I don't give a damn about truth and reconciliation

[Nationalist]

2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

do not fly the Liberal Party of Canada flag, do not sing the Liberal Party of Canada song

only fly the Red Ensign

only play God Save The King, The Maple Leaf Forever & The Regimental March

Dileas Gu Brath

 

Whatever turns your crank I suppose.

[Nationalist]

2 hours ago, I am Groot said:

It was meant to be.

Over the past eight years I've gone from having enormous sympathy for natives to being irritated and resentful every time I have to listen to another goddam whiny statement about how we're on the 'unceded land of the Algonquin' or hear myself described as a 'settler' or hear about billions and billion more going to natives to make up for this or that 'wrong' or see them blocking roads or rail lines or demanding Canada day be canceled or hearing one guilt-mongering story after another about how bad life is at this or that reserve.

It's too much and I'm sick of it and sick of them. They have agency. Any one of them can stop feeling sorry for themselves, move into town and get a damn job like the rest of us.

And this...Libbies...is the end result of your incessant virtue signaling.

Good work...twits.

[Dougie93]

39 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Whatever turns your crank I suppose.

the Nationalist People's Republic is a fake county

as by the terms of the Constitution Act

The House of Windsor is the only Canadian nation

God, King, Country

Regiment, Colours, Commander-in-Chief

[Nationalist]

19 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

the Nationalist People's Republic is a fake county

as by the terms of the Constitution Act

The House of Windsor is the only Canadian nation

God, King, Country

Regiment, Colours, Commander-in-Chief

Ya...ok...

[I am Groot]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

You should learn to get used to it because you'll be hearing it for the rest of your life.

So, you're saying natives will be whining and playing up the victimhood forever?

[eyeball]

2 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

So, you're saying natives will be whining and playing up the victimhood forever?

No, they'll be winning their battles in court while your playing up your white man's tax burden victimhood schtick.

It still hasn't dawned on you that treaties include royalty sharing which should reduce the tax cross you keep dragging behind you has it?

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

No, they'll be winning their battles in court while your playing up your white man's tax burden victimhood schtick.

 

Nah - the pendulum ALWAYS swings. Around about the 70's people started to realize the first nations really got a bit of a bad deal and were treated poorly in confederation. So sympathy slowly swung towards tilting the scale the other way

Nowadays, people are already starting to get fed up.  The first nations are actually starting to lose more cases than they win. people are seeing that 'truth and reconcilliation' really means 'native lies about the past and demands for money that doesnt' change their lives."

Over time that sentiment will creep up.

That's how it works.

[Zeitgeist]

20 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

So, you're saying natives will be whining and playing up the victimhood forever?

I don’t blame most natives for the victim narrative.  I blame the many self-satisfied and self-righteous politicians and media who see themselves as saviours and the natives as incapable babies who must be saved.  It’s the most denigrating shameful way to describe a people or peoples.  Natives are people capable of as much as anyone else.  The top-down Indian Act regime of controlled and subsidized culture is what’s holding natives back.  Give people self-determination but also the responsibility to pay their own way and upkeep (taxes) like everyone else, and they will be what they want to be. Throwing unearned money at people is a form of bribery and imprisonment.

The problem is that there are perks to this arrangement that many natives don’t want to give up.  Having these benefits comes at a cost: keep your status card, stick with your own, and stay on the reserve.  Of course no one is going to take away the reserves and status.  Natives have their budget and can decide what to do.  I’d simply say they should be able to do what they want with their property, but they must take care of it themselves.  The reliance on outside money is ultimately disempowering.  I wish I saw an easy way out.  Natives must be the ones to decide.  Seeking more unearned money and demanding that today’s generation compensate for old land arrangements seems a fool’s errand, but the courts can look at the evidence and decide.  It’s unhealthy to wait for other people to save you, especially if you don’t trust these people.  It’s better to use the resources you have to achieve what you can. There are some water and infrastructure needs on reserves that must be addressed, but we should be teaching people to fish instead of handing over fish.  Self-determination requires self-sufficiency.  

Edited September 30, 2023 by Zeitgeist

[BeaverFever]

On 9/29/2023 at 12:26 PM, Michael Hardner said:

People who don't care about past wrongs sure seem to love past rights...

They also love to obsess over past wrongs done against “their kind”

[BeaverFever]

Simply put, the OP and like-minded people on this forum are blithely ignorant of FN people and their issues   Nobody is supposed to feel “guilty” and FN people are not simply asking for more money  Arguments that other peoples atrocities were worse or that “most” of the people committing these acts of genocide had good intentions based on the values of the day are. subjective and ultimately irrelevant.  

Anyone who thinks FN people live this great life with “free” perks had never been to a Reserve. Many of these communities are third-world squalor and the “free” services provided by the federal government are third world quality and are next to useless. The usual suspects on this site also have no idea what FN people are demanding 

Everyone on all sides of the issue agrees that the Indian Act, which was originally intended to be an institution of genocide is the at the root of the problem. But nobody can agree on what should replace it. 

Edited October 1, 2023 by BeaverFever

[Michael Hardner]

52 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

They also love to obsess over past wrongs done against “their kind”

If you ever been stuck in the corner seat... At a table in a pub... With some Eastern European is going to tell you about what happened to his kind in 1780...

And by the way.. thanks for nothing Azerbaijan

[WestCanMan]

15 hours ago, August1991 said:

I agree with many posts in this thread - but here, I disagree.

====

Slavery is different. Curious, I have walked around places where slaves were bought/sold.

This is what struck me about slave markets: children were separated from their mother, sisters from their brother

-a man who loved a woman? They were separated.

 

My point is that the topic of residential schools is an exercise in propagating blatantly racist disinformation, just like the topic of slavery.

Res schools were not created to give priests the opportunity to bugger children. 

Res schools were created to get little kids from the stone age into modern times, with modern opportunities. 

Some priests, not all, who were given too much power over kids, did what too many humans do when they have too much power: they abused it, and it was vile. 

The suffering was very real, the shame is very real, but let's not pretend that people in Toronto and Mtl just wanted res schools created so that kids in the far north could be abused. It's patently ridiculous. 

As long as that narrative is an official part of the Truth and Reconciliation storyline, I'm not buying into it. 

[herbie]

7 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Those who own their own future and take responsibility for it are deplorable, are they?

No, those that don't give a shit about other people are a$$holes, sociopaths by legal definition. Just as people who think they can "own" their own future are delusional.

It's too chilly to wear a T-shirt today and I live where it's 50% native. Gotta go downtown so I decided out of respect to pick the orange shirt out of the closet. Is that 'too woke' for you to even comprehend?

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, herbie said:

No, those that don't give a shit about other people are a$$holes, sociopaths by legal definition. Just as people who think they can "own" their own future are delusional.

It's too chilly to wear a T-shirt today and I live where it's 50% native. Gotta go downtown so I decided out of respect to pick the orange shirt out of the closet. Is that 'too woke' for you to even comprehend?

The Chuds hate the idea of being kind to people.

Here's what to do:

-Find out if they're the kind of Chud who can discuss politics honestly and with an open mind, to determine the points of difference between you.  It's a rarity, but if you have one then engage.
-If you don't have one, state your principles and possibly explain to them the path to changing the Charter of Rights so that whoever they're attacking loses their rights.  You have now done your duty.  Stop engaging, and possibly put them on your ignore list.

[I am Groot]

5 hours ago, eyeball said:

No, they'll be winning their battles in court while your playing up your white man's tax burden victimhood schtick.

It still hasn't dawned on you that treaties include royalty sharing which should reduce the tax cross you keep dragging behind you has it?

It hasn't dawned on you that I don't believe they should get a damned thing more or less than what any other Canadian gets, has it?

[I am Groot]

5 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

  Seeking more unearned money and demanding that today’s generation compensate for old land arrangements seems a fool’s errand, but the courts can look at the evidence and decide.  

And if I trusted the courts to decide anything based purely on evidence as opposed to their own progressive ideological beliefs I'd be more sanguine about that. But given the courts officially give credence to what a native says his grandfather told him HIS grandfather told him and HIS grandfather told him, and treat that as actual evidence, I'm not too confident.

[I am Groot]

3 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Anyone who thinks FN people live this great life with “free” perks had never been to a Reserve. Many of these communities are third-world squalor and the “free” services provided by the federal government are third world quality and are next to useless.

Federal Indigenous spending, however, continues to grow faster than overall spending. It is projected to rise from about $25 billion in fiscal 2021-22 to about $35.5 billion in 2026-27, an increase of 42 percent in nominal dollars.

Indigenous spending continues to rise as a proportion of the federal budget, from 6.1 percent in 2019-20 to 7.7 percent in 2026-27—an increase of 26 percent in seven years.

Indigenous spending is increasingly driven by the negotiated settlement of class actions, such as those for Indian residential schools, Indian day schools, Indian hospitals, and boil-water advisories on Indian reserves.

The biggest of these settlements is the $40 billion child welfare settlement announced in December 2021.

The impact of this settlement upon Indigenous spending is difficult to observe because, under the principles of accrual accounting, much of it is backdated to earlier years.

The Trudeau government has missed all its previous budgetary targets for Indigenous spending, so the increases announced in Budget 2022 will probably prove to be underestimates, especially if class actions continue to put unpredictable pressures on Indigenous funding commitments.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/indigenous-spending-in-budget-2022#:~:text=Federal Indigenous spending%2C however%2C continues,42 percent in nominal dollars.

If it's useless, can we please have the money back?

3 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

The usual suspects on this site also have no idea what FN people are demanding 

Money. More money. Self-government. Control over vast lands. More money.

3 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Everyone on all sides of the issue agrees that the Indian Act, which was originally intended to be an institution of genocide is the at the root of the problem. But nobody can agree on what should replace it. 

I'm reminded of a quote from Thomas Sowell who said that after studying what he called 'lagging groups' all around the world in a variety of countries he determined that the leadership of those groups never want to lead them toward goals that will bring them equality and integration with the mainstream because that would rob them of their power. So instead they advocate policies that will keep them down. We still have the Indian Act because native chiefs insist on keeping it.

2 hours ago, herbie said:

No, those that don't give a shit about other people are a$$holes, sociopaths by legal definition. Just as people who think they can "own" their own future are delusional.

It's too chilly to wear a T-shirt today and I live where it's 50% native. Gotta go downtown so I decided out of respect to pick the orange shirt out of the closet. Is that 'too woke' for you to even comprehend?

Everything you say is too woke and too dumb for me to comprehend.

[I am Groot]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

The Chuds hate the idea of being kind to people.
 

This is the same play on words we constantly hear from the far left. Everything that denies them what they want is unkind. Every policy they advocate is good so everyone who opposes them is bad. They want to help people, and all their ideas do that so those who oppose their ideas don't want to help people.

I mean, this sort of attitude is both intellectually barren and childish. It's the kind of sneering attitude you hear from know it all adolescents who actually don't know much about anything.

I've come to accept there is something intrinsically missing in the lives of these people. They have nothing in their lives that makes them feel good about themselves so they take on this 'noble' undertaking of being white knights to whatever cause will give them a better sense of self-esteem and superiority over others.

[Nexii]

5 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I don’t blame most natives for the victim narrative.  I blame the many self-satisfied and self-righteous politicians and media who see themselves as saviours and the natives as incapable babies who must be saved.  It’s the most denigrating shameful way to describe a people or peoples.  Natives are people capable of as much as anyone else.  The top-down Indian Act regime of controlled and subsidized culture is what’s holding natives back.  Give people self-determination but also the responsibility to pay their own way and upkeep (taxes) like everyone else, and they will be what they want to be. Throwing unearned money at people is a form of bribery and imprisonment.

The problem is that there are perks to this arrangement that many natives don’t want to give up.  Having these benefits comes at a cost: keep your status card, stick with your own, and stay on the reserve.  Of course no one is going to take away the reserves and status.  Natives have their budget and can decide what to do.  I’d simply say they should be able to do what they want with their property, but they must take care of it themselves.  The reliance on outside money is ultimately disempowering.  I wish I saw an easy way out.  Natives must be the ones to decide.  Seeking more unearned money and demanding that today’s generation compensate for old land arrangements seems a fool’s errand, but the courts can look at the evidence and decide.  It’s unhealthy to wait for other people to save you, especially if you don’t trust these people.  It’s better to use the resources you have to achieve what you can. There are some water and infrastructure needs on reserves that must be addressed, but we should be teaching people to fish instead of handing over fish.  Self-determination requires self-sufficiency.  

You're right in that there's no easy way out. No political party wants to touch this political hot potato since the residential schools went so poorly. It's like the rest of Canada is traumatized too and that's part of the problem with being too past-focused on Indigenous policy. We need a here and now focus. What we are doing now is not working. They're in abject poverty in most areas. My family sends birthday items up North for kids, which is admirable, but also deplorable and embarrassing that it's like this in Canada.

It's basically apartheid. We look down on South Africa from our ivory tower while doing the exact same thing. 

It's all baked into the Constitution which makes it really hard to unwind. Three levels of government (federal, senate, and provincial) all have to sign off. 

Forcing native communities to be more democratic to get funding might be one option. Though I'm not sure that would be enough. Many of these areas are just so remote that the cost of living is astronomical. And that remoteness was by design, we didn't want them living near our cities historically.

[myata]

There's a general problem in Canada: a tradition, and a pattern of failure. Every massive failure even worse, one that affected many lives is a failure. There's nothing honorable, no achievement at all in crying over it, decades or centuries later it's is a worthless tradition that trivializes and normalizes failures, making them a permanent staple in the country's history. No, nothing can be done now. But here's some worthless money and some useless tears.

That was the problem. You won't fish anything there along the ideological divide. Both parties are complicit and produce failures as a regular pattern. Because of the culture of entitlement and near absolute absence of accountability and responsibility. Not to mention competition for the best skill or even basic competence. It guarantees that it will happen again and again. So save your tears and do like those happy bureaucrats do not that they say. Just doing our job, nothing personal. And nothing to do with us.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

It hasn't dawned on you that I don't believe they should get a damned thing more or less than what any other Canadian gets, has it?

And if that's the standard by which nations exist or cease to exist it amounts to a licence to invade us. No compensation or anything required.

[BeaverFever]

3 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Federal Indigenous spending, however, continues to grow faster than overall spending. It is projected to rise from about $25 billion in fiscal 2021-22 to about $35.5 billion in 2026-27, an increase of 42 percent in nominal dollars.

Indigenous spending continues to rise as a proportion of the federal budget, from 6.1 percent in 2019-20 to 7.7 percent in 2026-27—an increase of 26 percent in seven years.

Indigenous spending is increasingly driven by the negotiated settlement of class actions, such as those for Indian residential schools, Indian day schools, Indian hospitals, and boil-water advisories on Indian reserves.

The biggest of these settlements is the $40 billion child welfare settlement announced in December 2021.

The impact of this settlement upon Indigenous spending is difficult to observe because, under the principles of accrual accounting, much of it is backdated to earlier years.

The Trudeau government has missed all its previous budgetary targets for Indigenous spending, so the increases announced in Budget 2022 will probably prove to be underestimates, especially if class actions continue to put unpredictable pressures on Indigenous funding commitments.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/indigenous-spending-in-budget-2022#:~:text=Federal Indigenous spending%2C however%2C continues,42 percent in nominal dollars.

If it's useless, can we please have the money back?

How about I burn down your house and then pay you a $100 settlement AFTER FIGHTING YOU IN COURT FOR DECADES and losing then claim that fact that I paid you anything was proof of my generosity even thou I was forced to pay settlement you, then I call you greedy and ungrateful for not being satisfied with your $100 dollars then say “if that $100 is useless can I have the money back?”

By the way the actual program spending on s not tied to any community needs. Historically their get % of the budget because was tied to their % of the population and has only improved slightly since then because of JT’s promise to fix the boil water advisories which is still ongoing 

3 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Money. More money. Self-government. Control over vast lands. More money.

In reality the demands you caricature are no different than those of a province, which technically FN people don’t have. These small communities don’t have the benefit of a provincial ministry of health, education, transportation etc they are entirely on their own to deal with these matters and therefore cannot achieve economy scale for public services that are required. In addition the remote and minimally developed locations for many FN communities  makes the cost of service delivery even higher still. Historically they’ve had only the federal “Indian Affairs” department (the exact name changes from time to time), who is also often an adversary and an agent of the Indian Act, and who are not experts in any of these subject areas. Even though JT split this into 2 departments the reality remains that these small, scattered and often remote communities don’t have the resources or expertise for basic services. When non-FN people live in small towns their Province provides those towns adequate funding and access to provincial services even though those towns don’t generate sufficient tax revenue to pay for those services but nobody is doing that for FN   I think a solution to the Indian Act is to bring the FN bands into confederation collectively as a province. 
 

3 hours ago, I am Groot said:

I'm reminded of a quote from Thomas Sowell who said that after studying what he called 'lagging groups' all around the world in a variety of countries he determined that the leadership of those groups never want to lead them toward goals that will bring them equality and integration with the mainstream because that would rob them of their power. So instead they advocate policies that will keep them down.

In any paradigm there are people who benefit from preserving the status quo. There are certainly non-FN people who for centuries have benefited from policies that you admit keep FN down and continue to benefit from those policies. FN people are not the ones in power, they are running the country or the ones who have benefited from the Indian Act  

 

3 hours ago, I am Groot said:

We still have the Indian Act because native chiefs insist on keeping it.

Chiefs have no power to abolish the Indian Act of forbid the government from abolishing it. And besides the only Chiefs the federal government recognizes are the band council chiefs that were created by the Indian Act.  At the risk of overgeneralizing, these Chiefs are often wealthy local business owners whose interests are more aligned with non-FN industry and government. Many FN people consider these Indian Act chiefs to be illegitimate creatures of the federal government and instead follow hereditary or traditionally chosen chiefs, although the latter often have little real authority or recognition from the Canadian government. Many FN leaders have expressed opposition to the federal government unilaterally amending or abolishing the Indian Act without consultation or partnership to determine what it would be replaced with but nobody in the FN community says “keep the Indian Act it’s great”. 

Edited October 1, 2023 by BeaverFever

[herbie]

4 hours ago, I am Groot said:

It hasn't dawned on you that I don't believe they should get a damned thing more only less than what any other Canadian gets, has it?

FTFY Groot. Say it like you really want to. Tell us how some guy on the rez has so much more rights and opportunity than 'normal' Canadians... how you're the one suffering from discrimination.

Edited October 1, 2023 by herbie

[myata]

It may have been wrong. Even terrible. But I have not done it. And I have no affiliation to the bureaucracy that was responsible for it, and perpetrated it. So stop peddling the notion that I should have any notion and any trace of responsibility for their act and its consequences. Them is not me, a wrong logical connection. What they say is not a connection: a true connection should be a lot more. They set up the system the way that I de facto can change nothing in it only token push the button ritual every so many years. So they'll have to carry all responsibility. Obviously. None of my fault and nothing to do with me. That was easy.

How a democratic government should deal with responsibility for its acts, and failures? In a democracy, it's a notion. Not here, obviously. Just another piece of evidence.

That makes sense, to me at least. Every little thumb getting into a tall chair and begging assigning duties, guilts and responsibilities to me the moment their a$$ lands in it, none, really. It wasn't their job and it makes no sense but they forgot and why wouldn't they. If anyone still wants to remember.

[PIK]

As a taxpayer, I want to see all the books, or no more money. That will shut them up.