Islamophobia in Canada

[Black Dog]

So... first off, I ask those here who are cheerleading for more Muslims to be brought to Canada: what positives do you see that balance out these potential negatives?

And secondly, what would you do here in Canada to prevent the negative effects Europe is seeing from materializing here in Canada?

-k

Quite simply, Canada doesn't have the European culture of xenophobia and outright racism. In short Canada can avoid Europe's problems because Europe's problems are, in part, a result of Europe being Europe.

[Hal 9000]

It's not Europe being Europe, its a matter of numbers. A handful of people will assimilate into a new culture just fine, once they get big enough numbers, they start their own communities and revert back into their old familiar cultures. That's what we see with places like chinatown (in many cities) and in the US with hispanics. It's a perfectly natural course of events.

[bush_cheney2004]

.... That's what we see with places like chinatown (in many cities) and in the US with hispanics. It's a perfectly natural course of events.

Hispanic culture was always "old and familiar" in several parts of the United States.

[Hal 9000]

Hispanic culture was always "old and familiar" in several parts of the United States.

But, would you agree that its taking over certain parts of the US? Or at least having a very strong influence in politics and law?

[bush_cheney2004]

But, would you agree that its taking over certain parts of the US? Or at least having a very strong influence in politics and law?

I would agree that Hispanic influence has grown commensurate with demographic changes in the United States, but it is not a "take over" of anything. The U.S. has a Spanish/Hispanic history that goes back to its beginning.

There are millions of Muslims in the U.S. as well....not a "take over".

New York City has more mosques than in all of Canada....maybe that's why there is Islamophobia ?

Edited November 23, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

[WestCoastRunner]

But, would you agree that its taking over certain parts of the US? Or at least having a very strong influence in politics and law?

Taking over? Hardly.

But despite these non-white gains, whites account for 83% of the new Congress but just 62% of the population. This gap has widened over time. In 1981, 94% of Congress was white compared with about 80% of the U.S. population.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/01/12/114th-congress-is-most-diverse-ever/

[notca]

A lot of the objection to what I have been saying has been accusations that I'm not appreciating that there are many different views in the Muslim community, or anecdotal examples of Muslims who are friendly and progressive. And that completely misses the point.

I realize that not all Muslims hold the same views. I realize that even in extremely regressive Muslim countries, there are people who disagree with the laws. I'm aware that there are lots of individuals who don't fit the stereotype.

But we're not talking about individual cases, we're talking about the aggregate effect of tens of thousands of individuals. And in Europe, where they're much further along the path of bringing in Muslims that we are, we've seen that the aggregate effect of immigration from Muslim countries has brought with it some negative effects.

In Europe their experience has been that increased immigration of Muslims has brought a rise in anti-Jewish incidents.

In Europe their experience has been that increased immigration of Muslims has brought a rise in sexual violence against women.

In Europe their experience has been that a significant portion of Muslim immigrants simply won't integrate with society. A lot of people feel that that integration has been a complete failure, and this "alienation" of these Muslims who can't or won't integrate is often blamed for Muslim "anger" in these countries.

So... first off, I ask those here who are cheerleading for more Muslims to be brought to Canada: what positives do you see that balance out these potential negatives?

And secondly, what would you do here in Canada to prevent the negative effects Europe is seeing from materializing here in Canada?

-k

Okay I will give you my answer.

What we could do here in Canada to prevent the negative effects Europe is seeing is learn a lesson from it and not do it.

I don't see any positives from bringing more Muslims to Canada. I don't think they should have been brought to Canada in such number at all.

Islam is not compatible with Western societies. Our Constitutions allow freedoms that Islam forbids (speech, religion, equality) and has laws against what Islam demands,( male domination, polygamy, forced marriages etc.)

I don't know of a country that has received large numbers of Muslims that has not experienced clashes between Muslim culture/religious beliefs and the laws of the land. Muslims do not get along with each other let alone with non-Muslims. There are those who would deny that but they are ignoring the reports of Muslim vs. other culture conflicts. They see only what they want to see.

[Black Dog]

It's not Europe being Europe, its a matter of numbers. A handful of people will assimilate into a new culture just fine, once they get big enough numbers, they start their own communities and revert back into their old familiar cultures. That's what we see with places like chinatown (in many cities) and in the US with hispanics. It's a perfectly natural course of events.

It's incredibly simplistic to think state policies and social attitudes don't play a role in how well a population integrates into mainstream society.

[Hal 9000]

It's incredibly simplistic to think state policies and social attitudes don't play a role in how well a population integrates into mainstream society.

So, the Europeans should be catering to the muslims? I'm sure the muslims be would ecstatic if we integrated into their cultures.

[Black Dog]

So, the Europeans should be catering to the muslims? I'm sure the muslims be would ecstatic if we integrated into their cultures.

If that's honestly the very best interpretation you could come up with, you're too ignorant for me to bother having a discussion with. Life's too short.

[eyeball]

So, you are advocating a culling of us conservatives how exactly?

Public education...a process that's already well underway. We're leaving more about the true character of conservatism everyday you people keep talking. Please keep it up.

[eyeball]

So, this thread seems to have gotten seriously off track. Trying to find examples to create a false equivalence between Islam and Christianity is a typical deflection tactic.

I'd like to again ask the questions from my earlier post which nobody made an effort to address.

-k

I address it everyone I draw an equivalency between western conservatism and Islamic conservative.

The real problem here is conservativism, something you appear to have acknowledged.

[Boges]

I address it everyone I draw an equivalency between western conservatism and Islamic conservative.

The real problem here is conservativism, something you appear to have acknowledged.

So now who's painting with a broad brush?

If you're trying to troll, then bravo, point made. If not I'd argue your position is more extreme that most people who hold moderate conservative views.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Boges

[drummindiver]

Public education...a process that's already well underway. We're leaving more about the true character of conservatism everyday you people keep talking. Please keep it up.

Really?

"You people"?

Lol. I don't even know what you are talking about in your post, yet your bigotry shines bright.

Clearly something for new Canadians to aspire to. (Just in case I'm not clear,^_SARCASM)

[Guest]

Quite simply, Canada doesn't have the European culture of xenophobia and outright racism. In short Canada can avoid Europe's problems because Europe's problems are, in part, a result of Europe being Europe.

You're just a few years behind, is all.

[ReeferMadness]

That's true...it is a very modern and politically correct notion to say otherwise.

Oh, you want in on this now? Maybe you can answer some of the questions that Bryan has danced around.

Do you acknowledge that for centuries (prior to the enlightenment), there have been atrocities committed by European Christians that have been just as brutal as what ISIS is doing right now?

Can you find the spot in the bible where Jesus says homosexuality is wrong?

Do you agree with Bryan that the old testament is now just a historical reference since Jesus replaced it with a kinder, gentler version of Christianity? If so, how do you explain the support of many Christians for the death penalty? It was the old testament that said "an eye for an eye". Jesus said "Turn the other cheek".

Edited November 23, 2015 by ReeferMadness

[ReeferMadness]

So, this thread seems to have gotten seriously off track. Trying to find examples to create a false equivalence between Islam and Christianity is a typical deflection tactic.

-k

Comparing Islam to Christianity is useful in determining the reasonableness of some of the generalizations that have been made about Islam. Such as:

1. Islam is evil because of some of the statements that are found in the Quran. I posted a link earlier that said that a religious scholar analyzed the bible and found that overall it was more violent than the Quran. So, the reasonable conclusion would be that that living your life according to a literal interpretation of an ancient text transcribed from memory might not be the bet idea.

2. Islam is inherently evil because its followers are doing so many bad things and using Islam to justify it. Historically, an astounding number of horrific things have been done in the name of the Christian deity. The reasonable conclusion is that reasonable people will do reasonable things and interpret their core beliefs in a reasonable way.

[ReeferMadness]

So... first off, I ask those here who are cheerleading for more Muslims to be brought to Canada: what positives do you see that balance out these potential negatives?

And secondly, what would you do here in Canada to prevent the negative effects Europe is seeing from materializing here in Canada?

-k

So, the only thing I'm cheerleading for is intelligence and reason to win out over bigotry and bias. So far, the race seems pretty tight.

I'd just like to remind everyone of a few facts:

1. The majority of the Paris attackers (including the ringleader) were French and Belgian nationals, not Syrians. They don't even need a visa to come to Canada today. Is someone going to suggest that Europeans are barred from entry to Canada? Or Muslim Europeans?
2. There are already over 1 million Muslims in Canada. If Muslims are inherently dangerous, then it's a bit late.
3. Mass shootings are a common occurrence in a large, heavily armed country that actually borders us. I haven't heard anyone suggest that we prevent "those people" from coming into Canada.

So, maybe it's time to climb out from under the bed, let the people who are in charge of screening refugees do their job and stop living in fear. You should be much more afraid of sugar in your diet than Muslims because it's far, far more likely to kill you.

[eyeball]

So now who's painting with a broad brush?

If you're trying to troll, then bravo, point made. If not I'd argue your position is more extreme that most people who hold moderate conservative views.

I'm simply reiterating the broad brush observation, by conservative posters, that Islamic people are a lot more conservative than most Canadians.

I'm not happy with the idea of letting more conservative people into the country, conservatism and intolerance go together like peas and carrots. This forum is living proof.

So what exactly is wrong with bringing in refugees and educating them about the pitfalls of conservatism?

Edited November 23, 2015 by eyeball

[Guest]

I'm simply reiterating the broad brush observation, by conservative posters, that Islamic people are a lot more conservative than most Canadians.

I'm not happy with the idea of letting more conservative people into the country, conservatism and intolerance go together like peas and carrots. This forum is living proof.

So what exactly is wrong with bringing in refugees and educating them about the pitfalls of conservatism?

You mean the pitfalls of Islamic conservatism? As opposed to lowering corporate taxes and such.

[WestCoastRunner]

So what exactly is wrong with bringing in refugees and educating them about the pitfalls of conservatism?

We do the same now with Canadian men who beat their wives. Part of their sentencing is attending educational courses. And these men are born here!

[notca]

Oh, you want in on this now? Maybe you can answer some of the questions that Bryan has danced around.

Do you acknowledge that for centuries (prior to the enlightenment), there have been atrocities committed by European Christians that have been just as brutal as what ISIS is doing right now?

Can you find the spot in the bible where Jesus says homosexuality is wrong?

Do you agree with Bryan that the old testament is now just a historical reference since Jesus replaced it with a kinder, gentler version of Christianity? If so, how do you explain the support of many Christians for the death penalty? It was the old testament that said "an eye for an eye". Jesus said "Turn the other cheek".

Your comparison of the violent passages of the Bible to Islam is not valid.

The violence committed by Christians who focused on the OT has long disappeared into the past. Islam has clung to its ancient tenets unchanged unto the present day.

Sure there are still Christian crazies who question the law and strive to inflict their wrong-headed beliefs on society but they do not kill to uphold their beliefs. The laws of the land forbid such violent actions. Muslims who are born and raised in Islamic countries will naturally be enured to laws they have always lived with.

Some people seem to like bring up the violence of the past as justification for the violence of the presence carried out by Muslims. There is just no comparison. Other religions have evolved to a point of civilized reason. Islam has not.

[eyeball]

You mean the pitfalls of Islamic conservatism? As opposed to lowering corporate taxes and such.

No, just conservatism.

[eyeball]

We do the same now with Canadian men who beat their wives. Part of their sentencing is attending educational courses. And these men are born here!

Then why couldn't the Conservatives have just pointed the men that were said to be forcing the niqabs on women towards these courses instead of tripping all over themselves trying to avoid the real issue?

Because the issue was never niqabs, women, men or misogyny. It's because they were all Muslim.

[notca]

There is much more to the anti-refugee sentiment than Islamophobia.

It is the belief that our government should be looking after it's own people FIRST, before burdening its taxpayers with the tremendous expense and inconvenience of solving the problems of outsiders.

There are Aboriginals in this country who are living in deplorable, unsanitary conditions in tumble down shacks with no clean water, limited and unaffordable food supplies, lack of educational and health facilities and no hope of any betterment in the future.

There are multitudes of homeless, jobless and mentally ill who need help desperately.

There are low income families who are struggling to survive, desperately in need of affordable housing, going deeper into debt by the month with no hope of a better future due to constantly rising costs.

These unfortunate Canadians will suffer even more when the influx of refugees descends on us.

With the world economy in a slump, our economy could plummet at any time in spite of the Liberal's rosy outlook. Already people are losing jobs due to the sagging oil industry. As the deficit increases there will be more demand on the already burdened taxpayers to cough up more of their earnings.

It couldn't be a worse time to take in hordes of strangers who cannot speak the language, are in need of services that are already overcrowded and for whom there will be very few job opportunities.

Yes, Canadians have good reason to question and resent this refugee plan. These naysaying Canadian are not heartless monsters without sympathy for the plight of the refugees. They are just people who believe that we should care for our own needy first and that ultimately we will plunge ourselves into the same dire straits as the refugees who are victims of other countries whose governments acted irresponsibly.