Trucker's Convoy

[Michael Hardner]

30 minutes ago, Winston said:

 Do we not care about an individual consent anymore? 

Your argument only works if you equate not being served in a restaurant with being forced to get the vaccine.

There are lots of examples of individual rights losing out to the rights of the collective.  If you are learning this for the first time, then go and read about it.

[WestCanMan]

3 minutes ago, Winston said:

If I may suggest, simplify the argument. We can talk about all the other issues, but the argument becomes blurry. Leave political, racial or class systems aside. 

What is the exact issue? Pick only one point and move forward. What is the primary problem with the mandates? Only one major point. 

If we want to solve the mandates, please pinpoint and focus on one objective at a time. 

The mandates are just one part of the overall lying narrative that we've consistently dealt with re: covid. 

[Zeitgeist]

2 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

There are 5000 new Covid cases in Ontario alone and over 300 Covid related deaths every day and this is a total underestimate. The true number is likely 3 times that much. With numbers so high it is not time to end mask mandates. It is generally viewed masks especially N95 would significantly protect transmission of the raspatory illnesses. Removing mask mandate would be a disaster now. 

You don’t have your facts straight at all.  It’s 56 deaths today in Ontario and the hospitalization rate is falling.  Our death rate is the result of our higher case numbers a while back.  It doesn’t matter.  The province couldn’t process all the tests or get enough tests out to people. The guidance on testing had to change. The case numbers are far higher than reported due to lack of testing.  Covid is everywhere.  It’s come through my organization.  I’m sure thousands of people didn’t know they had it or thought it was something else because the symptoms were mild.

To protect yourself you have multiple vaccines and more masks than we know what to do with.  We don’t need any further restrictions, mandates, use of passports, or other across the board measures to fight Covid.  Even the screening is killing us, forcing people who aren’t sick and their household members to stay home, making staffing difficult.

The frontline workers aren’t scared of getting Covid or overwhelmed by cases.  They’re burnt out from wearing all this crap and maintaining obsessive-compulsive, over the top protocols.

End all restrictions and mandates immediately!  Restore freedoms.  Respect the Charter.  This is Canada!

[Goddess]

14 hours ago, Moonbox said:

There are certainly other health issues we should focus more on, but they don't have a heck of a lot to do with vaccines

Totally agree with this part.

Great point.

[Infidel Dog]

15 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

ISure.  You're more likely to come in contact with vaccinated people than non-vaccinated people, considering they're 90% of the population.  Thank you for that brilliant insight. 

You're welcome and congratulations on finally figuring that basic fact out, at least.

Now we just have to get you to understand that if an infected person breathes on you they're just as likely to infect you whether they're vaccinated or not. Then we can do the math again to decide who's infecting whom.

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Infidel Dog

[Winston]

14 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Your argument only works if you equate not being served in a restaurant with being forced to get the vaccine.

There are lots of examples of individual rights losing out to the rights of the collective.  If you are learning this for the first time, then go and read about it.

If the unvaccinated are treated differently, in terms of freedom to attend a restaurant, they hold different freedoms than those who are vaccinated. Coerced or forced vaccine acceptance is extortion.

Agreed, but generally those rights are lost after court decision, with ample time and legal support. Are you referring to something else? 

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Winston

[blackbird]

17 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

The mandates are just one part of the overall lying narrative that we've consistently dealt with re: covid. 

The vaccine mandates have increased the number of people vaccinated, which is one of the main reasons they are implemented.  The other main reason is to protect the people who are working in the industries from catching Covid.  Vaccination is known to reduce the chances of spread. The more people that are vaccinated the lower the spread of the virus.  The hospital system is over loaded, thousands of people are on hold for life-saving surgeries and hospital nurses and doctors are burned out.   Many people awaiting surgery have died. The whole reason for such things as mandates is to save the health care system and save people's lives and health.  But if you think everything any experts or authorities say is a lie, there's not much anyone can say to you.  What would convince you?

When you call the health measures and mandates a lying narrative you show you don't believe in medical science.  

Edited January 30, 2022 by blackbird

[Goddess]

6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Accountability begins at home.

Agreed.

And those with the most power, should be be held the most accountable.

[Winston]

8 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

The mandates are just one part of the overall lying narrative that we've consistently dealt with re: covid. 

If you want to rally the public, keep things simple and objective. One or two objectives at a time at most. It also helps to solidify a position against those that hold opposing viewpoints.  

I understand there are many other issues at play.

[Goddess]

4 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

By the way, just because 90% of truckers are vaccinated does not mean they like it. What's at stake here is the requirement for CONTINUED UPKEEP of the vaccine schedule, which they would have signed onto in a new employment agreement.

I dated a trucker for a while.  You would not believe how many health examinations they have to go through to keep their licenses. Some yearly, some monthly, some every 3 years.  

They see doctors, specialists, optometrists, ENT people, drug testers more than the average person. 

[Winston]

3 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The vaccine mandates have increased the number of people vaccinated, which is one the main reasons they are implemented. 

If people are threatened or extorted, generally people will do the bidding of the extorter.

Should consent no longer be an ethical position we hold?

[myata]

This has been discussed to death. An individual has the right of choice of what goes into their body.

Any discrimination by this choice is a type of coercion. Overriding this right for any reason, given that bodily autonomy is one of the most fundamental human rights requires a high standard of: essential public benefit; and effectiveness that has to proven objectively.

None has been demonstrated so far in the case of coerced vaccination. There's no demonstrated overriding public benefit and neither the effectiveness of vaccines in achieving it. Coerced vaccination cannot be justified other than in very specific environments.

Edited January 30, 2022 by myata

[blackbird]

26 minutes ago, Winston said:

If I may suggest, simplify the argument. We can talk about all the other issues, but the argument becomes blurry. Leave political, racial or class systems aside. 

What is the exact issue? Pick only one point and move forward. What is the primary problem with the mandates? Only one major point. 

If we want to solve the mandates, please pinpoint and focus on one objective at a time. 

West Can Man has already said the whole Covid thing (the health measures) is a lying narrative.  You claimed to believe in science.  If you really believe in science, why are you agreeing with people who deny the medical science?

Edited January 30, 2022 by blackbird

[blackbird]

8 minutes ago, myata said:

This has been discussed to death. An individual has the right of choice of what goes into their body.

Any discrimination by this choice is a type of coercion. Overriding this right for any reason, given that bodily autonomy is one of the most fundamental human rights requires a high standard of: essential public benefit; and effectiveness that has to proven objectively.

None has been demonstrated so far in the case of coerced vaccination. There's no demonstrated overriding public benefit and neither the effectiveness of vaccines in achieving it. Coerced vaccination cannot be justified other than in very specific environments.

Sure you have the right to choose what goes into your body, but if you want to work in certain jobs, you have no right to spread Covid to other people by not being vaccinated.  That is the point.  You can refuse to be vaccinated and lose the job because your right to choose not to be vaccinated does not trump other people's right to expect as much safety as possible in the job.

Edited January 30, 2022 by blackbird

[Michael Hardner]

19 minutes ago, Winston said:

1. If the unvaccinated are treated differently, in terms of freedom to attend a restaurant, they hold different freedoms than those who are vaccinated. Coerced or forced vaccine acceptance is extortion.

2. Agreed, but generally those rights are lost after court decision, with ample time and legal support. Are you referring to something else? 

 

1.  I would say forced vaccine says you are physically vaccinated against your will, period.
2. No they're not.  Many of those rights have been in law since forever.  Drug laws ?  Refusing blood transfusions ?   Maybe some were tested but there's lots of examples...

[Winston]

6 minutes ago, blackbird said:

West Can Man has already said the whole Covid thing (the health measures) is a lying narrative.  You claimed to believe in science.  If you really believe in science, why are you agreeing with people who deny the medical science?

I am not West Can Man. Go talk with him.

You also did not answer my question " Should consent no longer be an ethical position we hold?"

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Winston

[myata]

5 minutes ago, blackbird said:

certain jobs, you have no right to spread Covid to other people by not being vaccinated. 

This statement contains a correct part and a wrong, factually false part. It is correct that in some environments even limited protection against infection and transmission offered by vaccines can be necessary; it is not unconditionally tied to the vaccines but to the level of protection; if a better instrument or mechanism is found, there would be no reasons to require vaccinations in these environments anymore.

The part that Covid is spread only by non vaccinated is so obviously false that there's no need to discuss it.

Edited January 30, 2022 by myata

[blackbird]

1 minute ago, Winston said:

I am not West Can Man. Go talk with him.

I talked to him.  You commented to him and I replied to you.  I thought you were a champion for believing the science.  The science tells us the measures to fight Covid work.  A lot of people here deny the science.

[Goddess]

3 hours ago, Aristides said:

 

Does if you catch it.

So if you are vaccinated, you have X % level of protection, correct?

And we all know now that BOTH the vaccinated and the unvaccinated spread covid.

The virus comes along.

Are you telling me that a Vaccinated person's coronavirus will NOT infect you, but an Unvaccinated person's coronavirus will?

[Winston]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1.  I would say forced vaccine says you are physically vaccinated against your will, period.
2. No they're not.  Many of those rights have been in law since forever.  Drug laws ?  Refusing blood transfusions ?  

Limiting someone's freedom based on vaccination status is extortion with the intent to coerce vaccine acceptance by use of threats/force.

Elaborate please?

 

[blackbird]

1 minute ago, myata said:

This statement contains a correct part and a wrong, factually false part. It is correct that in some environments even limited protection against infection and transmission offered by vaccines can be necessary; it's is not unconditionally tied to the vaccines but to the level of protection; if a better instrument or mechanism is found, there would be reasons to require vaccinations in these environments.

The part that Covid is spread only by non vaccinated is so obviously false that there's no need to discuss it.

So you categorically reject the medical science that says vaccinated people are less likely to spread Covid than unvaccinated people.  That's the point.  That's the reason for vaccine mandates.  Check the medical science.

[Winston]

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

I talked to him.  You commented to him and I replied to you.  I thought you were a champion for believing the science.  The science tells us the measures to fight Covid work.  A lot of people here deny the science.

Until you answer my question I would not bother answering yours.

[WestCanMan]

7 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The vaccine mandates have increased the number of people vaccinated, which is one of the main reasons they are implemented.  The other main reason is to protect the people who are working in the industries from catching Covid.  Vaccination is known to reduce the chances of spread. The more people that are vaccinated the lower the spread of the virus.  The hospital system is over loaded, thousands of people are on hold for life-saving surgeries and hospital nurses and doctors are burned out.   Many people awaiting surgery have died. The whole reason for such things as mandates is to save the health care system and save people's lives and health. 

That's all just bluster.

Vaccinated people are getting as sick as anyone else right now. 

Over 500 'fully protected' people have died in Canada in the last month. 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1257040/number-covid-deaths-canada-by-vaccination-status/ In late Dec there were 981 deaths by fully vaxed, now there are over 1,500.

Quote

But if you think everything any experts or authorities say is a lie, there's not much anyone can say to you.  What would convince you?

I don't have to tell you that they lie. You know that they lie.

Is H2H occurring? 

Is it really racist and stupid to consider that a BSL4 lab was the source of the virus, and not a wet market?

The vaccines were promised to be safe before we got them. Why isn't the J&J vax here anymore? The Pfizer and Moderna jabs are both KNOWN to cause myocarditis. Is J&J what you'd call "safe"? Pfizer? Moderna?

When you watch Global, CTV and CBC you're told that kids need to be vaxed to fight of covid, but that's a lie too: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1228632/number-covid-deaths-canada-by-age/ Only 27 people from 10,000,000 under-20s in this country died so far. Does that scream "we need to vaccinate these people!" to you? Would you take a vax with serious side-effects to avoid a 27/10,000,000 chance of dying? Cars are 50x as dangerous for kids. If your kid needs a vax, they should never go in a car. 

 

 

I don't "think" that the government is lying. I know it, and I just proved it. Don't ever sit there and act like you don't know whether or not the gov't is lying to you about this. You'd have to be a complete and total idiot to believe them right now. 

I'm saying that stats don't lie. 

If you think that my stats are a lie then find "the true stats" blackbird. Let's see what stats you can find that shows a whole shwack of young, healthy dead Canadians under 20. It's put up or shut up time. 

[blackbird]

2 minutes ago, Goddess said:

So if you are vaccinated, you have X % level of protection, correct?

And we all know now that BOTH the vaccinated and the unvaccinated spread covid.

The virus comes along.

Are you telling me that a Vaccinated person's coronavirus will NOT infect you, but an Unvaccinated person's coronavirus will?

The medical disease experts say vaccinated people are LESS LIKELY to spread the virus.  They didn't say they absolutely won't spread it.  Big difference between less likely and don't spread it.  Why don't you accept the medical science?

[blackbird]

2 minutes ago, Winston said:

Until you answer my question I would not bother answering yours.

Because you have no answer.  You support the anti-science, anti-authority Covid deniers.  Don't answer then.