Trudeau says intelligence shows India was behind slaying of Sikh leader in Surrey, B.C.

[SpankyMcFarland]

5 hours ago, betsy said:

There's so much at stake here.  India has always been a friend.  And trading partner.

 

 

 

So are these clowns saying we should ignore foreign assassinations here? Would they do that in the US?

India hasn’t always been a friend to Canada nor much of a trading partner. 

 

 

 

 

 

[SpankyMcFarland]

You may not know this so it’s great I’ve a chance to tell you. Canada is a very dangerous place for Indian students.

Quote

https://twitter.com/MEAIndia/status/1704423322275230004/photo/1

 

 

 

[Army Guy]

8 hours ago, Aristides said:

There is no difference to the killers. You want to let them make the rules over who lives and dies in Canada?

We don’t have capital punishment but you are welcome to come here and kill anyone you think has wronged you?

So it is bad if it happens in our country, but not if "we" do it in another country....The longest kill by a sniper was set by a Canadian SOF guy operating in Syria, killing terrorists...deemed terrorist by this nation...where is the line in the sand....

[eyeball]

5 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

So it is bad if it happens in our country, but not if "we" do it in another country....The longest kill by a sniper was set by a Canadian SOF guy operating in Syria, killing terrorists...deemed terrorist by this nation...where is the line in the sand....

It's worse when we do it because we claim to know better.

[WestCanMan]

9 hours ago, Aristides said:

There is no difference to the killers. You want to let them make the rules over who lives and dies in Canada?

Not at all.

However, I'm a big proponent of self-defence. Live and let live. 

When a guy is hiding behind Justin's skirt, organizing terrorist attacks and trying to de-stabilize the gov't in another country, that's not an example of "live and let live". I don't care what happens to that guy, 

[Nexii]

There should be laws against inciting terrorism abroad. Does our Criminal Code only apply to acts in Canada? 

[Zeitgeist]

4 hours ago, cougar said:

The Indian government had designated that individual as a terrorist.

The American government designated Osama Bin Laden as a terrorist and went into Pakistan and killed him.

Kind of the same thing when you look at it.

Yup, and since the failure to bring justice to the Air India bombers, Canada probably isn’t held in high regard for addressing threats to India.  

[PIK]

Can't the GG call a election somehow?

[Army Guy]

28 minutes ago, eyeball said:

It's worse when we do it because we claim to know better.

I agree if we are going to get up on the soap box, and preach to the world we should not have blood on our hands, or atleast not dripping blood...

What should have happened, was we should have handed him over to the India government and let them deal with him in their own way....

But we are a nation that pays terrorist big dollars , Omar was not the first and not the last...we should have shipped his ass back to Afghanistan to stand trail there...like we do with other criminals.  

[Army Guy]

20 minutes ago, Nexii said:

There should be laws against inciting terrorism abroad. Does our Criminal Code only apply to acts in Canada? 

There are laws, we just do not enforce them very well, we do however pay terrorist for breaking any of their rights 

[WestCanMan]

51 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

You may not know this so it’s great I’ve a chance to tell you. Canada is a very dangerous place for Indian students.

It's bad when other countries are spouting false propaganda about your country.

"The people who live in that country are vile." (I.e., not worth saving)

This is the kind of rhetoric that the US uses against Russia. The same kind of rhetoric that Iran uses against Israel.

They are talking about us. Me and you and your mom and your neighbour. It's us.

We are hated now. 

[Nexii]

Well I don't think we should have handed him over. They'd have executed him. One we don't have the death penalty and two that doesn't really show much strength. 

Granted, I am pro-death penalty for crimes of mass murder beyond any doubt. But only if directly culpable 

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

It's the World Sikh Org that says that he's the leader of the KTF, and the KTF claim responsibility for murdered cops.

I don't see a lot of wiggle room, unless he denied being the leader of the KTF.

Well he did deny it - but of course that doesn't prove he wasn't either.  And the indians never claimed he was THE leader - they know he wasn't - but that he was "a" leader, meaning he was high up in the org but not leading it.

And they didn't provide much proof of that as far as i can see.

Here's the thing - i see references that say india discussed extradition with Canada and we do have a treaty for that with india. They just have to provide reasonable evidence that a criminal charge is reasonably justified.  BUt he was never extradited.

Which tells me that they didn't have that evidence. Or couldn't provide it for some reason which isn't our fault.

[WestCanMan]

6 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Well he did deny it - but of course that doesn't prove he wasn't either.  And the indians never claimed he was THE leader - they know he wasn't - but that he was "a" leader, meaning he was high up in the org but not leading it.

And they didn't provide much proof of that as far as i can see.

Here's the thing - i see references that say india discussed extradition with Canada and we do have a treaty for that with india. They just have to provide reasonable evidence that a criminal charge is reasonably justified.  BUt he was never extradited.

Which tells me that they didn't have that evidence. Or couldn't provide it for some reason which isn't our fault.

Another possible reason for us not extraditing him is that our gov't was concerned that he might face the death penalty or be tortured/mistreated. 

I think it's fair for us to give our own violent criminals the soft treatment but we seem to be doing it to criminals who attack other countries a lot. Our justice system is really drawing the ire of a lot of powerful countries. 

Edited September 20, 2023 by WestCanMan

[eyeball]

7 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

What should have happened, was we should have handed him over to the India government and let them deal with him in their own way....

The evidence India presents would have to pass our legal system and constitutional standards beforehand though.

9 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Omar was not the first and not the last...we should have shipped his ass back to Afghanistan to stand trail there...like we do with other criminals.  

Not according to our legal system, Constitution and international agreements about kids and war that we've signed.

Thankfully there's just so much you need to change to let the government do what it is you want it to do that it'll never happen.

Not without terrorism and an armed insurrection it seems. How ironic.

[SpankyMcFarland]

As I’ve already pointed out, some of the terrorist cases in India are grotesque. If you’re advocating for the rights of Dalits, Tribals or other marginalized groups, expect to be called a Maoist revolutionary.

Quote

As the Register reported at the time of Father Swamy’s arrest in October 2020, the priest, who championed the rights of oppressed tribal indigenous peoples, was detained along with 15 other human-rights activists, academics and lawyers on terrorism charges related to the “Bhima Koregaon conspiracy.” The controversial arrests, carried out on the grounds that the social justice advocates allegedly were all associated with a banned Maoist organization, provoked world-wide condemnations, including a posthumous resolution honoring Father Swamy’s life and work in the U.S. Congress in July 2022. 

“Everyone at the meeting was anguished about denial of justice for Father Stan, who dedicated his life for the poor and died branded as a terrorist,” Jesuit Father P.M. Antony, director of the Bagicha Center, told the Register after the Dec. 21 meeting. 

https://frontline.thehindu.com/cover-story/the-16-activists-arrested-in-relation-to-the-bhima-koregaon-case-are-victims-of-witch-hunt/article35259424.ece

https://www.ncregister.com/news/anger-and-silence-over-revelations-indicating-father-stan-swamy-was-framed

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-59933451

For Muslims you can fill it in yourself - say anything about the crackdown in Kashmir while actually in Kashmir and you are liable to disappear (sounds like a song). There’s a reason VS Naipaul’s book about the country bore the title, India: A Million Mutinies Now. The place is held together by many things but brute force applied with scant respect for the rule of law is certainly one them. While it may not be China (yet), it sure as heck ain’t Norway either. 

Edited September 21, 2023 by SpankyMcFarland

[CdnFox]

12 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Another possible reason for us not extraditing him is that our gov't was concerned that he might face the death penalty or be tortured/mistreated. 

 

Possibly but all they would have to do in that case is say they'd lock him up for life or the like.

Quote

I think it's fair for us to give our own violent criminals the soft treatment but we seem to be doing it to criminals who attack other countries a lot. Our justice system is really drawing the ire of a lot of powerful countries. 

Well then we should look at our policies.  But they are OUR policies. And if others don't like it too damn bad, that does not give them the right to kill people inside our country

 

[WestCanMan]

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

Well then we should look at our policies.  But they are OUR policies. And if others don't like it too damn bad, that does not give them the right to kill people inside our country

TBH I think this was handled well.

The threat to India is lessened, our gov't doesn't have to do a high-profile investigation into a dark-skinned male which will make us look bad no matter what we eventually conclude, there's no expensive trial, nor is there an expensive extradition case to follow. 

It cost India one bullet, and our reputation can't get any worse anyways. 

We did a really excellent job of avoiding an investigation into Nijjar, or doing anything about his nefarious actions, I hope we can follow that up with an equally excellent job of not investigating his death.

I heard a rumour that he had some evidence against the Clintons, and that he just randomly committed suicide. 

[WestCanMan]

24 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

As I’ve already pointed out, some of the terrorist cases in India are grotesque. 

Meaning what? The attacks are grotesque or the miscarriage of justice and maltreatment of prisoners is grotesque? 

Do you have some examples?

Just keep in mind, that country has a lot more bad history than we do. A genocide of 10M people is still in living memory there. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

29 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Meaning what? The attacks are grotesque or the miscarriage of justice and maltreatment of prisoners is grotesque? 

Do you have some examples?

Just keep in mind, that country has a lot more bad history than we do. A genocide of 10M people is still in living memory there. 

Meaning that an accusation of terrorism in India merely means you have annoyed the government in some way. It does not necessarily imply that there is evidence of a standard admissible in a Canadian court supporting a charge that you carried out violent acts. The authorities just bring a claim to court, say it’s related to national security and throw you in jail for years. The whole point is to delay a trial because the evidence is often rubbish. Some more info on the Swamy case:

Quote

The Washington Post noted at the time that India’s anti-terror law, amended in 2019, allows the government to designate an individual as a terrorist and detain people for up to six months without producing any evidence. Further, the accused can subsequently be imprisoned for up to seven years. “Critics have called the law draconian, and accuse Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s government of using it to mute dissent.”

Two days before his arrest, Swamy had said in a video message posted on YouTube that he feared he would be arrested because he fought against the government’s indiscriminate arrest of thousands of young aboriginal people and local settlers who question big business projects that strip them of their land.

“During the past three decades I have tried to identify myself with the Adivasi (aboriginal) people and their struggle for a life of dignity and self-respect,” Swamy said. “As a writer, I have tried to analyze the different issues they are faced with. In this process, I have clearly expressed dissent with several policies, laws enacted by the government in light of the Constitution.”

https://www.christianpost.com/news/u-s-congressman-demands-india-investigate-death-father-stan-swamy-prison.html

 

One thing India isn’t short of is good examples of bad behaviour by the authorities:

Quote

Mohammed Irfan was 24 and newly married. Business was brisk at his modest battery shop. And within two months he was expecting the birth of his first child.

All seemed well, until a counterterrorism squad in August 2012 entered his store in Nanded, a city in India’s Maharashtra state, and arrested him for allegedly plotting to kill Indian politicians.

Quote

Irfan was finally released in June 2021 after an Indian court acknowledged he was wrongly jailed. By then, he had already spent nine years in prison.

 

The following statistic says all that needs to be said about this law:

 

Quote

Only 2.2% of cases registered under the law from 2016 to 2019 ended in a court conviction. Nearly 11% of cases were closed by the police for lack of evidence.

2.2%! Even for India’s notoriously ramshackle system of justice that sounds a little low. 
 

https://apnews.com/article/india-991831e0e69d516fe2eff4a7a928f2df
 

When a foreign country sends you evidence for extradition, a certain level of trust is required. India is clearly struggling to meet that level. 

Edited September 21, 2023 by SpankyMcFarland

[WestCanMan]

4 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Meaning that an accusation of terrorism in India merely means you have annoyed the government in some way. It does not necessarily imply that there is evidence of a standard admissible in a Canadian court suggesting that you carried out violent acts. The authorities just bring a claim to court, say it’s related to national security and throw you in jail for years.

Sounds like the US.

TBH, terrorism is more real over in India than it is here, and what you may consider 'scant evidence' may actually be a lot.

One of the reasons that so many terrorist attacks are committed by people "who were known to the police" is because the existence of known baddies in the public is of a lot of value to the law enforcement community. They can monitor that person's contacts and piece together networks, which will help them to identify other persons of interest. 

If so-and-so is a terrorist leader, and you're constantly in contact with him and other terrorists with whom you have no other reason to associate, then they know that you are a terrorist. Chances are that they also spied on you via your phone, email, hidden cameras, moles, etc, and they don't want to reveal their methods because if they do, then the other terrorists will adapt. (Eg Churchill... Enigma machine... Coventry)

They actually do know, they just can't prove it by the old standards.

And just remember, no one is ever guilty by their own admission, unless they're getting a plea bargain. No one ever did steroids either. No one was ever the bad one in their relationship. Literally everyone accused of anything is innocent. Everyone is a victim. Etc. They will all scream INNOCENT!

In Canada terrorist attacks are so infrequent that we can err on the side of letting some guys slip through the cracks. In places like Israel and India they have no choice but to be very aggressive. The threats and the number of threats are far more real. 

 

[WestCanMan]

23 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

https://www.christianpost.com/news/u-s-congressman-demands-india-investigate-death-father-stan-swamy-prison.html

It's possible that this guy was a political prisoner. Democracy is on the downslide everywhere. 

[betsy]

9 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Well he did deny it - but of course that doesn't prove he wasn't either.  And the indians never claimed he was THE leader - they know he wasn't - but that he was "a" leader, meaning he was high up in the org but not leading it.

And they didn't provide much proof of that as far as i can see.

Here's the thing - i see references that say india discussed extradition with Canada and we do have a treaty for that with india. They just have to provide reasonable evidence that a criminal charge is reasonably justified.  BUt he was never extradited.

Which tells me that they didn't have that evidence. Or couldn't provide it for some reason which isn't our fault.

 

 

How come he's listed with the INTERPOL as the leader with regards to that bombing in Punjab??

 

I'd like to know why he was rejected to be in Canada for 2 or three times!

Edited September 21, 2023 by betsy

[betsy]

On 9/19/2023 at 2:15 PM, CdnFox said:

I'm always up for it - and we did with Harper.  "China - Don't you DARE invite the dalai lama to your country or we won't trade with you!"   Harper - "Eff you, i'm having him around for tea thursday. AND i'm putting out the good biscuits"

The fact trudeau has been lazy in the past is no reason not to do the right things now.

 

 

Lol - that's not a comparison!  Unless the dalai lama is accused of terrorism, and is listed on the INTERPOL!

 

 

15 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Right.  So my point is that we need to know more details about this guy and the accusations against him, and against the Indian government.  There's a lot of unproven claims being made by everyone.

I really don't think we'll learn the truth though because of all the politicking that's happening, unless some investigative journalism uncovers some things

 

 

I agree - that's why I'm saying, all we have right now are Trudeau's words!  Pardon me for being a skeptic......but Trudeau needs a manna from heaven right now to distract from his failings as a PM, not to mention his sinking poll numbers.

 

But we do know that this man was listed on the INTERPOL as the leader of the bombing in Punjab.  That kinda supports Modi's accusation. 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by betsy

[QuebecOverCanada]

On 9/19/2023 at 8:35 PM, SpankyMcFarland said:

I notice those defending this killing, like Terry Glavin at the NP, don’t spend too much on Modi’s history of targeting minorities and dissidents in his own country. It’s an ugly record. The label ‘world’s biggest democracy’ deserves an asterisk.  

Exactly.

The Indian democracy has deep flaws, one being that ethnic groups really vote for their ethnic party rather than a national party uniting them all.

That, and the fact that there are so many discrepancies throughout regions when it comes to education, income, sanitation, that it is unlikely that many in the slums have the same access to voting but also to knowledge in general.

A society where a majority earns less than $300 a month might not make the most enlightened democratic political choice compared to one with higher income, education, etc.

7 hours ago, betsy said:

But we do know that this man was listed on the INTERPOL as the leader of the bombing in Punjab.  That kinda supports Modi's accusation. 

Modi was literally on a terrorist watch list and banned from flying to the US due to his encouragement of riots/killings of minorities in the 2000s.

Is he trustworthy?