America under President Trump

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

Why are these companies recession proof? Corporate socialism? You bet. And yet many in the US government will scoff at the idea of any kind of socialism that would actually benefit the average American.

Well, the weapons are required to maintain deterrence of other Hegemons which are hostile, aggressive and building up their forces to overthrow the West,  the US military is actually very small and so is the budget by historical standards inflation adjusted, America could jump start the economy by Peace Through Strength, so I wouldn't call it corporate welfare per se, but yes, there are contractors which are receiving corporate welfare, the motivation is more that those contractors would be needed in the event of war, so it is a strategic imperative to keep them running in the meantime.   There is waste, but you don't have to buy the whole sector, you can pick and choose which are buys and which are not.

[Dougie93]

Bear in mind, everything I have, all my freedoms,  prosperity and comfortable lifestyle not at the coalface, are the products of war.

Moreover, you don't get peace by disarmament, disarmament invites wars, si vis pacem para bellum.

[Boges]

4 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Bear in mind, everything I have, all my freedoms,  prosperity and comfortable lifestyle not at the coalface, are the products of war.

Moreover, you don't get peace by disarmament, disarmament invites wars, si vis pacem para bellum.

Who's talking about disarmament.

But spending money, you don't have, on an ever expanding military when you're already more than twice the size of any military in the world is insane. 

China is not going to defeat the US with Military might, they'll do it by peaceful means. 

Anyone see the new documentary on Netflix backed by the Obama's? American Factory which shows the Chinese bossing around lazy American workers in a Auto Glass plant in Dayton, Ohio? Good times!

That's how China is winning, they don't do weekends. 

[Dougie93]

The source of American wealth and power is the flight to quality, there's plenty of money flowing to America in the form of it's own IOU's which it puts out into the markets by consuming 25% of the worlds resources.

In terms of the debt, not only is that sustainable for the global hegemon, but the bulk of that debt is actually held by Americans in America. 

In terms of the size of the US military,  it's actually undersized right now in relation to its mission set.

In terms of China being peaceful, that's obviously nonsense, the Chinese are in the throws of a  massive military build up and an aggressive confrontation with all in the China Seas.

Canadians and their blah, blah, blah Anti-Americanism are sad clowns, nobody cares what Canadians say anyways, Canada is the ultimate free rider and Communist sympathizing rogue state.

Funny thing is, Canada still flushes $20 billion a year or so down the tubes on a boutique military which couldn't fight its way out of wet paper bag now, no matter how tactically sound, there is no logistics tail, but according to people more currently informed than I, the Canadian military is also seriously degraded at the tactical level as well now.

Snowflake gender identity politics is the priority in the CF now, it's laughable, once you divest yourself from it emotionally.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

Incidentally, 431 Iroquois Squadron "The Snowbirds" just flew over my house in formation, must be the Kitchener Air Show.

When I was a boy, I used to be so proud of them, I loved the Snowbirds.

Now I just shake my head and look away, the whole RCAF will be dismantled, except for the Snowbirds.

Stop the pretense, take it out behind the woodshed and shoot it, return the money to the taxpayers, the CF is a fraud.

[GostHacked]

5 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Bear in mind, everything I have, all my freedoms,  prosperity and comfortable lifestyle not at the coalface, are the products of war.

Moreover, you don't get peace by disarmament, disarmament invites wars, si vis pacem para bellum.

You have justified Iran's desire for nuclear weapons as a deterrence against a US invasion. Good job.

[GostHacked]

4 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Incidentally, 431 Iroquois Squadron "The Snowbirds" just flew over my house in formation, must be the Kitchener Air Show.

When I was a boy, I used to be so proud of them, I loved the Snowbirds.

Now I just shake my head and look away, the whole RCAF will be dismantled, except for the Snowbirds.

Stop the pretense, take it out behind the woodshed and shoot it, return the money to the taxpayers, the CF is a fraud.

And now you have justified cuts to military spending. Again, good job.

[Dougie93]

36 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

You have justified Iran's desire for nuclear weapons as a deterrence against a US invasion. Good job.

I don't oppose Iran having nuclear weapons, although they would still be vulnerable to an American counterforce even if they had them.

[Dougie93]

35 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

And now you have justified cuts to military spending. Again, good job.

I don't oppose cutting wasteful military spending, and since the CF has become one big boondoggle, it's sinking good money after bad.

[Dougie93]

See, nuclear weapons are actually more trouble than they are worth for Iran.

Iran is three times the size of Iraq, so it's more than the  Americans can chew in terms of land invasion, that's an extremely low probability threat.

Whereas Iran would be made into a pariah state if they broke out, which would do further damage to the economy.

Which is the most likely way the regime in Tehran would be overthrown, so I think breaking out with nukes hurts Iran most of all.

[Dougie93]

Now in terms Canada, Canada is already a failed state, but the Canada's as independent Dominions and one Republic is viable, but they don't need full spectrum military's, so I would go to armed constabulary backed by citizens militia.

All Canada has ever done is fight other peoples wars for them, Canadians don't need to do that.

Canadians can contribute to Fortress North America much more effectively by defending their own hearths and homes from asymmetrical threats and just let the Americans take care of the big stuff, although this would require allowing the Americans to base forces here, not as occupiers but as partners.

Canada has lots of bases but no military to fill them, let the Americans use those bases, then the local economies get what they want, then just make a deal with the Americans so that any Canadian who wants to go see the Elephant can join the US military if they so desire, like the 33,000 Canadians who served in Vietnam, including my uncle out in BC who served with the First Team, 1st Cavalry Division (Airmobile)

Units like the RCR, Vandoos, PPCLI, you can keep them, but they would focus on defending Canada from terrorists and whatnot, and training the militia. The RCN would become a coast guard, the RCAF would be an service rather than an air force. 

That's basically what you have now anyways, might as well just formalize it and save the money by not trying to be something Canadians are not prepared to support.

Don't forget what one of the greatest Canadians in history, Marshall McLuhan said;

“World War III is a guerrilla information war with no division between military and civilian participation.”

So you don't need a full spectrum conventional military for that.

Marshall McLuhan is going to be up there in the pantheon, with Alan Turing, no doubt about it, the Prophet of Information Age

It's funny, when I was a boy, nobody really understood wtf he was talking about, and yet everything he prophetized has come to pass.

It;s entirely plausible that he will become the greatest Canadian of them all, I think he already is, but in the future everyone will recognize it.

He's Canada's Einstein.

Who are the soldiers of Marshall McLuhan's futuristic army?  That's actually you.

Here on the internet, in the Information Age, fighting the war, right now.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

The problem with your blueprint is that once we go down that path, there’s no going back.  We lost the airborne and marines and have an almost non-existent submarine fleet, where we once had aircraft carriers and the third largest navy and third or fourth largest air force at the end of WW2.  Stop the training, building, and repairs and you lose the capacity.  I agree that the militia is key.  

Handing even more authority to the Americans, not to mention reducing spending further, puts Canadian territory entirely in the hands of a foreign power.  You may not make a distinction between the two countries or think having some defensive independence matters, but it will matter more and more as Canada’s population grows larger than the UK and eventually Germany.  It’s also possible that as social upheavals and climate change make more populous countries like the US and China harder to manage, the power may shift, much as Greek city states succumbed to Rome and Persia succumbed to Alexander the Great.  It won’t be through war as much as economic viability, and the economically viable states will require defence.  

We’re returning to an age of city states, but the military capabilities required to protect those megacity regions can only be paid for through multi-jurisdictional funding, basically nation states and alliances of nation states.  Canada should more properly fund its military, whether on its own or as part of an alliance.  Canada funds NATO at median average level, but the US’s exhorbitant military spending skews averages.  US military spending could be cut in half without compromising its hegemony, yet her NATO partners are accused of being freeloaders by US hawks.  You want Canada to be more susceptible to such criticism by reducing military spending further?  No, we pay for and retain our own military, not just to pay our fair share to NATO but because, as we have learned, the US and certainly China can’t be relied upon in trade and matters or foreign policy.  Yes we rely on the US for defence now and I think we can trust that partnership, but I don’t know it.  

More importantly, I would like for Canada to have options as to whether and how to support international causes with combat or peacekeeping, not to simply disengage and pay a tax to a foreign power that can decide how to spend that money militarily, even when Canadian foreign policy is in disagreement.  Military is an extension of foreign policy, not simply a domestic police force.  We do much more than patrol the countryside on horseback in RCMP uniforms.  

Edited August 30, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[Yzermandius19]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

The problem with your blueprint is that once we go down that path, there’s no going back.  We lost the airborne and marines and have an almost non-existent submarine fleet, where we once had aircraft carriers and the third largest navy and third or fourth largest air force at the end of WW2.  Stop the training, building, and repairs and you lose the capacity.  I agree that the militia is key.  

Handing even more authority to the Americans, not to mention reducing spending further, puts Canadian territory entirely in the hands of a foreign power.  You may not make a distinction between the two countries or think having some defensive independence matters, but it will matter more and more as Canada’s population grows larger than the UK and eventually Germany.  It’s also possible that as social upheavals and climate change make more populous countries like the US and China harder to manage, the power may shift, much as Greek city states succumbed to Rome and Persia succumbed to Alexander the Great.  It won’t be through war as much as economic viability, and the economically viable states will require defence.  

We’re returning to an age of city states, but the military capabilities required to protect those megacity regions can only be paid for through multi-jurisdictional funding, basically nation states and alliances of nation states.  Canada should more properly fund its military, whether on its own or as part of an alliance.  Canada funds NATO at median average level, but the US’s exhorbitant military spending skews averages.  US military spending could be cut in half without compromising its hegemony, yet her NATO partners are accused of being freeloaders by US hawks.  You want Canada to be more susceptible to such criticism by reducing military spending further?  No, we pay for and retain our own military, not just to pay our fair share to NATO but because, as we have learned, the US and certainly China can’t be relied upon in trade and matters of foreign policy.  Yes we rely on the US for defence now and I think we can trust that partnership, but I don’t know it.  

More importantly, I would like for Canada to have options as to whether and how to support international causes with combat or peacekeeping, not to simply disengage and pay a tax to a foreign power that can decide how to spend that money militarily, even when Canadian foreign policy is in disagreement.  Military is an extension of foreign policy, not simply a domestic police force.  We do much more than patrol the countryside on horseback in RCMP uniforms.  

Wasting more money on the military will not make Canada any safer, so why throw more money away when doing so will not restore lost capacity and it's already a lost cause?

Canada is already in the hands of foreign power, wasting more money will not change that.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions and huffing the peacekeeping Humanitarian Pixie Dust to justify wasteful spending is not good for Canada.

Who cares if the other countries criticize us for not spending more on the military? Whoop dee doo.

Canada can't be relied upon in trade and foreign policy, America is simply calling us out on it, that doesn't mean they can't be relied on.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

It's not my blueprint, this is the Liberals blueprint, they are the ones dismantling the Confederation and military.

I am simply trying to stick the landing when their blueprint all comes crashing down.

Divide and Conquer and Disarmament by Stealth, mission accomplished, so where can you go from there?

The Liberals are fully Americanized, they're just the farm team for the Democrat Party, the Liberals have been dismantling Canada, the whole time.

In terms of having a full spectrum military independent of the Americans, that's gone, that's not the status quo.

The status quo is a bloated defence department which exists only to funnel money to entrenched interests, with a whole lotta empty bases with no troops in them.

In terms of American forces entering Canada, they already have permission, Canada signed that over to them in the CDSA.

Americans want to base their troops in America so they get the pork, basing forces in Canada so the local Canadians get the pork would be charity.

That's all Canadians care about vis a vis the military, they want the local base kept open, even though it's empty, and they want their defence pork.

Everything else was jettisoned long time ago, because that's how Canadians voted it to be, it's the will of the electorate.

It's not that there is waste in the DND budget, the whole budget is a waste, it all goes to overhead, headquarters staff and empty bases.

The DND pork barreling ate the military, there's no functioning military left in a full spectrum NATO sense, it's all pork no fight.

There's no military independence from the Americans, it's totally reliant on them for everything to do with fighting.

Stop the pretense, put it out of its misery, it's gone and it's not coming back.

All there is left; is pork, and its over two hundred billion dollars every decade being thrown down a sinkhole.

In terms of a Foreign Power, the Liberals are selling Canadians down the river to the Chinese Communists, who are hostiles.

Trump Derangement Syndrome and Canadian knee jerk Anti-Americanism notwithstanding,  America is not in fact a hostile Foreign Power.

The Americans see Canada as being quaint perhaps, unserious, unmartial, but they are not hostile towards Canadians.

If Canada continues down the path its on now, Anti-American, Pro-Chinese Communist, free rider which bites the hand that feeds it?

Then the Americans will come to see Canada as being hostile, they're not likely to invade, but they will freeze Canada out.

They will continue to harden and thicken the border and they will run Fortress North America without consulting Canada.

So Canada at this point, being delusional and operating by pretense, is actually the threat to Canadians, Canada as a danger to itself and others.

Canada as a Fifth Column for the Chinese Communists inviting Beijing inside the perimeter of Fortress North America?

That's no man's land, and it ends very badly for Canadians by default.

Trump is just a messenger.   The message from the Americans is; pick a side, Canada, is you in, or is you out?  And if you choose the Chinese, you are out.

This Liberal blueprint of being a feckless and capricious free rider, trying to play the Chinese and Americans off each other?

That ends disastrously for Canadians, Canadians are going to get crushed,  I'm just trying to save Ontario from being crushed by this insanity.

I can't save Confederation, that's already failed, Ontario needs to get out of this zombie legacy project and back inside the American perimeter.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

Canada is well inside NATO as a founding member and earned that spot through major contributions in WW2, including the virtual liberation of Holland and a big chunk of Belgium. It isn’t just the peacekeeping or combat support of the US post-911 where Canada has contributed, it’s the massive public expenditure of accepting some 60000 Syrian refugees to support these displaced people and add stability to the Middle East.  You can’t separate military policy from foreign policy or domestic policy.  They all express the character of a people, and the character of Canada’s support has been strong.  

Trying to reduce Canada’s contributions will only alienate allies and push Canada outside of that security perimeter that you constantly remind us the US dominates.  Maintaining and even enhancing our military not only supports our NATO allies and makes the world safer for democracy, it protects our sovereignty and ensures we can defend ourselves no matter what happens to NATO, the US or China.  The US is a close ally, but we need always to stand on our own two feet, no matter what one political party or group might want.  Canada demonstrated her strength in spades when it counted and will continue to do so. 

Dougie, you voted for the Liberals that you blame for weakening our military because you want to see it weakened.  You hate Canada, the country that provided you the training and remuneration you said was excellent, and you hate Confederation, unlike the vast majority of Canadians who seek to strengthen it. 

Edited August 30, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Dougie, you voted for the Liberals that you blame for weakening our military because you want to see it weakened.  You hate Canada and Confederation, unlike the vast majority of Canadians who seek to strengthen it. 

Canadians talk a big game but don't back it up, World War Two was a long time ago, everybody did their part in World War Two, you can't dine out on what Canada did seventy years ago and expect allies to take you seriously now, allies already know Canada is a free rider puppet of the Americans which is now trying to play both sides of the fence with the Chinese, you're not fooling anybody, everybody in the world knows that Canada's military is a farce, it's not a secret, I mean, Jane's Defence literally did a cover story about Canada's defence department being the worst run in the world, it's already a laughing stock, it's already broken beyond repair, I'm just dealing with reality rather than press releases from the GoC.

[GostHacked]

Amazing that Canada has so much pull in this thread regarding Trump and the USA.  For people that seem to hate Canada, you sure talk about it a lot.

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

Canadians talk a big game but don't back it up, World War Two was a long time ago, everybody did their part in World War Two, you can't dine out on what Canada did seventy years ago and expect allies to take you seriously now, allies already know Canada is a free rider puppet of the Americans which is now trying to play both sides of the fence with the Chinese, you're not fooling anybody, everybody in the world knows that Canada's military is a farce, it's not a secret, I mean, Jane's Defence literally did a cover story about Canada's defence department being the worst run in the world, it's already a laughing stock, it's already broken beyond repair, I'm just dealing with reality rather than press releases from the GoC.

NATO was drawn on to support one member, the US, when it was attacked, and Canada contributed generously.  We also revamped our border and other security, pouring billions into airport security and other measures mostly to keep the US happy.  The US chooses to overspend on its military industrial complex, which is so expensive with wages and benefit obligations, not to mention procurement obligations, that it’s almost impossible to cut military spending without upsetting people, especially the “entrenched interests”.  It’s another form of corporate welfare for sure.  So when certain US hawks complain about NATO countries’ military spending, it’s important to know the context.  I say that as a supporter of increasing military spending in Canada.  

Edited August 30, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

Canada's status as a NATO deadbeat has nothing to do with Trump's criticism...it has been an issue for decades now and Obama said the same things to Parliament when he was president.   The NATO benchmark (agreed to by members long before Trump) was 2% of GDP.    Canada is no longer a middle power, as it cannot project military force without the aid of allied resources and backup.

The U.S. should not continue to go broke spending for the defence of other nations who refuse to do so for themselves.   American blood and treasure is not without limits.

NATO was invented to keep the Americans in...Soviets/Russians out...and Germans down.

[Zeitgeist]

12 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Canada's status as a NATO deadbeat has nothing to do with Trump's criticism...it has been an issue for decades now and Obama said the same things to Parliament when he was president.   The NATO benchmark (agreed to by members long before Trump) was 2% of GDP.    Canada is no longer a middle power, as it cannot project military force without the aid of allied resources and backup.

The U.S. should not continue to go broke spending for the defence of other nations who refuse to do so for themselves.   American blood and treasure is not without limits.

NATO was invented to keep the Americans in...Soviets/Russians out...and Germans down.

The US will overspend on her military with or without NATO and the US isn’t too concerned about the threat levels to and public policy of other NATO countries.  I know that Canada spends a greater proportion of its GDP on foreign aid and has accepted far more refugees than the US on a per capita basis.  Don’t discount soft power as a means of creating world stability and improving foreign relations, as it has helped the US in the past.  Consider when Canada issued passports to the American hostages in Iran so they could escape.  The maple leaf has sometimes been a bridge between the US and other countries.  In terms of hard power, Canada contributes almost as much to NATO as Italy, a much larger country.  

It might serve the US to consider the impact on foreign relations of attempted Muslim bans or setting up multiple tariffs against allies.  There’s a price to be paid for belligerence in foreign relations.  Carrying a big stick only takes you so far.  You can invade but then you have to occupy.  Winning hearts and minds is the long and most important game. 

Edited August 30, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

The US will overspend on her military with or without NATO and the US isn’t too concerned about the threat levels and public policy of other NATO countries.  I know that Canada spends a greater proportion of its GDP on foreign aid and has accepted far more refugees than the US on a per capita basis.  Don’t discount soft power as a means of creating world stability and improving foreign relations, as it has helped the US in the past.  Consider when Canada issued passports to the American hostages in Iran so they could escape.  The maple leaf has sometimes been a bridge between the US and other countries.  In terms of hard power, Canada contributes almost as much to NATO as Italy, a much larger country. 

 

Those days are long gone, as Canada has also lost a lot of that so-called "soft power" and any reputation as an "honest broker".   The U.S. still provides far more foreign aid to other nations, and has accepted far more refugees and immigrants than Canada.   Don't discount that either.

It's not even the U.S. criticism that matters now....Canada's military has become less capable and is dysfunctional compared to just 20 years ago.   It is a concern that Canadians should address regardless of Trump.

 

Quote

It might serve the US to consider the impact on foreign relations of attempted Muslim bans or setting up tariffs against allies.  

 

Canada had/has tariffs as well...against allies, so that holds no water.   U.S. travel bans have been used as part of foreign policy for many administrations, and will continue along with sanctions, tariffs, deportations, extraditions, etc.

[Zeitgeist]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Those days are long gone, as Canada has also lost a lot of that so-called "soft power" and any reputation as an "honest broker".   The U.S. still provides far more foreign aid to other nations, and has accepted far more refugees and immigrants than Canada.   Don't discount that either.

It's not even the U.S. criticism that matters now....Canada's military has become less capable and is dysfunctional compared to just 20 years ago.   It is a concern that Canadians should address regardless of Trump.

 

 

Canada had/has tariffs as well...against allies, so that holds no water.   U.S. travel bans have been used as part of foreign policy for many administrations, and will continue along with sanctions, tariffs, deportations, extraditions, etc.

No, the US has brought belligerence in foreign relations to new heights under Trump.  Canada has its own problems, but the contributions and context speak for themselves.  

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

No, the US has brought belligerence in foreign relations to new heights under Trump.  Canada has its own problems, but the contributions and context speak for themselves.  

 

That's fine....it is not America's role to decide how Canada wants to do things....just don't bitch so much when an American president like Trump or Obama or Bush react to such decisions and actions.   Being an ally does not mean always agreeing on policy or trade.  If Canada wasn't so damn dependent on the U.S. economy and military, then it would be in a stronger position, "seat at the adult table", yada, yada, yada.   These issues are not new because of Trump.

Trump is a U.S. president...and he is not responsible for Canada.   Canada may benefit from actions and decisions made in U.S. interests, but certainly not required.

[Michael Hardner]

23 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

No, the US has brought belligerence in foreign relations to new heights under Trump.  Canada has its own problems, but the contributions and context speak for themselves.  

Furthermore - we are trying to keep up payments to a country that overpays and exports its force to assure policy goals.

And - are we sure that the US is going to step up when, say, Trump's buddy decides to assert itself in our Arctic waters ?  Given the fact that Donald wants to reward Putin for annexing parts of Ukraine, it seems not.

[Zeitgeist]

57 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Furthermore - we are trying to keep up payments to a country that overpays and exports its force to assure policy goals.

And - are we sure that the US is going to step up when, say, Trump's buddy decides to assert itself in our Arctic waters ?  Given the fact that Donald wants to reward Putin for annexing parts of Ukraine, it seems not.

Agreed, Trump is sketchy at best, quasi-Russian oligarch following Putin’s geopolitical roadmap of US disengagement from all potential Russian spheres of influence.  He is trying to broker a zero-sum winner takes all economic win against all foreign countries, not just China, which is why we have to be wary.  We always had to be wary, mind you.