I saw Beduins whose beliefs are not the same as others and to tell you the truth most Palestinians I knew were like Israelis or Arab Israelis or Palestinians-none of us were religious.

I think 'we are all the same' is more true than many people realize.   I believe most people want to have safety and security for themselves and their families, they want enough to eat and to be able to live and love in peace - and of course, enjoy the newest mod cons, whether it's the invention of fire or the latest iPhone.  Unfortunately, there are those who decide that "those people over there" don't have the right to live in peace and so they plan their attack - using religion, family, country to get everyone else to go along.   It's bizarre to me that a (relative) handful of terrorists can put 1.5 billion non-terrorists on people's radar as a 'threat'.   All perspective is lost, but that's the beauty of propaganda isn't it?

 

4 hours ago, Rue said:

Then again I was 16, 17, 18 at that time. Today I am 61 and the Middle East has changed and the extremist Islamic religious terror cells are a fact now everywhere. In the time I was there the PLO was not religious. Many of the Palestinian terror groups were in fact atheist and communist. Hamas when I was there was not a terrorist organization and Hezbollah was a Shiite extremist religious group yes but only in Lebanon in the Shiite area.

 

Things were better when I was 16, 17, 18 too.    And yeah, extremism has grown - and not to 'blame the West' for everything, I think we do have to take some responsibility for how things have played out in the Middle East.   Now, I basically support Jews having a homeland, so no problem with Isreal.   But I can also understand someone from Egypt saying "Sure, the Americans and British simply decided that was where Isreal should go, without any consideration for the people already there".   It's done now, and I don't see any way of changing that, but certainly for the people who used to live there, who saw their homeland simply removed from them - even if the new people had a valid and pre-existing claim - that would be a hard pill to swallow.    Again, another complex situation not helped by simple statements that Israel is wrong and usurpers, or that Palestinians should be grateful for what they still have and stop fighting about it.

4 hours ago, Rue said:

You know from a Zionist perspective only, our belief in being free by creating a state to protect ourselves from extinction has not brought freedom-it has brought a group psychosis of denial from mainstream Arab countries most using Islam and the concept and belief of khafir and dhmmitude to  reject our right to be a free people and equal to Muslims so I don't see much freedom in being free. I see us Jews in Israel surrounded by hostile forces in the name of Islam wanting to wipe us out.

This makes me so sad.   Once again, I don't see why Israel shouldn't have their homeland, and to enjoy peace and security.   But I don't know what the answer is, because I also think the Palestinians are suffering as they are squeezed by Israel's expansion.   

 

4 hours ago, Rue said:

Hell I dug ditches in the West Bank for sewage along side Israeli and Palestinian volunteers. Shit looks the same. So do people when we saw them after they were blown up and left on the streets. When you see that as a young man-when you see blown up bodies, you don't see Arabs or Israelis, Jews or Muslims, you just see bran matter, intestines, organ pieces, feet, arms.teeth.  There are always flies and a smell and maggots. All you think of  is cleaning up the ground because the smell and flies in the sun and heat are horrible.

 

This would be indescribably terrible, I cannot even pretend to imagine how this affected you.    

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No one walks away from that going that was a Muslim body. That was a Jewish body. At least not in the moment. Everyone Palestinian or Israeli walks away with the same reaction that you just won't turn your back to anyone and sitting in a café or bus or even going to a movie theatre is always a matter of being vigilante. You can't see a physical difference in people so you suspect them all. That's the reality.

It becomes a blur of who you see. It could be anyone who blows you up or shoots you or knifes you.h because both were equally as violent.

So I am not sure what to say. I feel the same way about extremist Jews as I do extremist Muslims or extremist Christians. My apprehension can get triggered by tappearance, i.e., beards, clothes, smell, sound.

My apprehension is there. I genuinely don't like any human until one on one I get to know them and can trust them

 I have a cousin who went through an experience in which he felt threatened by those around him over a long period of time, and he still feels that sense of distrust about other people.   He has to consciously work not to assume others are out to get him in some way.  My son, who was attacked and almost killed, had his sense of safety shattered for a long time, and I'm not sure he'll ever get it back completely.   But both of them work at it daily, they both had to learn to be open and emotionally communicative, I think, in order to deal as well as they have with it.  I believe I see the same in you, in the openness, honesty and sometimes even passion of your posts here.    This kind of trauma is not an easy thing to overcome or to live with.  

 

4 hours ago, Rue said:

I think people like Trudeau come from sheltered environments and do not get terrorism and are exposing this country to extremists coming in and yes Muslim ones.

Yes, I agree that Trudeau is like most Canadians, who come from sheltered environments and many do not see the danger that you do.   At the same time, those of us who do not see the same danger are not necessarily wrong, either.   I think there is value to both perspectives, and that it can help us meet in the middle.   But for me personally, the threat has to be more credible than "Sharia law is coming because Islamophobia was mentioned in a motion for a study" or 'Look what's going on in Europe" for me to take it seriously.   The most concerning item I've seen in all the  (hysterical) claims that have been made concerns Imams have been recorded preaching against Jews.  That should absolutely be unacceptable and imo, the Imams should have been charged with hate crimes and a full investigation should have been done.   But that it wasn't done does not convince me the government has 'an agenda'.  It just is one more example of a justice system that is surprisingly hit and miss,  too often missing clear guilt as well as clear innocence.

 

5 hours ago, Rue said:

That said it does not mean I hate Muslims and want them all arrested. Terrorist Muslims want all of us to hate mainstream Muslims so we alienate mainstream Muslims from mainstream non Muslims to make it easier to recruit them.

 

Yes, those who continually fan hatred and fear of Islam are playing into ISIS agenda, but they just don't see it that way - they are sounding the alarm, protecting their country, protecting their women, children, culture.   Against such pure motivation, how can one persuade them they are really serving the terrorists?   

 

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I just wish we could be blunt and challenge Muslim extremism but balance it with a sense of understanding  we have to avoid hating all Muslims  which is what Muslim terrorists want.

I think the message that we will stand together with Muslims is really the best way to frustrate the goals of Islamic extremism, at least as it applies to the West.   I think community directed programs to present a view that contradicts the claims of extremists is important, and for that we need Muslim support.   But we aren't going to get it by calling them backwards, violent and barbaric people, unable to fit into our culture; that kind of rhetoric is just going to get them to bunker up and pretend they don't have any problems, especially any incipient terrorists.

 

5 hours ago, Rue said:

You are challenging some stereotypes which needs to be done.

Hopefully it's working better than it appears to be.    

Thanks, Rue.  Good being able to dig a little deeper into the issues, and learning your perspective and experiences.   

[dialamah]

2 hours ago, Goddess said:

You've asked me this several times and I've given my answer several times.

Could be, and I think the answer is no.   But the way you phrased that made me wonder if I mis-remembered and rather than *assume* and *react* I decided I would just ask.   Sorry to have wasted our time.

[dialamah]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

I'd rather see more women and especially western women telling men to start wearing blinders if they can't control themselves.  Maybe more Muslim women would take a cue.

Yeah.   And I think Western women leading by example is the best way.   I think that the current sentiment that burkas or headscarfs should be banned or the accusation that they are simply an example of Islamic misogyny are making women of faith more inclined to wear them, not less.   

[Argus]

6 hours ago, dialamah said:

What a remarkably stupid thing for you to say.   

It's certainly apropos of the comparison you made.

[Goddess]

15 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Could be, and I think the answer is no.   But the way you phrased that made me wonder if I mis-remembered and rather than *assume* and *react* I decided I would just ask.   Sorry to have wasted our time.

The answer is no.

I'm not the monster you think you am. 

[dialamah]

2 minutes ago, Goddess said:

The answer is no.

I'm not the monster you think you am. 

 I don't think people who support burka bans are monsters, merely misguided who think simple solutions will work for complex issues.

[Goddess]

47 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 I don't think people who support burka bans are monsters, merely misguided who think simple solutions will work for complex issues.

Well, I guess I am the monster you think I am, then.  I'm a "maybe" on a burka ban, mainly for security reasons in this day and age.  There was a burka'ed lady who used it to hide a giant knife in a Canadian Tire store here recently so she could stab people.  And being a frequent traveller, I've noticed burka'ed ladies do not get searched before getting on the airplane, barely questioned or even looked at, which is disturbing to me.

The hijab - I don't care for the messages inherent in it (political support of Islam, denigration of women, "I'm modest while other women are whores", I have to hide my filthy female body because men can't control themselves, etc)  but I suppose if those are their beliefs and they're proud of them, it's their choice.