Islamophobia in Canada

[hot enough]

33 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

What I said was not even about terrorism.

It's all inextricably tied together. It has only come about, not because the right wing cares about these things, the right wing only uses it as a meme. 

Your point about Amish etc. is not a bad one, since they also dress very modestly but that is not my concern either. If the cultural examples you give believe they have a god-given right to beat their women then they are included in my criticism.

You all make a mountain out of a molehill. You all draw spurious conclusions and stroke each others irrational fears. 

[OftenWrong]

Just now, hot enough said:

It's all inextricably tied together. It has only come about, not because the right wing cares about these things, the right wing only uses it as a meme.

You all make a mountain out of a molehill. You all draw spurious conclusions and stroke each others irrational fears. 

I have no fears. I don't see the two issues as identical, but perhaps tied to the root cause of a barbarous culture that is becoming increasing more oppressive and fundamental in its teachings.

[hot enough]

17 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

I have no fears.

I don't see the two issues as identical, but perhaps tied to the root cause of a barbarous culture that is becoming increasing more oppressive and fundamental in its teachings.

Bullshit! You support a great deal of fear mongering here both actively and with your silence.

Tell me what barbarous culture has illegally invaded myriad sovereign nations and slaughtered tens of millions of people. Tell me what barbarous culture has planned genocides and carried them out with State Department death lists. 

Edited October 6, 2017 by hot enough

[OftenWrong]

2 minutes ago, hot enough said:

Bullshit! You actively support a great deal of fear mongering here both actively and with your silence.

Tell me what barbarous culture has illegally invaded myriad sovereign nations and slaughtered tens of millions of people. Tell me what barbarous culture has planned genocides and carried them out with State Department death lists. 

Off topic. It's not about you or me. 

[OftenWrong]

30 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Sure, let's ban this symbol of oppression; for the women who wear it by choice, they can decide not to wear it, no problem.  Or if they decide.to stay home, well I might think that's dumb ... but their choice.

But what are you going to do about the women whose family says ... No burka, no leaving the house?   

I imagine there are some who really are that mean and extreme. But I believe that problem could be dealt with some how. Counselling would be a good idea for Muslim families who have that kind of difficulty adopting to life in Canada. Not allowing someone to leave the house is criminal, so there is a basis for doing something about it.

Problem with counselling is it really should best be done by other Muslims who already live here. Westernized Muslims. The Imam would be the right person to talk to everyone in the family.

Transitions are quite difficult for people to make and first generation immigrants who are raised to accept Burka, circumcision as normal might be quite unhappy. If that's the case let them leave Canada. Or stay and put up with it. It's the second generation, their children, who will be given a better life here.

Edited October 6, 2017 by OftenWrong

[hot enough]

19 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Off topic. It's not about you or me. 

Yes, it most certainly is. It is about Islamaphobia in Canada, something which has arisen because of 911 and the memes that have developed are the very ones you are raising. This pretense by some who fake how they are so worried about women being "beaten" and how they are being forced to wear certain clothes but these same people are totally comfortable with these women being carpet bombed, phosphorus bombed, raped, have planned genocides committed against them, their children slaughtered, ... . 

You raised the barbarous cultures and now you don't want to discuss the barbarous cultures?

Edited October 6, 2017 by hot enough

[OftenWrong]

1 minute ago, hot enough said:

Yes, it most certainly is. It is about Islamaphobia in Canada, something which has arisen because of 911 and the memes that have developed are the very ones you are raising. This pretense by some who fake how they are so worried about women being "beaten" and how they are being forced to wear certain clothes but these same people are totally comfortable with these women being carpet bombed, phosphorus bombed, raped, have planned genocides committed against them, their children slaughtered, ... . 

Off topic again. I never said I accepted any such thing and what I write here is what I actually believe, not fake. I suggest you cease the attack or you will be reported.

[dialamah]

4 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Not allowing someone to leave the house is criminal, so there is a basis for doing something about it.

How would anyone know?   

[dialamah]

5 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

circumcision as normal might be quite unhappy. If that's the case let them leave Canada

Circumcision is both common and legal in Canada.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, dialamah said:

Circumcision is both common and legal in Canada.

It should only be legal when performed on consenting adults. 

[dialamah]

6 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Problem with counselling is it really should best be done by other Muslims who already live here. Westernized Muslims. The Imam would be the right person to talk to everyone in the family.

If a woman who is required by her family to wear a burka in public but Canada implements a law banning the burka in public, how is she to get to counselling or "westernized" Muslims?

I agree that Imams are key to changing attitudes.

[bush_cheney2004]

33 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Put the family in jail for kidnapping...?

 

Agreed...what kind of argument is illegal confinement and kidnapping to justify oppression of women ?

 

 

[dialamah]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

It should only be legal when performed on consenting adults. 

Totally agree, but that is not the law in Canada.  And it isn't just Muslims who practice it, so an attempt to ban it would likely get significant pushback.  However education and and public awareness have reduced the number of babies who have to endure it.  

[dialamah]

37 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Put the family in jail for kidnapping...?

Have you missed the stories of women and children effectively imprisoned in homes, sometimes for decades, authorities and neighbors oblivious?   Sometimes its a stranger kidnapping girls or women, sometimes its the husband or boyfriend, sometimes a parent or both parents.  How many more do you suppose we never hear about?

[dialamah]

32 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Agreed...what kind of argument is illegal confinement and kidnapping to justify oppression of women ?

Read carefully: 

Muslim.women who wear a burka cannot go in public without the burka.  This is oppressive, bad enough if they choose it, worse if husband or family choose it for her.

The "free" country she lives in bans the burka in public.

She cannot go out in public with the burka on because it is illegal.

She cannot go out in public without the burka because either her conscience forbids it, or worse - her husband or family will not allow it and she feels she must respect or obey her husband or family.

I said nothing about kidnapping or illegal confinement.  But I suppose any consideration or discussion of dysfunctional family behavior is irrelevant in the goal to save the women from oppression by adding to it.

Edited October 6, 2017 by dialamah

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Have you missed the stories of women and children effectively imprisoned in homes, sometimes for decades, authorities and neighbors oblivious?   Sometimes its a stranger kidnapping girls or women, sometimes its the husband or boyfriend, sometimes a parent or both parents.  How many more do you suppose we never hear about?

Yeah, I know. I'd just like to see all their families jailed, is all. 

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, dialamah said:

....I said nothing about kidnapping or illegal confinement.  But I suppose any consideration or discussion of dysfunctional family behavior is irrelevant in the goal to show those Muslims by pretending to save the women from oppression by adding to it.

 

Agreed...it is irrelevant.  The threat of involuntary confinement is no justification or rationalization for another layer of oppression in public.

Dysfunctional behaviour is not improved by yet more dysfunctional behaviour.

 

[dialamah]

Just now, bcsapper said:

Yeah, I know. I'd just like to see all their families jailed, is all. 

Well so would I.  I would also like to avoid implementing laws that put women and girls at higher risk of being confined to their homes, which I believe would be the result of a burka ban for some Muslim women and girls.

[OftenWrong]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Agreed...it is irrelevant.  The threat of involuntary confinement is no justification or rationalization for another layer of oppression in public.

Dysfunctional behaviour is not improved by yet more dysfunctional behaviour.

 

Kind of like saying "I want to create a law to protect the innocent, but probably shouldn't because criminals might break that law."

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Well so would I.  I would also like to avoid implementing laws that put women and girls at higher risk of being confined to their homes, which I believe would be the result of a burka ban for some Muslim women and girls.

Yeah, I'm against the Burka ban too.  Different reason.  I just believe people. 

[OftenWrong]

Just now, dialamah said:

Well so would I.  I would also like to avoid implementing laws that put women and girls at higher risk of being confined to their homes, which I believe would be the result of a burka ban for some Muslim women and girls.

So you agree something should be done at least. Implementation would have to ensure that she is fully protected. People who find that unacceptable should not immigrate to Canada. I imagine it is never easy for first generation immigrants to deal with a big cultural change when moving to a foreign country. A law banning the Burka and unwanted female circumcision would be accepted much more easily by the second generation, girls who are born here.

[dialamah]

1 minute ago, OftenWrong said:

Kind of like saying "I want to create a law to protect the innocent, but probably shouldn't because criminals might break that law."

More like "I would like to create a law to protect the innocent, by leaving them entirely at the mercy of the criminals".

I notice that while you say you are against the burka because its a symbol of oppression, you seem entirely unconcerned  about the actual oppression of a woman who has to defy either her conscience, her family or the law to appear in public because other people are deciding what is acceptable for her to wear.

[OftenWrong]

4 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Yeah, I'm against the Burka ban too.  Different reason.  I just believe people. 

I was against it based on the principle that an adult has the right to wear it if they wish, and to keep the nanny state out of people's closets. (I know it sounds weird... nanny state, get back in the closet!)

However I came to realize that if they're brought up in that culture from birth they won't willingly let go of it, and they would pass this tradition on to their children. I do not want this to be a Canadian tradition.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, OftenWrong said:

I was against it based on the principle that an adult has the right to wear it if they wish, and to keep the nanny state out of people's closets. (I know it sounds weird... nanny state, get back in the closet!)

However I came to realize that if they're brought up in that culture from birth they won't willingly let go of it, and they would pass this tradition on to their children. I do not want this to be a Canadian tradition.

Yes, it's not an easy position to take, I agree. 

[OftenWrong]

3 minutes ago, dialamah said:

More like "I would like to create a law to protect the innocent, by leaving them entirely at the mercy of the criminals".

I notice that while you say you are against the burka because its a symbol of oppression, you seem entirely unconcerned  about the actual oppression of a woman who has to defy either her conscience, her family or the law to appear in public because other people are deciding what is acceptable for her to wear.

Don't tell me what I "seem" please. Quote me if necessary, but do not second guess me. Please.

I am concerned about her, and her children as well. I don't have answers to all the problems you brought up, which only further illustrate the depth of their misogynistic culture. Doing nothing doesn't sit well with me either. In any case if this problem were easily solved it would already have been done. We are not going to come up with a perfect solution in a forum discussion, but discussing it is at least a first step.