EXCLUSIVE: Smith reluctant to wade into debate on gender pronouns, Alberta wont' pass law right now

[CdnFox]

https://www.westernstandard.news/alberta/exclusive-smith-reluctant-to-wade-into-debate-on-gender-pronouns/article_2f050082-42c6-11ee-9307-23d3340e6940.html

 

PEI, sask man, even ontario is passing legislation or making statments that parents have rights that superced  the kids -  and ALBERTA of all provinces IS COMING OUT ON THE SIDE OF  CHILD TRANS RIGHTS?!!?

  ya know - i never really appreciated the term "Gobsmacked" until right this minute.

Edited August 29, 2023 by CdnFox

[BeaverFever]

As you say conservatives supposedly are the ones who believe in maximum freedom….maybe just maybe some in Smith’s camp feel that laws from the provincial capital imposed on local schools whether they like it not isn’t freedom.  
 

The original “freedom” conservatives used to claim to believe that government had no business wading in to these types of matters and instead preferred letting local communities, school boards, schools and parents figure these things out for themselves. The new “Nationalist “ conservatives believe that conservative governments have an urgent moral duty to use government power wherever and whenever possible to impose a conservative society on the public whether they want it or not, hence letting local stakeholders decide is unacceptable to them.  People like Smith are caught in the crossroads between these 2 rival factions of conservatism  battling for control of the right wing parties so we’ll probably see more waffling and half measures on these types of issues in the short term. 

Edited August 29, 2023 by BeaverFever

[CdnFox]

9 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

As you say conservatives supposedly are the ones who believe in maximum freedom….maybe just maybe some in Smith’s camp feel that laws from the provincial capital imposed on local schools whether they like it not isn’t freedom. 

It's not about freedom (not that i'd expect a leftist to understand the term in any case).  It's a question of responsibility,

Who is responsible in the end for the health and life of a child?  Do we let 10 year olds make their own life altering decisions? Is the education system which has zero medical training and is not a legal guardian most of the time the one who should make decisions?  Or - are the parents of the child who are legally responsible to provide the necessaries of life to the child the people who have that responsibility?  Freedom doesn't come into it at all.  Children are under the care of a guardian - who's the guardian? The guardian has a right to know about the physical health of the child.

Quote

The original “freedom” conservatives used to claim to believe that government had no business wading in to these types of matters and instead preferred letting local communities, school boards, schools and parents figure these things out for themselves.

Nope.  Gender dysphoria is a medical condition. It's like saying " I want the freedom to have cancer as a child".  That is NOT how it works.

Homosexuality is a naturally occurring and normal state that is stable - people can be gay and live long happy lives that way without 'treatment' or any other such thing.  It's not genetic per se but it's just who you are.

Gender dysphoria is a SERIOUS medical condition and it is very very unlikely you will grow up happy and healthy unless you receive treatment. it is also very easy to misdiagnose - many later report that they regret transitioning. You don't get a lot of gay people turning 30 and saying "oh - i guess i wasn't gay after all".

Parents have a right to know about their children's medical health and traditionally conservatives AND liberals supported that idea.  Now the libs virtue signal that the best way to care about the kid is to hide info from the parents (who are going to find out at some point and be SUPER pissed they were lied to so how does that make it better). 

I would expect alberta not to walk the path of the virtue signal while all the other normally more left leaning provinces reject it

 

[BeaverFever]

20 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

It's not about freedom (not that i'd expect a leftist to understand the term in any case).  It's a question of responsibility,

Lol you’re for freedom except when you determine “responsibility” is more important.   Did it ever occur to you when you’re crying about liberals’ supposed infringement on “freedoms” that they are are also doing so out of “responsibility”?  When it come to addressing climate change, pollution, worker’s rights, its “freedom at all costs and damn the consequences ” but if comes to someone’s pronouns, the government has a “responsibility” to impose its values and damn the freedoms. 
 

As for the rest your post, my only question related to why it must be a HEAVY HANDED LAW from the PROVINCIAL CAPITAL and not something decided upon locally. Obviously it’s a matter of OPINION and OPINIONS vary from person to person and from one school community another so why not let them figure out the issue for themselves?  The pronouns used by some random student is really not something that a premier needs to concern themselves with. 

Edited August 29, 2023 by BeaverFever

[Nexii]

I think the jury's still out on the 'many regret transitioning' narrative. The media cherrypicks. The truth is there haven't been good studies done on much of it because both sides would rather play political football than find out. Can anyone say the % definitively that detransition post-surgery? Post-being on hormones for a year? I'd bet it's very low for those that start in adulthood. And probably not much higher for teens. 

That being said there's not medical argument against just going by a different name or pronoun. That doesn't require medical intervention

It's a little disturbing tbh the social conservative view that parents can treat their children like chattel until they're 18. Yea of course kids shouldn't be getting surgery till they're adults, and that's already the case. But it's not like teens can't make responsible decisions either.

[eyeball]

45 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

The original “freedom” conservatives used to claim to believe that government had no business wading in to these types of matters and instead preferred letting local communities, school boards, schools and parents figure these things out for themselves

Where the original conservatives able to resist the fear and hyperbole new conservatives employ when wading into things?  For example, making it sound like 10 year olds are being given permission to get sex change treatments without their parents consent?

And what about medical, education experts and scientists? I guess one could hope there are enough of these in your community to add to the mix but if not were the original conservatives smart enough to know when they were out of their depth?

[West]

Smith is a wolf just like Kenney. That entire party is messed up

11 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Where the original conservatives able to resist the fear and hyperbole new conservatives employ when wading into things?  For example, making it sound like 10 year olds are being given permission to get sex change treatments without their parents consent?

And what about medical, education experts and scientists? I guess one could hope there are enough of these in your community to add to the mix but if not were the original conservatives smart enough to know when they were out of their depth?

In my view parents have a right to be informed about anything significant related to their child. 

The school system has confused a bunch of people. Something like 20% of gen z identifies as LGBT.. compares to like 2% 30 years ago..  social conditioning by wierdos

[Nexii]

It was always 15% or so, Kinsey studies in the 1950s showed that

[Queenmandy85]

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Who is responsible in the end for the health and life of a child?  Do we let 10 year olds make their own life altering decisions?

The 10 year old child is not deciding to make life altering decisions. As you correctly say below, it has been with them since birth.

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Gender dysphoria is a medical condition. It's like saying " I want the freedom to have cancer as a child".  That is NOT how it works.

Homosexuality is a naturally occurring and normal state that is stable

A child who's gender personality is different from their body is not a matter of a decision. It is who they are. The problem is some parents lack the knowledge that enables them to provide the appropriate support. 

It seems to me that Premier Smith has always been supportive of the LGBTQ community. I stand to be corrected on that, but that has been my impression.

[CdnFox]

3 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The 10 year old child is not deciding to make life altering decisions. As you correctly say below, it has been with them since birth.

so who is.  The teacher or the parent.  The fact they've had a condition since birth does not mean somone isn't deciding about treatment now.

Quote

A child who's gender personality is different from their body is not a matter of a decision. It is who they are.

It is not who they are any more than being a cancer patient is 'who you are'. They have an illness. It requires treatment. '

Quote

The problem is some parents lack the knowledge that enables them to provide the appropriate support. 

Then it is the PARENTS job to to go experts and THEN DECIDE what to do.

Teachers have even less knoweldge.  Do you get a psychology degree to become a teacher today?

It is NOT up to the state to raise people's children for them.  I know - i know  - with you liberals it's all "beer and popcorn" and "parents aren't qualified to raise kids, if we leave it to parents they'll grow up to be criminals". etc etc.   But sorry - parents are who should be raising children.

 

Quote

It seems to me that Premier Smith has always been supportive of the LGBTQ community. I stand to be corrected on that, but that has been my impression.

Sure why not.  But that has nothing to do with the medical treatment of children OR the parents right to know.

[Nexii]

5 hours ago, eyeball said:

Where the original conservatives able to resist the fear and hyperbole new conservatives employ when wading into things?  For example, making it sound like 10 year olds are being given permission to get sex change treatments without their parents consent?

And what about medical, education experts and scientists? I guess one could hope there are enough of these in your community to add to the mix but if not were the original conservatives smart enough to know when they were out of their depth?

IMO the media is as bad, despite how left-leaning it is

Most people aren't even informed as to what the age of consent for hormones and surgery are today

But yea, CPC is definitely going to shoot themselves in the foot on certain social issues. Harper was smarter and just avoided giving in. He had their votes anyways so who cares

[Nexii]

Homosexuality was considered a medical condition until the 1970s

Same with trans, it's being declassified bit by bit by psychologists

For sure the left wing carte blanche approach is dangerous. But the right wing 'can't transition in any way until 18' approach is even worse.

Problem is, the science is poor, politically loaded stuff just doesn't get funding in research circles. And if it does it's often with a political agenda that isn't helping trans achieve better outcomes. A lot of the views and questions asked are like something out of the 1970s when starting transition. And same goes on with the rest of it down the medical line 

 

[Zeitgeist]

14 hours ago, CdnFox said:

https://www.westernstandard.news/alberta/exclusive-smith-reluctant-to-wade-into-debate-on-gender-pronouns/article_2f050082-42c6-11ee-9307-23d3340e6940.html

 

PEI, sask man, even ontario is passing legislation or making statments that parents have rights that superced  the kids -  and ALBERTA of all provinces IS COMING OUT ON THE SIDE OF  CHILD TRANS RIGHTS?!!?

  ya know - i never really appreciated the term "Gobsmacked" until right this minute.

I said before that Smith’s woke detractors got it wrong.  She is woke.  This has been the problem for several years now.  There’s no alternative to the radical left activists who have taken over all mainstream parties.  Canada doesn’t respect the rights of families to have healthy family lives.  One must support state-funded assisted death, free hard drugs, and treatments to transition confused kids to other genders in order to have acceptable views.  If you don’t, you’re an alt right victim of American misinformation.  Trudeau told Muslims this with a straight face. 

[herbie]

AFAIC it's about the only sensible political decision she's ever made.

Of course the ignoroids object to it.

[Nexii]

Could say there's also no alternative to the radical right either. FWIW I'm not for MAID the way it's set up right now or free hard drugs.

But if you lived being trans, you probably wouldn't say 18 is acceptable to do anything about it. Nor that most trans kids are suffering confusion or whatever weird narratives the right cooks up. I knew exactly what I was by age 9 and it never changed.

Some middle ground like 14 for hormones and 18 for surgery is probably reasonable. Teenagers are not kids. Our society's view that 17 is a kid but you magically turn an adult at 18 is super weird. Especially considering all the other laws like age of consent being 14 in Canada for almost all of its history, 16 as the driving age, by 12 you can decide which parent to live with in divorce, mature minors can make major medical decisions, etc.. 

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, Nexii said:

Homosexuality was considered a medical condition until the 1970s

Same with trans, it's being declassified bit by bit by psychologists

For sure the left wing carte blanche approach is dangerous. But the right wing 'can't transition in any way until 18' approach is even worse.

Problem is, the science is poor, politically loaded stuff just doesn't get funding in research circles. And if it does it's often with a political agenda that isn't helping trans achieve better outcomes. A lot of the views and questions asked are like something out of the 1970s when starting transition. And same goes on with the rest of it down the medical line 

 

Most cases of dysphoria pass by the time kids reach adulthood, so the likelihood that life changing treatment could be regretted later on is high.  Surgery and/or hormone therapy isn’t the only answer to dysphoria.  What’s more, an educational approach that makes it appear as though transitioning isn’t a big deal and that gender can be chosen without regard to biological gender is reckless and dangerous.  Keep it out of schools unless a student comes forward expressing dysphoria.  Kids should be heard and told that if they want the school to use pronouns, that parents should be part of the conversation unless there’s concern about parental abuse.  Let kids figure out their bodies and adjust to the natural hormonal changes that are hard enough without inserting a choose your gender instruction kit.  

[West]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Most cases of dysphoria pass by the time kids reach adulthood, so the likelihood that life changing treatment could be regretted later on is high.  Surgery and/or hormone therapy isn’t the only answer to dysphoria.  What’s more, an educational approach that makes it appear as though transitioning isn’t a big deal and that gender can be chosen without regard to biological gender is reckless and dangerous.  Keep it out of schools unless a student comes forward expressing dysphoria.  Kids should be heard and told that if they want the school to use pronouns, that parents should be part of the conversation unless there’s concern about parental abuse.  Let kids figure out their bodies and adjust to the natural hormonal changes that are hard enough without inserting a choose your gender instruction kit.  

Yup.. 

Kids are confused about alot of things including zits and armpit hair at that age. 

[Army Guy]

8 hours ago, Nexii said:

I think the jury's still out on the 'many regret transitioning' narrative. The media cherrypicks. The truth is there haven't been good studies done on much of it because both sides would rather play political football than find out. Can anyone say the % definitively that detransition post-surgery? Post-being on hormones for a year? I'd bet it's very low for those that start in adulthood. And probably not much higher for teens. 

That being said there's not medical argument against just going by a different name or pronoun. That doesn't require medical intervention

It's a little disturbing tbh the social conservative view that parents can treat their children like chattel until they're 18. Yea of course kids shouldn't be getting surgery till they're adults, and that's already the case. But it's not like teens can't make responsible decisions either.

While there may not "Good" studies according to you, ( not sure what that means)on the regret portion of going through the trans experience the facts remain there are hundreds of recorded cases of people who have gone through the process and regret it...suggesting that this whole issue maybe just a fad of this generation, seeing how our education system has seen to place a high value on this type of education, and other exposures form other sources....

I really don't think many people care what you call yourself, jack or jill, what people take issue with is gender and all the rules it creates when none of it is based on science, or biology, but rather fantasy...

Not sure how much different liberal children are treated than Conservative children's, by law Parents are reasonable for their children until age of 18...for their well being both mentally and physically, to ensure they have access to medical care, they are feed, clothed... but also responsible for their actions. also to make life decisions that are in their best interest...

Quote

A review published in the Canadian Medical Association Journal recommends that, as part of the now widely practised gender affirming approach to care, hormone blockers may be given once puberty starts — which occurs, on average, at age 10-and-a-half for children born female, and 11-and-a-half in those born male.

This is the start of the whole transitioning process, note the ages it starts...these are not teenagers, but children...

Quote

 

Lawson is co-principal investigator of a study that followed 174 children who were under 16 when they were referred to one of 10 gender identity clinics in Canada. They had waited an average of 13 to 14 months for gender-affirming care.

Over two years of follow-up, 74 per cent cent were put on Lupron. Nearly two-thirds went on to gender-affirming hormones.

One third of youth assigned female at birth were referred for “top surgery,” some as young as 14.

 

What we know about puberty blockers for kids with gender dysphoria | National Post

[Nexii]

42 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Most cases of dysphoria pass by the time kids reach adulthood, so the likelihood that life changing treatment could be regretted later on is high.  Surgery and/or hormone therapy isn’t the only answer to dysphoria.  What’s more, an educational approach that makes it appear as though transitioning isn’t a big deal and that gender can be chosen without regard to biological gender is reckless and dangerous.  Keep it out of schools unless a student comes forward expressing dysphoria.  Kids should be heard and told that if they want the school to use pronouns, that parents should be part of the conversation unless there’s concern about parental abuse.  Let kids figure out their bodies and adjust to the natural hormonal changes that are hard enough without inserting a choose your gender instruction kit.  

It's actually much more complicated than this. Like sexuality, transgenderism exists on a spectrum from very mild to very extreme. If you're taking a population that is from mild to moderate, I'd wager the desistence rates are quite high. But I'd say that on the higher end of the scale, desistence is very rare. Because the level of transgenderism one has does not change all that much over one's life like sexual orientation. 

The first problem is, the medical system doesn't really differentiate that well between those levels of transgenderism. The questions asked are very dated and in the past mindset of researchers like Blanchard. Very focused on things like sexual orientation, IQ, social status, gendered interests and soforth that have little correlation to positive outcomes. They don't really measure levels of dysphoria or the will one has as far as they desire to transition. It's very much a piecemeal 'as you go' approach which I don't think is very good. 

Part of the reason for this strange approach is that in the past, there was very much a 'no True Scotsman' approach, you had to fit very narrow and strict criteria to transition. And so transsexuals learned that they had to meet or pretend to meet the stereotypes to transition (being attracted to males is the big one). Then the pendulum swung the other way, instead of being gatekeepers it became a more carte blanche approach.

Anyways, I don't think there's been many great studies on why those with high levels of transgenderism go through with it or not. Was it lack of family support, medical side effects from hormones, lack of money for optional surgeries, or did they no longer desire to transition because they felt differently? They never ask those sorts of questions in studies. I think because the left has too much hubris to admit they don't know, and the right would rather pretend we don't exist. So nothing really changes

[Zeitgeist]

49 minutes ago, Nexii said:

It's actually much more complicated than this. Like sexuality, transgenderism exists on a spectrum from very mild to very extreme. If you're taking a population that is from mild to moderate, I'd wager the desistence rates are quite high. But I'd say that on the higher end of the scale, desistence is very rare. Because the level of transgenderism one has does not change all that much over one's life like sexual orientation. 

The first problem is, the medical system doesn't really differentiate that well between those levels of transgenderism. The questions asked are very dated and in the past mindset of researchers like Blanchard. Very focused on things like sexual orientation, IQ, social status, gendered interests and soforth that have little correlation to positive outcomes. They don't really measure levels of dysphoria or the will one has as far as they desire to transition. It's very much a piecemeal 'as you go' approach which I don't think is very good. 

Part of the reason for this strange approach is that in the past, there was very much a 'no True Scotsman' approach, you had to fit very narrow and strict criteria to transition. And so transsexuals learned that they had to meet or pretend to meet the stereotypes to transition (being attracted to males is the big one). Then the pendulum swung the other way, instead of being gatekeepers it became a more carte blanche approach.

Anyways, I don't think there's been many great studies on why those with high levels of transgenderism go through with it or not. Was it lack of family support, medical side effects from hormones, lack of money for optional surgeries, or did they no longer desire to transition because they felt differently? They never ask those sorts of questions in studies. I think because the left has too much hubris to admit they don't know, and the right would rather pretend we don't exist. So nothing really changes

You make good points.  I’m sure much more study is necessary. People who genuinely feel like another gender should indeed be heard and supported.  The question is, what does support mean?  I don’t doubt that in highly exceptional cases it’s worth the risks to someone to make the decision to transition, but is a child equipped to make such a life-altering decision?  I’m not talking about obvious exceptions like hermaphrodites.  What is the age?  I don’t think it’s elementary school, and obviously parents will be involved in important medical decisions pertaining to their children, certainly under 16, perhaps 18.  I don’t think we know enough yet.  I don’t pretend to be an expert.  You clearly know more than me about the subject.  I do see important reasons for caution with kids.  

Edited August 30, 2023 by Zeitgeist

[Nexii]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

You make good points.  I’m sure much more study is necessary. People who genuinely feel like another gender should indeed be heard and supported.  The question is, what does support mean?  I don’t doubt that in highly exceptional cases it’s worth the risks to the someone to transition, but is a child equipped to make such a life-altering decision?  I’m not talking about obvious exceptions like hermaphrodites.  What is the age?  I don’t think it’s elementary school, and obviously parents will be involved in important medical decisions pertaining to their children, certainly under 16, perhaps 18.  I don’t think we know enough yet.  I don’t pretend to be an expert.  You clearly know more than me about the subject.  I do see important reasons for caution with kids.  

I would say 14 for hormones, 18 for surgery. Hormones are much more reversible. 

And yea, it's not realistic to successfully transition as a minor without parental support. It's far more than just going by another name and pronoun as the media tries to portray. That's not near enough for anyone highly transgender - you need everyday clothes, hairstyling, specialty clothes, hair removal, etc. The list goes on and on

[Nationalist]

20 hours ago, Nexii said:

I think the jury's still out on the 'many regret transitioning' narrative. The media cherrypicks. The truth is there haven't been good studies done on much of it because both sides would rather play political football than find out. Can anyone say the % definitively that detransition post-surgery? Post-being on hormones for a year? I'd bet it's very low for those that start in adulthood. And probably not much higher for teens. 

That being said there's not medical argument against just going by a different name or pronoun. That doesn't require medical intervention

It's a little disturbing tbh the social conservative view that parents can treat their children like chattel until they're 18. Yea of course kids shouldn't be getting surgery till they're adults, and that's already the case. But it's not like teens can't make responsible decisions either.

Obviously you forget what being a teen was like.

[CdnFox]

16 hours ago, Nexii said:

Homosexuality was considered a medical condition until the 1970s

 

It is  a medical condition.  Being pregnant is a medical condition.  Being alive is a medical condition. In the past they thought it might be a deviant trait but turns out it wasn't. But they never thought that it was a 'harmful' trait in and of itself, like you weren't going to die from it.

Quote

Same with trans, it's being declassified bit by bit by psychologists

Not really.  They changed it from "disorder" to "disphoria" and they've admitted outright it was for political reasons to reduce the 'stygma" - but it's not being "declassified'.  They're trying to say "it's not that you wish you were a girl that's the problem, its that wishing you were a girl causes you extreme distress". 

Unlike gays transgender people are generally not functional without treatment of some sort. Gays can go on to lead happy healthy normal lives without any help from anyone else, but transgender people need treatment or surgery or other medical type treatments in order to get by. And many struggle for the rest of their lives to have healthy happy living conditions.

 

There is absolutely no comparison. One doctor said if there's no pathology then how is there a condition? Of course there's a pathology.

[Nexii]

It was more a jab at psychology. Society looks to psychology as some sort of holy grail and it's not. 

I guess my point was that a more medical approach is needed, it's all too political and that stifles any progress. What treatments are provided and not are very political and not tied to any sort of research on how much they help dysphoria for the cost.

[CdnFox]

3 minutes ago, Nexii said:

It was more a jab at psychology. Society looks to psychology as some sort of holy grail and it's not. 

 

Tell me how you feel about that?   (snicker)

Quote

I guess my point was that a more medical approach is needed, it's all too political and that stifles any progress. What treatments are provided and not are very political and not tied to any sort of research on how much they help dysphoria for the cost.

Well fair point then and i guess i didn't pick up on where  you were going with that initially, sorry.  I mean you're right - the politics is getting in the way of the science so to speak.