Islamophobia in Canada

[WestCoastRunner]

I'm not criticizing a race or a skin-tone.

I'm not even criticizing a religion.

I'm criticizing stone-age attitudes that are held by significant numbers of people within the group where we're bringing immigrants and refugees from.

-k

Nice play on words.

[ReeferMadness]

To respond to your numbered points:

1. I am not talking specifically about Syrian refugees, and I am not talking about terrorism. I'm talking about the aggregate effects of bringing in large numbers of people with views that are in many instances in opposition to Canadian values.

2. Right now Muslims only make up 3% of the population. Do you think Canada would be a better place if they made up a larger percentage of the population? Hypothetically 10% or 30%? Hypothetically, if there were a neighborhood in Canada where 50% of the people were Muslims, would move there?

3. When our gun-loving neighbors to the south come to Canada for a visit, they leave their guns behind. If only we could similarly ask people to leave hateful attitudes behind, I'd be less concerned about bringing in immigrants and refugees from countries where gay people are put to death and women are treated like possessions.

-k

1. I don't know what you mean by "large numbers". The proposal at the moment is 25,000 people which would represent less than 1 tenth of 1% of the overall Canadian population. So the percentage of Muslims would rise from 3% to 3.1% (or something like that).

2. Is anyone suggesting raising the Muslim population to 30%? Or even 10%?

3. Really?? Are you REALLY suggesting that Americans kill people because they have guns and Muslims kill people because they have hateful attitudes?

[kimmy]

Quite simply, Canada doesn't have the European culture of xenophobia and outright racism. In short Canada can avoid Europe's problems because Europe's problems are, in part, a result of Europe being Europe.

I've read people claiming that Europe's failure to integrate Muslims is because of European racism.

If Canada is just inherently smarter or better than Europe... then, as someone asked earlier, why do we also have these heavy concentrations of ethnicities in certain areas? For example, as I understand it, a Chinese person could come to Richmond BC and live their whole life without having to speak a word of English or interact with anybody who isn't also ethnically Chinese.

Don't you think that maybe a place like that is just the inevitable result of newcomers feeling safe and comfortable amongst people of shared background, as opposed to any particular racism on the part of Canadians?

And don't you think that a place like that would likely result in some number of residents who just don't bother to integrate into the larger society?

-k

[bush_cheney2004]

....3. When our gun-loving neighbors to the south come to Canada for a visit, they leave their guns behind.

Except when they are responding to advertising for hunting in Canada. They bring their guns and money.

http://www.canadawelcomesyou.net/firearms.html

[Hal 9000]

I try to be non partisan as much as I can on this site because I do believe it moves conversations forward at a much more productive pace. Although I do find that it is very difficult to do.

I am in agreement that we should be leaving political ideologies out of the conversation with refugees and instead focus on human values with the emphasis on equality for everyone regardless of their gender, religion, sexual identity etc

You know WCR, you're constantly jumping on your soap box about racism, gender equality, gay rights, rape culture, police brutality and kids rights among other things - then you'll simply jump on the old "Islam is a religion of peace" bullshit. Islam (even moderate Islam) is full on against every ideal that you espouse - every single one. Yet you jump all over other posters for recognizing the hypocrisy and questioning the effect of bringing that philosophy into our communities.

I know some muslim men (i don't know any muslim women, because...well, you're just not allowed to know them), and I guarantee you, you would not be impressed.

[kimmy]

1. I don't know what you mean by "large numbers". The proposal at the moment is 25,000 people which would represent less than 1 tenth of 1% of the overall Canadian population. So the percentage of Muslims would rise from 3% to 3.1% (or something like that).

And as I keep mentioning, these 25000 refugees aren't the only Muslims to Canada this year, and there are more Muslims coming in the future as well.

2. Is anyone suggesting raising the Muslim population to 30%? Or even 10%?

I said it was a hypothetical. You didn't answer the question. If you don't feel any discomfort with Muslim attitudes, would you live in a community with a majority Muslim population? There are already neighborhoods in Canada with high concentrations of Muslims-- Edmonton's Millwoods district being one example-- so don't just respond that it wouldn't happen like that.

3. Really?? Are you REALLY suggesting that Americans kill people because they have guns and Muslims kill people because they have hateful attitudes?

You're the one worried about an American coming to Canada for a shooting rampage. I suspect they'd rather just stay home to do that.

And as I keep saying, I'm not talking about terrorists, I'm talking about the effects of bringing people with hateful attitudes to live among us.

-k

[Hal 9000]

I've read people claiming that Europe's failure to integrate Muslims is because of European racism.

If Canada is just inherently smarter or better than Europe... then, as someone asked earlier, why do we also have these heavy concentrations of ethnicities in certain areas? For example, as I understand it, a Chinese person could come to Richmond BC and live their whole life without having to speak a word of English or interact with anybody who isn't also ethnically Chinese.

Don't you think that maybe a place like that is just the inevitable result of newcomers feeling safe and comfortable amongst people of shared background, as opposed to any particular racism on the part of Canadians?

And don't you think that a place like that would likely result in some number of residents who just don't bother to integrate into the larger society?

-k

The only difference between Europe and Canada, is that the european countries are farther down the road than us.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Hal 9000

[Smallc]

The only difference between Europe and Canada, is that the european countries are farther down the road than us.

There are many differences between Europe and Canada. Canada was formed differently. Canada has a much better model of integration through multicultural coexistence. Canada has had immigrants and xenophobes for its entire existence.

[dialamah]

I'm criticizing stone-age attitudes that are held by significant numbers of people within the group where we're bringing immigrants and refugees from.

-k

You are making assumptions based on ignorance, and you refuse to even consider getting to know the people about whom you think so poorly. You won't accept any information that demonstrate the majority of Muslims do not hold 'stone-age' attitudes. And then you try to claim that you aren't racist or a bigot. Give it up.

For example, as I understand it, a Chinese person could come to Richmond BC and live their whole life without having to speak a word of English or interact with anybody who isn't also ethnically Chinese. Don't you think that maybe a place like that is just the inevitable result of newcomers feeling safe and comfortable amongst people of shared background, as opposed to any particular racism on the part of Canadians?

So says the white person who doesn't expect any Syrians to be showing up in her town, and she likes it that way. But lucky you, you've got a whole damn country to "feel safe and comfortable amongst people of shared background", you don't have to learn any new language, or contemplate being exposed to anything 'different'. You are the very definition of a xenophobe.

I'm talking about the effects of bringing people with hateful attitudes to live among us.

Were it up to me, I'd be happy to eliminate hateful attitudes from among us. I'd not be starting with Muslims though.

[dialamah]

I said it was a hypothetical. You didn't answer the question. If you don't feel any discomfort with Muslim attitudes, would you live in a community with a majority Muslim population? There are already neighborhoods in Canada with high concentrations of Muslims-- Edmonton's Millwoods district being one example-- so don't just respond that it wouldn't happen like that.

-k

Yup, I would. The Muslims I've met have been the warmest and friendliest people, most willing to help, who really value personal relationships. Or maybe it's just that they're from the Middle East; one person I met was the same, but he was a Christian from the ME.

[Hal 9000]

There are many differences between Europe and Canada. Canada was formed differently. Canada has a much better model of integration through multicultural coexistence. Canada has had immigrants and xenophobes for its entire existence.

Yeah, just go to Vancouver/Richmond and then over to Surrey. The french Canadians barely want anything to do with english Canada.

[Smallc]

Yeah, just go to Vancouver/Richmond and then over to Surrey.

I've been more than once thanks. You think you have a point, but you're in fact proving exactly what I'm saying. Canada is successful because Canada is malleable. Canadian culture is the sum of the people in Canada. That's much different than most of Europe which has a rigid cultural model not well adapted to minority integration.

[eyeball]

I really don't think we should be indoctrinating refugees with the views of any political party. Let them make their own choices at the next election.

Please note the distinction between conservatives and Conservatives.

Broad brushing others with sweeping generalizations is one thing but broad brushing yourself takes a special kind of broad brusher.

[Guest]

Please note the distinction between conservatives and Conservatives.

Broad brushing others with sweeping generalizations is one thing but broad brushing yourself takes a special kind of broad brusher.

I'm having some trouble understanding you. Is it you or me that's doing the broad brushing? I think it's you, but I almost get the impression you don't think that.

Edited November 24, 2015 by bcsapper

[eyeball]

I'm having some trouble understanding you. Is it you or me that's doing the broad brushing. I think it's you, but I almost get the impression you don't think that.

I definitely think you're having some trouble.

[Guest]

You are making assumptions based on ignorance, and you refuse to even consider getting to know the people about whom you think so poorly. You won't accept any information that demonstrate the majority of Muslims do not hold 'stone-age' attitudes. And then you try to claim that you aren't racist or a bigot. Give it up.

Oh for Pete's sake! Every poster on here that doesn't agree with Islamic excesses and isn't afraid to say so has got that tattooed on their foreheads. And still the ignoramuses insist that if you don't like those excesses, you're a bigot. There must be a billion Muslim bigots on the planet, according to you. Because they don't like them either.

[Guest]

I definitely think you're having some trouble.

But this one wasn't deliberate. I got off the boat in 1984, so that can't be it.

Edited November 24, 2015 by bcsapper

[eyeball]

Well then I'm afraid I really don't know what your problem is.

[dialamah]

Oh for Pete's sake! Every poster on here that doesn't agree with Islamic excesses and isn't afraid to say so has got that tattooed on their foreheads. And still the ignoramuses insist that if you don't like those excesses, you're a bigot. There must be a billion Muslim bigots on the planet, according to you. Because according to you, they don't like them either.

She's not disagreeing with "Islamic Excesses". Instead, she's assuming and saying that most Muslims have 'stone-age' mentalities and hateful attitudes. By that measure, so do most Christians because most Christians believe about the same as do 'moderate' Muslims.

[Hal 9000]

She's not disagreeing with "Islamic Excesses". Instead, she's assuming and saying that most Muslims have 'stone-age' mentalities and hateful attitudes. By that measure, so do most Christians because most Christians believe about the same as do 'moderate' Muslims.

How can you be taken seriously saying stuff like this?

[Guest]

She's not disagreeing with "Islamic Excesses". Instead, she's assuming and saying that most Muslims have 'stone-age' mentalities and hateful attitudes. By that measure, so do most Christians because most Christians believe about the same as do 'moderate' Muslims.

Okay, Kimmy doesn't need me to fight her battles. I went back a few posts and I coudn't find the word "most". Maybe I didn't go back far enough.

Do you think that every Muslim immigrant to this country, that was exposed to the fundamental religious nastiness that is sometimes seen in some of the countries where Muslim immigrants might typically emigrate from, leaves it all behind when he lands? (I'm sorry about that sentence, but you guys just absolutely insist) If not, where do you think the number lies? Would you say that "some" Muslims have 'stone-age' mentalities and hateful attitudes? A small minority? You wouldn't go so far as to insist the number is zero, would you?

If not, it's only a matter of degree, and what you are actually willing to be seen to admit. And if you're not a bigot, then where is the line crossed? Not by being brave enough to state facts, surely? It must just be in the numbers then. There must be some magic number of Muslims below which it's okay to mention their 'stone-age' mentalities and hateful attitudes, and above which it is not.

Most of us just don't know the number.

Edited November 24, 2015 by bcsapper

[Bonam]

This is a baseless, gutless, spineless accusation that's nothing more than attempt to smear me with an accusation of racism. I think less of you as a person for having written it.

That's true in pretty much 99% of cases that someone accuses someone else of being racist on this board.

[Black Dog]

I've read people claiming that Europe's failure to integrate Muslims is because of European racism.

That's a gross oversimplification. That plays a role, but it's quite simply a matter of European policies with regard to immigrants has been incoherent for decades (look into Germany's "guest workers" as a prime example).

If Canada is just inherently smarter or better than Europe... then, as someone asked earlier, why do we also have these heavy concentrations of ethnicities in certain areas? For example, as I understand it, a Chinese person could come to Richmond BC and live their whole life without having to speak a word of English or interact with anybody who isn't also ethnically Chinese.

Because that's always been the way of immigrants. Except modern immigrants from China (one of Canada's largest sources of immigrants btw) aren't coming here to drive cabs or run corner stores; they have the means to form their own wealthy pockets in the suburbs. But that's not the issue you're talking about, is it?

Don't you think that maybe a place like that is just the inevitable result of newcomers feeling safe and comfortable amongst people of shared background, as opposed to any particular racism on the part of Canadians?

Sure and its ever been thus. The question is how we manage to integrate them into our population. Do you have any ideas there?

And don't you think that a place like that would likely result in some number of residents who just don't bother to integrate into the larger society?

-k

So I guess we...just don't accept immigrants, then?

Edited November 24, 2015 by Black Dog

[kimmy]

You are making assumptions based on ignorance, and you refuse to even consider getting to know the people about whom you think so poorly. You won't accept any information that demonstrate the majority of Muslims do not hold 'stone-age' attitudes. And then you try to claim that you aren't racist or a bigot. Give it up.

I accept that Canadian Muslims aren't stone-age for the most part. I've worked with and attended school with Muslims and had no particular problems with them.

But we're not bringing in Canadian Muslims as refugees or immigrants. We're bringing in Middle Eastern Muslims, and no information has been presented to argue the point that the Middle East for the most part holds very regressive views. And if you bring in 25000 refugees and 25000 immigrants from a region where regressive views are the norm, you're inevitably going to bring in a large number of people with regressive views.

So says the white person who doesn't expect any Syrians to be showing up in her town, and she likes it that way. But lucky you, you've got a whole damn country to "feel safe and comfortable amongst people of shared background", you don't have to learn any new language, or contemplate being exposed to anything 'different'. You are the very definition of a xenophobe.

I completely understand why so many immigrants seek out communities of people with similar backgrounds. I would certainly do the same if I found myself in a country where I didn't speak the language or understand the local customs. It's completely natural. (And that's the reason I don't anticipate seeing many of the refugees here. Small Muslim community here. They'll probably opt for places with larger Muslim communities.)

But given that this completely natural, rational, reasonable tendency of newcomers to seek out people like themselves... doesn't that make the formation of these ethnic enclaves inevitable? We've had our "Chinatown" and "Little Italy" and similar neighborhoods for as long as we've had people coming to Canada from non-British backgrounds.

And with this being a pretty much inevitable phenomenon, doesn't that make ethnic enclaves like Richmond BC or Williamsburg New York an inevitability? And doesn't that pose a serious obstacle to the goal of integration?

-k

[kimmy]

Sure and its ever been thus. The question is how we manage to integrate them into our population. Do you have any ideas there?

I really don't have any ideas there. That's what I'm asking for. I don't believe the premise that "well, we're Canada, that wouldn't happen here" will yield better results than Europe is seeing.

-k