Islamophobia in Canada

[Black Dog]

I really don't have any ideas there. That's what I'm asking for. I don't believe the premise that "well, we're Canada, that wouldn't happen here" will yield better results than Europe is seeing.

-k

Does Canada offer opportunities of immigrants to become citizens (Germany didn't do that until, IIRC, 2010)? Do we have strict laws banning public expressions of religious belief (as in France)? Does Canada have a complex and fraught history with the peoples of its former colonial possessions (uh, most of western Europe here)?

"We're Canada" means more than you think it does.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Black Dog

[eyeball]

I really don't have any ideas there. That's what I'm asking for. I don't believe the premise that "well, we're Canada, that wouldn't happen here" will yield better results than Europe is seeing.

-k

They'll very likely integrate the way other groups of immigrants do. Mostly through their kids.

It's like the immigrants in my family, the parents still struggle with English after 40 years and they rely on their kids to help them cope.

Edited November 24, 2015 by eyeball

[Scotty]

Quite simply, Canada doesn't have the European culture of xenophobia and outright racism. In short Canada can avoid Europe's problems because Europe's problems are, in part, a result of Europe being Europe.

Unfair. The nordic countries are a very open society and invited refugees from the middle east in and made them at home. Unfortunately, the clash of cultures between free living female nordic girls and harshly conservative Arab men has resulted in a huge increase in rapes across those countries.

[Scotty]

It's incredibly simplistic to think state policies and social attitudes don't play a role in how well a population integrates into mainstream society.

The UK embraced multiculturalism decades ago and did its best to show utmost respect for differing cultures. That hasn't stopped the race riots or the Muslim rape gangs preying on underage white girls.

[ReeferMadness]

I said it was a hypothetical. You didn't answer the question. If you don't feel any discomfort with Muslim attitudes, would you live in a community with a majority Muslim population? There are already neighborhoods in Canada with high concentrations of Muslims-- Edmonton's Millwoods district being one example-- so don't just respond that it wouldn't happen like that.

That's funny - I used to live in Millwoods - although it's been a while. I wouldn't have a problem going back.

You're the one worried about an American coming to Canada for a shooting rampage. I suspect they'd rather just stay home to do that.

I'm not worried about anyone going on a rampage - I just used that as an example of what could happen

And as I keep saying, I'm not talking about terrorists, I'm talking about the effects of bringing people with hateful attitudes to live among us.

-k

And is that fear of hateful attitudes based in ignorance or based in knowledge?

[poochy]

Does Canada offer opportunities of immigrants to become citizens (Germany didn't do that until, IIRC, 2010)? Do we have strict laws banning public expressions of religious belief (as in France)? Does Canada have a complex and fraught history with the peoples of its former colonial possessions (uh, most of western Europe here)?

"We're Canada" means more than you think it does.

Because we are different we have never had any terrorist attacks or plots on our soil that intended to do harm to Canadians.

[jacee]

These 25,000 refugees are not the only Muslims coming to Canada this year, and there will be more next year and every year after. I'm not talking about the refugees at all.

-k

Ya that's what they said about the Irish too.

During the famine.

Ship em back.

Don't let them land.

Quarantine them so they all get sick and die.

Those horrible hordes of Catholics.

And Ukrainians ... Etc.

You are just the latest wave of anti-refugee sentiment, Kimmy.

And BTW ... When have you experienced "hateful attitudes" from Muslims in Canada, Kimmy?

Are you smearing ordinary Muslims with comments that apply to the extremist 'jihadis'?

Isn't that the definition of racism?

Generalizing stereotyping smearing?

.

Edited November 24, 2015 by jacee

[Michael Hardner]

That hasn't stopped the race riots or the Muslim rape gangs preying on underage white girls.

Cite please.

[marcus]

I accept that Canadian Muslims aren't stone-age for the most part. I've worked with and attended school with Muslims and had no particular problems with them.

But we're not bringing in Canadian Muslims as refugees or immigrants. We're bringing in Middle Eastern Muslims, and no information has been presented to argue the point that the Middle East for the most part holds very regressive views.

Good try to backpedal but your bigotry is still at display here.

Where do you think the over 1 million Muslims in Canada came from?

Many are first, second or third generation Muslims who mostly came from the Middle East.

[Black Dog]

Because we are different we have never had any terrorist attacks or plots on our soil that intended to do harm to Canadians.

Objection: relevance?

[notca]

Boy O Boy! You gotta love the way some of you thrown around words like, 'xenophobia' and 'bigot'. Accusations like that against people you can't see face to face or have any real life knowledge of are low and uncalled for!

Socialists use that method of 'labelling' to make others who don't agree with their views shut up. When you have reasonable arguments for a particular way of thinking you don't need to stoop to name calling and character attacks. When you have an open mind you listen respectfully to differing opinions.

When did it become an societal necessity to agree with an opinion that you disagree with?

[WestCoastRunner]

Not every Canadian is reacting to the refugees with fear and hate:

• A few dozen representatives of B.C.’s Sikh community met with new Surrey Centre MP Randeep S. Sarai and offered to help thousands of Syrians by offering free tuition for 1,000 students at their private Khalsa Schools for one year and free meals and clothing to 2,000 refugees for three months. Among goals on their “wish list” is to find housing for 200 families, pick up refugees from the airport, provide free medical services and place up to 100 children in daycare.
• North Vancouver dentist, Cyrus Ali Akbari, said he wants to help the Syrian refugees with free dental work.
• A B.C. resort manager is floating the idea of having Syrian refugees housed at his property outside of Golden, B.C. He says they could sleep 70 people during the winter, feed them and provide transportation to and from nearby places like Golden or Calgary. Assaf says the resort could shut down for about five months.
• Local developers have offered some housing units. Westbank is donating 12 fully furnished units in a West End apartment building for four months and Thind Developments is giving seven units in an apartment on Kingsway.
• As of Monday morning, ISS of B.C. had received 3,239 calls from volunteers asking how to help, 726 prospective housing leads and 93 employment leads from companies and individuals willing to provide Syrians with their first jobs in Canada, Friesen said. Elementary school students from Surrey and Vancouver have even sent in a few hundred dollars in what he described as an “overwhelming interest in humanity.

• In response to the Syrian refugee crisis, VIU faculty, staff and students have come together to initiate the creation of the VIU International Refugee Scholarship Fund. With an initial contribution of $10,000 from the Vancouver Island University Faculty Association, and with all donations matched at 50 cents on the dollar by Vancouver Island University.

https://www.viu.ca/news/viu-announces-support-syrian-refugee-students#sthash.AIIZwCDU.dpuf

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/paris-attacks-syrian-resettlement-refugees-b-c-iss-bc-1.3321480

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/sikh-community-syrian-refugees-1.3330872

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/syrain-refugees-resort-manager-1.3313489

http://www.metronews.ca/news/vancouver/2015/11/23/metro-vancouver-volunteers-to-help-syrian-refugees.html

[poochy]

Not every Canadian is reacting to the refugees with fear and hate:

Neither are most of the people here, no matter how much you want to imagine it.

[dialamah]

-k

Hi Kimmy,

I just want to apologize to you for my comments about you being the definition of 'xenophobe' and a bigot because on reflection, I realized I was being unfair. The 'stone-age' mentality comment in particular really bugged me (still does, honestly), but that doesn't excuse my lack of moderation in my response.

I understand your concern about importing 'regressive' attitudes, but I think that's true of the majority of people who've emigrated to Canada. South Asians are not exactly a bastion of progressive, and Chinese are pretty conservative in many ways as well. There are always outliers regardless of whatever group, but I expect that for the most part the refugees will adjust to Canadian life, as have all the other ethnic groups from more conservative cultures - I suspect that would be most of them, as I can't think of many countries that are more progressive than is Canada.

[jacee]

I'm not criticizing a race or a skin-tone.

I'm not even criticizing a religion.

I'm criticizing stone-age attitudes that are held by significant numbers of people within the group where we're bringing immigrants and refugees from.

-k

Kimmy you are talking about ISIS, possibly Wahabi and Salafi sects of Islam.

If you don't know the difference between such extremist sects and mainstream Muslims, then you are generalizing from a few to the many, in ignorance and racism.

You are talking about the extremism that Syrian refugees are running away from.

I thought you were smarter. ?

.

Edited November 24, 2015 by jacee

[jacee]

I accept that Canadian Muslims aren't stone-age for the most part. I've worked with and attended school with Muslims and had no particular problems with them.

But we're not bringing in Canadian Muslims as refugees or immigrants. We're bringing in Middle Eastern Muslims, and no information has been presented to argue the point that the Middle East for the most part holds very regressive views.

No information has been presented to support your very broad brush contention.

And if you bring in 25000 refugees and 25000 immigrants from a region where regressive views are the norm, you're inevitably going to bring in a large number of people with regressive views.

Again, you've supplied no evidence to support that racist assumption.

I completely understand why so many immigrants seek out communities of people with similar backgrounds. I would certainly do the same if I found myself in a country where I didn't speak the language or understand the local customs. It's completely natural. (And that's the reason I don't anticipate seeing many of the refugees here. Small Muslim community here. They'll probably opt for places with larger Muslim communities.)

But given that this completely natural, rational, reasonable tendency of newcomers to seek out people like themselves... doesn't that make the formation of these ethnic enclaves inevitable? We've had our "Chinatown" and "Little Italy" and similar neighborhoods for as long as we've had people coming to Canada from non-British backgrounds.

And with this being a pretty much inevitable phenomenon, doesn't that make ethnic enclaves like Richmond BC or Williamsburg New York an inevitability? And doesn't that pose a serious obstacle to the goal of integration?

-k

No.

I love those areas of our cities, the colours and spicey smells, markets and shops.

And almost all of those kids go to our public schools and are fully integrated.I guarantee that if you stood among them and started singing one of those bus songs, they would all join in.

Is it the fact that they don't look Caucasian that makes you think they are not "integrated"?

Wtf?!

You are being absolutely ridiculous.

.

Edited November 24, 2015 by jacee

[jacee]

Ok, I'll answer that.

This is a baseless, gutless, spineless accusation that's nothing more than attempt to smear me with an accusation of racism. I think less of you as a person for having written it.

Does that answer your question?

-k

That's not an answer. Those are personal attacks that suggest you have no viable answer.

.

[Guest]

That's not an answer. Those are personal attacks that suggest you have no viable answer.

.

It's somewhat hypocritical of you, as one of quite a few on here who resort to personal attacks when they have no viable criticism of another poster's opinion, to accuse someone else of that.

Let's be very clear. If anyone had an argument that effectively countered the argument of another, they would not resort to calling them bigots, racists, or xenophobes. It's a cop out. It just means that the other's opinion is correct, but you don't like it pointed out.

Edited November 24, 2015 by bcsapper

[Hudson Jones]

This is a baseless, gutless, spineless accusation that's nothing more than attempt to smear me with an accusation of racism. I think less of you as a person for having written it.

You smeared yourself when you wrote:

I guess I'm Islamophobic.

Aside from the superficial, like opening a shawarma stand in your town, what do Middle Eastern immigrants have to offer? Gay bashing, gang rape, hate speech, synagogue arson, stone-age attitudes... what's the upside?

[Hal 9000]

All Kimmy has done is tried to look at both sides and raise some important questions and all you people have done is shown her just how fast the left can turn on somebody - congratulations, you prove what we've always said about liberals.

I disagree with Kimmy sometimes too (as I'm sure she does me), but her thoughts are always welcome.

[kimmy]

Hi Kimmy,

I just want to apologize to you for my comments about you being the definition of 'xenophobe' and a bigot because on reflection, I realized I was being unfair. The 'stone-age' mentality comment in particular really bugged me (still does, honestly), but that doesn't excuse my lack of moderation in my response.

Thanks, I appreciate that. I agree that "stone age" was a bit much, and I will strive to do better.

I understand your concern about importing 'regressive' attitudes, but I think that's true of the majority of people who've emigrated to Canada. South Asians are not exactly a bastion of progressive, and Chinese are pretty conservative in many ways as well. There are always outliers regardless of whatever group, but I expect that for the most part the refugees will adjust to Canadian life, as have all the other ethnic groups from more conservative cultures - I suspect that would be most of them, as I can't think of many countries that are more progressive than is Canada.

My concern is the possibility of seeing, eventually, communities that are sufficiently large and sufficiently homogeneous that people no longer have any need or desire to join the larger society. I earlier mentioned the Chinese community in Richmond BC as something that might already be at that stage in Canada. There seem to be Muslim areas in the UK that have reached this stage. There are people asking "since everybody in our town is Muslim anyway, why can't we have our own laws and our own schools?"

That seems to be the path Europe is on, and I don't want that to happen in Canada.

-k

[kimmy]

Kimmy you are talking about ISIS, possibly Wahabi and Salafi sects of Islam.

If you don't know the difference between such extremist sects and mainstream Muslims, then you are generalizing from a few to the many, in ignorance and racism.

You are talking about the extremism that Syrian refugees are running away from.

I thought you were smarter.

.

Iran has the death penalty for gay people, and Iran isn't Wahhabi or Salafi. They're Shia. Go do some reading about the status of women under Iran's Islamic-based laws.

Egypt is Sunni, but it's full of barbaric attitudes regarding women too.

The whole region has similar problems. You can't just blame it on ISIS or Wahhabis.

-k

[kimmy]

That's not an answer. Those are personal attacks that suggest you have no viable answer.

.

My answer is that nowhere in this thread have I talked about skin color. It was completely false and utterly baseless. If you disagree, search through the thread and prove otherwise. I challenge you. I dare you. I double dog dare you.

It was a bottom-of-the-barrel accusation from a bottom-of-the-barrel member. And from here on I'm going to not bother responding to dog-crap like that.

-k

[notca]

It was a bottom-of-the-barrel accusation from a bottom-of-the-barrel member. And from here on I'm going to not bother responding to dog-crap like that.

-k

That is a wise decision, kimmy!

It is evident that some posters are here with the sole purpose of being insulting. Cowards who couldn't get away with it in real life without someone beating on them. When you ignore them you deprive them of the pleasure the take in getting a reaction.

Your views are as welcome and interesting as anyone else's and you have every right to express your opinions. That's what public forums are for!

I find your thoughts are not 'knee-jerk' but very carefully considered.

[cybercoma]

Thanks, I appreciate that. I agree that "stone age" was a bit much, and I will strive to do better.

My concern is the possibility of seeing, eventually, communities that are sufficiently large and sufficiently homogeneous that people no longer have any need or desire to join the larger society. I earlier mentioned the Chinese community in Richmond BC as something that might already be at that stage in Canada. There seem to be Muslim areas in the UK that have reached this stage. There are people asking "since everybody in our town is Muslim anyway, why can't we have our own laws and our own schools?"

That seems to be the path Europe is on, and I don't want that to happen in Canada.

-k

You mean places like SE Michigan where Muslims and Jews come together for a day of charity every year on Dec 25? Dearborn must just be the biggest cesspool of radical intolerance and terrorist sympathies. Except it's not. Because Muslim folks who leave that bullshit behind them want to keep it there, not import it to their new homes.