Democracy

[Queenmandy85]

I read about this and that not being democratic. There are three forms of government in the world as far as I know off the top of my head. Most are republics, some are monarchies and the rest are dictatorships. There are no democracies that I can think of. Some republics claim to be democratic republics like North Korea, and the former East Germany, but there are no actual democracies. 

There are Republics like Russia, China, Mexico and the USA.

There are Monarchies like Norway, the Netherlands, Japan and Canada.

Then there are dictatorships like Myanmar, and Pinochet's Chili.

Can anyone point to an actual democracy?

[Moonbox]

First, I think you would need to define what you mean by these terms.  

Calling Japan or Canada monarchies is at best misleading, giving heavy weight to symbolic institutions and ignoring practical and functional reality.  

Similarly calling China or Russia republics would be (putting it kindly) a bit of a joke. 

 

[Queenmandy85]

22 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

First, I think you would need to define what you mean by these terms.  

Calling Japan or Canada monarchies is at best misleading, giving heavy weight to symbolic institutions and ignoring practical and functional reality.  

Similarly calling China or Russia republics would be (putting it kindly) a bit of a joke. 

 

That is how these countries self-describe themselves. Try telling an American partriot that the US is a democracy...,but put on a fire proof coverall first. 

President Trump and Reason10 insist the US no longer have free and fair elections. If that were true, that would put the USA and Russia on the same level. Who am I to dispute Reason10.

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Queenmandy85

[WestCanMan]

24 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Who am I to dispute Reason10.

Lol.

[herbie]

Good God are you like 9?

Everybody knows the words "Democratic Republic" means NOT.

And WTF with the 10th Century thinking that countries with Monarchs can't be considered democracies? The only thing Chucky can do that you can't is drive through Ottawa with a free police escort. The Emperor of Japan's been just as useless since 1945. You get a VOTE, they don't.

Edited December 22, 2022 by herbie

[WestCanMan]

26 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

President Trump and Reason10 insist the US no longer have free and fair elections. 

TBH free and fair elections are over in the US now that the FBI has taken a side. 

It was bad enough when the Dems got control of CNN, NBC, et al, but now the FBI is committing crimes on behalf of the Dems. It's straight outta Kremlin.

When the Gretchen Whitmer kidnapping plot was "unraveled" one month before the 2020 election it seemed like it was a legitimate plot by right-wing kooks to kidnap her and kill her, then we found out a year later that it was the FBI's own plot. The FBI also called the Hunter laptop info "Russian disinformation" at the exact same time, the NYPost was kicked off of Twitter and it tuns out everything they said was legit, and the FBI knew it because they had the laptops in their possession for 11 months at that point. That's two bogus stories from the FBI the last month before the 2020 election, and that's after their 3 years of lying (and committing actual crimes) about Russian collusion. 

The Jan 6th debacle is just another FBI hit piece. Everyone knew that trouble was imminent on that day. Trump prepared the National Guard to be there, it was Pelosi who kiboshed it. Then, after the Jan 6th mostly peaceful protest, when they didn't need the NG there anymore, she had 20,000 of them stand around for a month just for show. "OOH wook how bad the wiot was. AOC has PTSD."

The US is a gigantic shitshow right now. Its gov't is a total farce. Elections there are no more legitimate than in China or Russia. 

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

President Trump and Reason10 insist the US no longer have free and fair elections. If that were true, that would put the USA and Russia on the same level. Who am I to dispute Reason10.

Save yourself some time and just block him.  He's not a reasonable person, nor is the other guy nattering in this thread.  I can't read what he's saying, but I have no doubt it's 10-IQ.  

 

[PIK]

39 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

I find it entertaining to witness the passion of one, repeating the same non-sense all over again, probably thinking that by shouting or name calling can sway one to believe their theories, which in my opinion were deemed for a nuthouse since the beginning. 

Do you know what is interesting? Reasonx10 and people that come up with theories repeated by right wing radio hosts mostly in the US, they go to bed thinking that they have the truth, and the rest of us in society are blind. ?

As our former enviroment minister said, if you repeated and say it louder people will believe it. And this Gov are masters at it.

[Queenmandy85]

1 hour ago, herbie said:

Good God are you like 9?

Everybody knows the words "Democratic Republic" means NOT.

And WTF with the 10th Century thinking that countries with Monarchs can't be considered democracies? The only thing Chucky can do that you can't is drive through Ottawa with a free police escort. The Emperor of Japan's been just as useless since 1945. You get a VOTE, they don't.

Americans vote, but many say they are not a democracy. Japan, Canada and Norway vote, but we are all constitutional Monarchies. The King of Canada and the Emperor of Japan have the same powers and authority as the President of Germany. I just find it interesting that nations that self describe as republics are not democratic and many nations that self describe as constitutional monarchies have systems that can be described as democratic. Many of the nations with the highest quality of life are constitutional monarchies.

[Nationalist]

3 hours ago, Contrarian said:

I find it entertaining to witness the passion of one, repeating the same non-sense all over again, probably thinking that by shouting or name calling can sway one to believe their theories, which in my opinion were deemed for a nuthouse since the beginning. 

Do you know what is interesting? Reasonx10 and people that come up with theories repeated by right wing radio hosts mostly in the US, they go to bed thinking that they have the truth, and the rest of us in society are blind. ?

You assume "the rest of us" are all on the same page as you. That's interesting.

Just a thought Canada...but since we all know about the millions flooding the US border...might now be a good time to firm up our border and immigration laws?

[herbie]

2 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The King of Canada and the Emperor of Japan have the same powers and authority as the President of Germany.

That's perfect. If we ever get a republic, we should use that model. A President that's only ceremonial you say? That's perfect. Fly around shaking hands, sign things handed to them... perfect.

Far better than an illiterate lout that lies, cheats, cons, pronounces new law by sole authourity and has no sense of shame zooming about the world making the country look like the Mickey Mouse club President.

[WestCanMan]

3 hours ago, Contrarian said:

I find it entertaining to witness the passion of one, repeating the same non-sense all over again, probably thinking that by shouting or name calling can sway one to believe their theories, which in my opinion were deemed for a nuthouse since the beginning. 

I find it interesting to watch leftards follow their shrieking liars all the way from "The vaccines will work and they'll be safe" to "Children are getting myocarditis from the vax they don't need, covid deaths aren't even down by 1%, and 86% of covid deaths are among the multi-vaxed" while still bowing before the almighty vax. 'Cause of "all the experts", right?

Do you still feel like it's idjitotic to say that the virus might come from a lab?

Do you still think the Hunter laptop is Russian disinformation?

Do you still think there's no inflation? Or it's transitory?

Do you still believe that Joe didn't know Hunter was making millions with Burisma, and with the Chinese gov't? (Too late, he already admitted that he was lying)

Do you still feel like all of Trudeau's scandals were just minor misunderstandings and the media is holding him accountable?

Buddy, all of the things that you take for granted are total BS. You should be ashamed.

[Nefarious Banana]

Do you still think 'The Leafs' will ever win another Stanley Cup?

[Hodad]

9 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

I read about this and that not being democratic. There are three forms of government in the world as far as I know off the top of my head. Most are republics, some are monarchies and the rest are dictatorships. There are no democracies that I can think of. Some republics claim to be democratic republics like North Korea, and the former East Germany, but there are no actual democracies. 

There are Republics like Russia, China, Mexico and the USA.

There are Monarchies like Norway, the Netherlands, Japan and Canada.

Then there are dictatorships like Myanmar, and Pinochet's Chili.

Can anyone point to an actual democracy?

There are also oligarchies and theocracies out there. Maybe a few others if one is looking for nuance.

But democracy isn't limited to pure democracy. Any arrangements in which power is derived from the will of the voting public is democratic. This can be direct/pure, or inspect/representative. 

Most governments are blended in some way. You have elective monarchies and hereditary dictatorships, for example.

Of course the US is a democracy, but it is other things as well. The idea (rhetoric, really) that the US is not a democracy is picking up steam among the conservative chattering class because, frankly, they can no longer compete in a democracy. 

And, as Republican David Frum so eloquently put it, “If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy.”

And we have seen this borne out quite explicitly in the last two election cycles.

 

[Zeitgeist]

Democracy is somewhat a show for the masses, or rather, the unaccountable people in charge will only support democracy insofar as the manipulated public are likely to vote in favour of the cabal’s plans.  The unaccountable leaders can usually sway public opinion to their centrally planned causes anyway.

Canada isn’t run by elected leaders.  It’s run internationally and Trudeau is handed a script.  It’s basically whatever the UN and WHO says plus some NATO tough guy rhetoric.   That’s it.  Trudeau is told how many thousands of refugees and immigrants to accept, how much Canadians should be restricted and taxed to fight climate change and public health “crises”, that kind of thing.

If a president (or PM) starts to go too far outside the script, that leader will be removed from office in some way, either through smear campaigns or more radical measures. It’s quite clear now that the killing of Kennedy was an inside job involving the CIA and characters like Dulles.

There are no real political choices except what has already been decided about how we should live by unaccountable people.

The media won’t ask critical questions of the ruling Liberal Canadian government.  Canadian media are totally dependent on government funding and regulatory permission to survive.  Liberal media run the show and silence the opposition by throwing around accusations of extremism or conspiracy theory.

Smart independent journalists like Bari Weiss (whose political leanings would be considered left by traditional measures) are calling out Twitter and the New York Times for basically abandoning fair and balanced journalism. Yes the FBI appears to be taking sides and suppressing evidence to support current Democratic talking points. Twitter did the same thing by suppressing a true story in the New York Post.  Almost all Canadian mainstream media now supports the suppression of constitutional rights and free speech, essentially mimicking government talking points and reporting Liberal-funded polling data.

At least the US still has a political opposition.  I’m not sure we’ll see a real challenge to official state and international narratives in Canada, as the public are trained to fear political opposition and journalists are discouraged from asking hard questions.

The parameters are set in Canada: Canadians are to live in small homes and pay high costs for transportation and food due to extremely high immigration rates in the major cities, over-regulation, and the various taxes levied to “save the planet” and redistribute wealth.  We’re being pushed through costs and fear to stay home in order “to keep safe” and “save the planet.”  Freedoms and rights were removed to fight “crises”.  These can be removed further.  We know what is likely to happen to protesters and how such government crackdowns will be justified through media.

Try to speak up when you see injustice and protect your family, friends, and community.  I’m sure more “crises” are coming and I worry about the prescriptions now more than the diseases.  It’s even sadder if the diseases themselves are manufactured. State-funded gain of function viral research took place in Wuhan…

Edited December 23, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[Nationalist]

5 hours ago, Contrarian said:

Well, for starters, let me say that when the emergency act was involved against the outdoor party in Ottawa I was against it. It was an emotional act due to the fact that Trudeau got surrounded only by people that thought like him. To maintain a view as a PM in my opinion one needs to listen to opposite views too. 

but it seems Canadians supported this act regardless: 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-emergencies-act-poll-favour/

So if a majority of Canadians favoured the Emercency Act, they are even more in favour to push back against irrational theories which are ran by right wing populists in the US to make money in my opinion. 

so yes, until the People's Party (what kind of communist name is this for a traditionalist party?, I would fire their marketing boss) or any populistic creation gets elected in Canada -> "the rest of us"  are in charge. That is my manifesto. 

Most Canadians only know what the media told them...and the media spent the whole time printing a whitewash. Pictures of Nazi flags...BS about setting fires...covering for that insufferable coward while he hid at mommy's cottage.

As time passes, many inconvenient truths are surfacing. Like...the admission that the bug was made in the Wuhan labs...that Canadian coronors were instructed to do no autopsies on people who got jabbed and suddenly died...the jabs weaken the human immune system.

And also...as time passes...Pixie-Dust will continue to embarass Canada. 

So I'm not worried about a Globe and Mail poll.

[Nationalist]

7 hours ago, Contrarian said:

1. Yah well is a free country, you can go to a street corner and start the work to wake society.

2. Who knows? Possible, is the CCP.

3. I believe one Elon Musk released information and the American people will make their choices.

4. Of course there is inflation due to the pandemic, war & politicians are not saints.

5. Same as 3.

6. Trudeau has scandals yes, like every politician at the end of the mandate. The voters have spoken in Ontario and will speak federally too.

7. Ashamed? Why? I am in Canada, not a loyalist to a political party, i vote to penalise the political class mostly. Just because they are flawed (the establishment politicians) should I run to the alternative, Donnie Trump types of populists? ?

--> Ashamed should be people that put a foreign country in front of their country because of issues with 1 politician. Double the shame because is not even the official foreign power, is the parallel force in the U.S. which some of its seditious members are in prison due to January 6th.

--> I don't agree with @Moonboxapproach to just ignore conversation, people need to rant somewhere or else is fresh ground for the Russians to recruit from all you unhappy spoiled born here Westerners. ?

One has everything one needs here yet still stuck on last century rumours.

Every pandemic in history if one reads the journals at that time, the same type of suspicions were present. We did not have the forums back then to see all the theories, but there were writings of accusing forces using the Spanish flu as an example against "the people". Even the last century had their own "freedom fighters". I think they were more reasonable than Pat King though. 

Some of these rumours might hold a degree of truth (source of the virus), as the saying goes:

A broken clock is correct a few times a day too.

It's my understanding that you migrated from a Soviet country. So did my wife. The 2 of you are diametrically opposed in view points. What I find interesting is, she hears the propaganda in our news. She says she hears the same type of BS as the soviet news. You seem to inhale our news and march in tune with it.

I think, were the 2 of you to meet and talk...she'd be rather disappointed in you.

Just an observation...

Edited December 23, 2022 by Nationalist

[Nationalist]

8 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

? Oh what a scientific breakthrough, coming to the realisation which is that human beings are different and therefore programming can be different based on family, region of a country where you live in, education, who you come in contact to, who you listen to, who you don't listen to, travelling, exchanging ideas with other people that your programming tells you not to, etc, etc. 

You assumed because I ran away from Eastern Europe and maybe have somewhat of a similar culture than your wife I will think the same as your wife? The Human mind does not work like that. Or that if I quote the MSM that means I believe every single thing they wrote? No, is data filtering, propaganda exists everywhere, that does not mean I will ran away to the first irrational hole that a random guy from Youtube will lead me to just because the news have their own pro-government BIAS and flaws.

and I will tell you something else about group think which many in Eastern Europe suffer from. We just finished getting tortured by communist ideology and yet some populists from Eastern European are ready to embrace another ugly ideology, nationalism. 

You can give this quote to your wife: 

"Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."

- Plato

Well...you can be a sellout if you wish. I mean hey...at least you can wallow in our free society now.

But there are protests all over central Europe over the war and its effects.

Got any family over there freezing?

 

[Moonbox]

17 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

That is how these countries self-describe themselves. Try telling an American partriot that the US is a democracy...,but put on a fire proof coverall first. 

I could self-describe myself as a Dark Lord of the Sith, but that wouldn't mean anything.  

17 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

President Trump and Reason10 insist the US no longer have free and fair elections. If that were true, that would put the USA and Russia on the same level. Who am I to dispute Reason10.

Nobody can dispute him.  He's not a reasonable person and you're wasting your breath trying to engage with him.  

[I am Groot]

20 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

I read about this and that not being democratic. There are three forms of government in the world as far as I know off the top of my head. Most are republics, some are monarchies and the rest are dictatorships. There are no democracies that I can think of. Some republics claim to be democratic republics like North Korea, and the former East Germany, but there are no actual democracies. 

There are Republics like Russia, China, Mexico and the USA.

There are Monarchies like Norway, the Netherlands, Japan and Canada.

Then there are dictatorships like Myanmar, and Pinochet's Chili.

Can anyone point to an actual democracy?

Uhm Ireland? France? Finland?

[myata]

18 hours ago, Contrarian said:

Do you know what is interesting? Reasonx10 and people that come up with theories repeated by right wing radio hosts mostly in the US, they go to bed thinking that they have the truth, and the rest of us in society are blind.

Interestingly, that trait isn't at all limited to one political side. Just recall Covid, massive immigration attitudes by the left, yes we know that its right and the best for you just can't bother to explain and prove how.

Democracy is not a formal dance, gimmick to sanction and sanctify your every word and decision, anything that you do. Democracy is 1) real and functional responsibility of the active society, not the governments! and 2) always ongoing active dialogue within the society, about its essential problems and plans; and only after thant 3) functional and working forms, instruments, forums and institutions that organize these activites. So when the dialogue deteriorates and breaks, democracy will suffer. And then the society goes into deep hibernation, couldn't care about its own future and delegates all responsibility to the figureheads, it will diminish. We can see both trends very clearly. And it doesn't look like we are understanding them, let alone dealing with them.

[eyeball]

23 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Can anyone point to an actual democracy?

Probably not. It's a moving target that's subject to different qualities and quantities that's also dependant on the position and vector of whoever's pointing.

 

[eyeball]

23 hours ago, Moonbox said:

First, I think you would need to define what you mean by these terms.  

Calling Japan or Canada monarchies is at best misleading, giving heavy weight to symbolic institutions and ignoring practical and functional reality.  

Similarly calling China or Russia republics would be (putting it kindly) a bit of a joke. 

Maybe it's more like a feeling than a thing in and of itself and as easily defined by what it isn't than what it is.

That said if it feels like it's abused it probably is.

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by eyeball

[Moonbox]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

Maybe it's more like a feeling than a thing in and of itself and as easily defined by what it isn't than what it is.

That said if it feels like it's abused it probably is.

I think we’ve seen where feelings-based perceptions of democracy get us over the last 5-10 years, haven’t we?  ?

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

I think we’ve seen where feelings-based perceptions of democracy get us over the last 5-10 years, haven’t we?  ?

Well don't forget religious and ideologically based.  Just cycle thru the options till we find one we like. I wonder what science based will look like?