This week in Islam

[WestCoastRunner]

3 minutes ago, Goddess said:

 They are frequently shouted down and threatened by their own Muslim community 

Sure they are but that is part of reform.

[Goddess]

Just now, WestCoastRunner said:

Sure they are but that is part of reform.

Sometimes.  In this case, certainly.

[WestCoastRunner]

Just now, Goddess said:

Sometimes.  In this case, certainly.

Most times.  

[Goddess]

Just now, WestCoastRunner said:

Most times.  

I'm just thinking of the Civil Rights movement.  I don't think there was a large contingent of blacks fighting against the blacks who were trying to gain equality.  That reform was more successful and quicker because they all agreed things need to change - men and women both.  With the caveat that yes, I'm aware there are still problems with race in the US, especially certain areas.

[WestCoastRunner]

An interesting Q&A in this post  QA Talk Explores Role of Islamic Feminism

Here are a couple of excerpts:

Quote

CC: What does Islamic feminism say about Muslim women wearing the hijab?

SH: So Islamic feminism — I am very careful not to speak of it as a monolithic term. We have multiple forms of Islamic feminism, just as we have multiple forms of feminism in general. Western, mainstream feminism has different waves, different forms of feminism. So Islamic feminism is like that as well. We have Muslim feminists, Muslim women who identify as feminists, Muslim men who identify as feminists who come in different shapes and sizes and who come from different belief systems. The one thing we have in common is that they’re Muslim, but they interpret Islam or the Quran very, very differently across the world. … I live in Austin, Texas, and here, Muslim women have a completely different approach to practicing Islam. So there’s no one way to answer that question. There’s no one rule that Islamic feminism practices on the hijab. But one thing that I would say that probably is standard at this point is there’s no oppression or there’s no compulsion in Islam from God. And so, when a woman does wear the hijab, she has to be respected for that choice — assuming it’s a choice. And if a woman is wearing it out of pressure, there are broader, larger factors, social/political factors that go into why women make the kind of choices we make. So if I meet a Muslim woman who identifies as a feminist who wears the hijab, I’m going to accept that. … Also, the more important thing is that Muslim feminists are actually not obsessed with the hijab. And this is a very Western thing, the obsession with the hijab. … So Muslim feminists challenge that by focusing on much more integral, much more serious, much more pressing concerns that Muslim women are facing. And the hijab is really not a concern for the most part.

Quote

CC: What are misconceptions about Islamic feminism?

SH: One of the most important things they get wrong is they imagine one way that Islam can let Muslim women practice Islam. … We don’t practice Islam the same way. We don’t have the same experiences because Islam or religions aren’t the ones that create experiences for the most part. What we experience is a product of a lot of other things — our class, our gender, our sexual orientation, the neighborhood, the kinds of politics. Those kinds of things play a much more important role than Islam. Islam doesn’t explain anything. Islam as a religion — Islam as a practice — doesn’t really explain much on why women are treated in a particular way. It’s politics for the most part. So I would say something the one thing people get wrong is they assume … that there is such a thing as what Islam says about women or what Muslim women think or what Muslim women experience. There’s just no such thing. It’s so much more complicated than that.

 

[Goddess]

3 minutes ago, WestCoastRunner said:

Also, the more important thing is that Muslim feminists are actually not obsessed with the hijab. And this is a very Western thing, the obsession with the hijab.

Good link.  I had been reading quite a bit lately on Muslim feminists, too, so I appreciate your links and research as well.

The only part I slightly disagree with is that obsession with the hijab is not only a "very Western thing".  I feel that Muslims themselves, especially in Western countries, have also contributed to making the hijab the ultimate symbol of Islam.  Unfortunately, they have chosen a symbol with a history of values about women's inferiority, a history of abuse of power, a history of violence against women.  

[dialamah]

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

Good link.  I had been reading quite a bit lately on Muslim feminists, too, so I appreciate your links and research as well.

The only part I slightly disagree with is that obsession with the hijab is not only a "very Western thing".  I feel that Muslims themselves, especially in Western countries, have also contributed to making the hijab the ultimate symbol of Islam.  Unfortunately, they have chosen a symbol with a history of values about women's inferiority, a history of abuse of power, a history of violence against women.  

The conversation seems to go like this:

An actual Muslim woman or Muslim 'apologist':  Muslim women often choose to wear the hijab as a symbol of their faith, although it is also true that some women are coerced. Coercion is a problem not limited to hijab wearing or even Islam.  Domestic abuse needs to be addressed in Muslim communities along with all other communities.

Anti-Muslim response:  As far as I am concerned, the hijab is a symbol of female oppression, and if a woman chooses to wear it, she is at the very least promoting female oppression.  As a matter of fact she is probably a fanatic who wants to kill gays/apostates/impose Sharia law (per Argus).  It doesn't really matter what Muslim women themselves say, it is clear that the hijab is a huge problem for women (and Canadian culture, per Argus again) and so I am going to object to it.  And if you think letting women wear the hijab is ok, you are also supporting misogyny and female oppression.

 

[DogOnPorch]

Jehovah's Witness arrested for ramming into and crushing 6 French soldiers in Paris with his car.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-attacks-france-idUSKBN1AP0OS

 

JK...it was a peaceful Muslim enriching the locals with the usual Islamic diversity. 

 

Meanwhile, model and hottie, Chloe Ayling, claims that she was kidnapped and held ransom to be auctioned-off to Muslim men in the Middle East. What an Islamophobe! She should be arrested! How dare she sully the great faith of Islam!!! Rant...froth...carry-on.

 https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/model-was-kidnapped-to-order-by-gang-for-middle-eastern-men-a3605461.html

Edited August 10, 2017 by DogOnPorch

[Goddess]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

The conversation seems to go like this:

An actual Muslim woman or Muslim 'apologist':  Muslim women often choose to wear the hijab as a symbol of their faith, although it is also true that some women are coerced. Coercion is a problem not limited to hijab wearing or even Islam.  Domestic abuse needs to be addressed in Muslim communities along with all other communities.

Anti-Muslim response:  As far as I am concerned, the hijab is a symbol of female oppression, and if a woman chooses to wear it, she is at the very least promoting female oppression.  As a matter of fact she is probably a fanatic who wants to kill gays/apostates/impose Sharia law (per Argus).  It doesn't really matter what Muslim women themselves say, it is clear that the hijab is a huge problem for women (and Canadian culture, per Argus again) and so I am going to object to it.  And if you think letting women wear the hijab is ok, you are also supporting misogyny and female oppression.

 

That may be how you perceive the conversations, because you are extremely emotionally attached to islam, but very little of what you said there explains how I feel about it.

[dialamah]

4 hours ago, Goddess said:

Watching a group of about 30 random Muslims attack an Israeli girl and describe the horrific ways they wanted to see Jews die, was an eye-opener for me.

Was it an eye opener for you when the right-wing attacked Iqrah Khalid, sending her 1000s of emails threatening death, torture and rape?  Is it eye-opening for you when you hear about Muslim women being physically and verbally attacked for wearing a hijab?  How about when someone shoots up a mosque?   Or are your eyes only opened when its Muslims carrying out some horrific action?

[Goddess]

3 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Was it an eye opener for you when the right-wing attacked Iqrah Khalid, sending her 1000s of emails threatening death, torture and rape?  Is it eye-opening for you when you hear about Muslim women being physically and verbally attacked for wearing a hijab?  How about when someone shoots up a mosque?   Or are your eyes only opened when its Muslims carrying out some horrific action?

Find anywhere on here where I said I agreed with any of those things.  There's your answer.

[dialamah]

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

That may be how you perceive the conversations, because you are extremely emotionally attached to islam, but very little of what you said there explains how I feel about it.

I am not attached to Islam.  I am attached to my sister and my friends who are Muslim.  So when people claim that Muslims are generally awful people, I am inclined to tell them they don't know what they are talking about.

 

 

 

[Goddess]

5 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I am not attached to Islam.  I am attached to my sister and my friends who are Muslim.  So when people claim that Muslims are generally awful people, I am inclined to tell them they don't know what they are talking about.

You are very attached to Islam, by extension.  Any criticism of it that comes from anyone but you is perceived as a criticism of your sister.  When people are discussing the problems in Islam, we are all aware that not ALL muslims think that way.  We have all said that many times. Over and over and over.  It's you who refuse to see that.

People should be able to  discuss the problems in Islam without you directing how that conversation takes place and censoring what everyone says.  You constantly jump to the conclusion that any criticism of Islam is directed toward individuals, in particular your sister.

I'm sure your sister and your freinds are wonderful people.  

What you need to understand is that not ALL muslims are like your sister.

What do you want me to do?  You deny there is hatred of Jews in mainstream Islam, yet there are myriads of examples of it - all over the world, on a daily basis.  You keep saying that it is only a tiny, tiny, barely perceptable minority who hate Jews and we should all ignore it and not talk about it.  It is not.  Do they ALL hate Jews?  No.  Do they ALL love and tolerate Jews?  You know the answer, you just don't like when people point it out.

I'm sorry I don't think Islam is the greatest thing ever.  I'm sorry I don't believe Islam is "the religion of peace".  I'm sorry I don't believe it honors or respects women.  You are free to "Rah! Rah, Islam!!" for it all you want.  Go for it.

[dialamah]

2 hours ago, Goddess said:

You are very attached to Islam, by extension.  Any criticism of it that comes from anyone but you is perceived as a criticism of your sister.  When people are discussing the problems in Islam, we are all aware that not ALL muslims think that way.  We have all said that many times. Over and over and over.  It's you who refuse to see that.

People should be able to  discuss the problems in Islam without you directing how that conversation takes place and censoring what everyone says.  You constantly jump to the conclusion that any criticism of Islam is directed toward individuals, in particular your sister.

I'm sure your sister and your freinds are wonderful people.  

What you need to understand is that not ALL muslims are like your sister.

What do you want me to do?  You deny there is hatred of Jews in mainstream Islam, yet there are myriads of examples of it - all over the world, on a daily basis.  You keep saying that it is only a tiny, tiny, barely perceptable minority who hate Jews and we should all ignore it and not talk about it.  It is not.  Do they ALL hate Jews?  No.  Do they ALL love and tolerate Jews?  You know the answer, you just don't like when people point it out.

I'm sorry I don't think Islam is the greatest thing ever.  I'm sorry I don't believe Islam is "the religion of peace".  I'm sorry I don't believe it honors or respects women.  You are free to "Rah! Rah, Islam!!" for it all you want.  Go for it.

So much hyperbolic nonsense.  

[blackbird]

10 hours ago, hot enough said:

You know full well why you are doing this, Goddess. As does every other thinking individual. None of your kind had the least bit of concern during the many long decades, continuing to today, when the US was and still is supporting brutal dictatorships, and Canada to , by supporting the US. 

You are all major hypocrites and other equally immoral, abhorrent nouns that are not allowed to be expressed. 

If there were any truth in your outlandish claims, we would have heard about it long ago in the media, but after a lifetime of hearing nothing, we must conclude you are some kind of hysterical extremist who has spent a lot of time reading conspiracy theorists or anti west rabble.

Edited August 10, 2017 by blackbird

[hot enough]

37 minutes ago, blackbird said:

If there were any truth in your outlandish claims, we would have heard about it long ago in the media, but after a lifetime of hearing nothing, we must conclude you are some kind of hysterical extremist who has spent a lot of time reading conspiracy theorists or anti west rabble.

That should tell you just how brainwashed you are, blackbird, that really ought to tell you just what a closed societies western nations are. The media is an absolute joke. 

The UNGA has been condemning the US for a 1/4 century, vote 198-2 [US & Israel] for its terrorism against Cuba and you have never heard that. 

The USA is the only country ever to be convicted of international terrorism, Nicaragua vs the USA. And you have never heard of that either. You think you live in a free and open democratic society - a humongous joke. 

Quote

THE SECRET WARS OF THE CIA:

part I

THE INNER WORKINGS OF THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL AND THE CIA'S COVERT ACTIONS IN ANGOLA, CENTRAL AMERICA AND VIETNAM

by John Stockwell

a lecture given in October, 1987

John Stockwell is the highest-ranking CIA official ever to leave the agency and go public. He ran a CIA intelligence-gathering post in Vietnam, was the task-force commander of the CIA's secret war in Angola in 1975 and 1976, and was awarded the Medal of Merit before he resigned. Stockwell's book In Search of Enemies, published by W.W. Norton 1978, is an international best-seller. 

*****

"I did 13 years in the CIA altogether. I sat on a subcommittee of the NSC, so I was like a chief of staff, with the GS-18s (like 3-star generals) Henry Kissinger, Bill Colby (the CIA director), the GS-18s and the CIA, making the important decisions and my job was to put it all together and make it happen and run it, an interesting place from which to watch a covert action being done...

I testified for days before the Congress, giving them chapter and verse, date and detail, proving specific lies. They were asking if we had to do with S. Africa, that was fighting in the country. In fact we were coordinating this operation so closely that our airplanes, full of arms from the states, would meet their airplanes in Kinshasa and they would take our arms into Angola to distribute to our forces for us....

What I found with all of this study is that the subject, the problem, if you will, for the world, for the U.S. is much, much, much graver, astronomically graver, than just Angola and Vietnam. I found that the Senate Church committee has reported, in their study of covert actions, that the CIA ran several thousand covert actions since 1961, and that the heyday of covert action was before 1961; that we have run several hundred covert actions a year, and the CIA has been in business for a total of 37 years.

What we're going to talk about tonight is the United States national security syndrome. We're going to talk about how and why the U.S. manipulates the press. We're going to talk about how and why the U.S. is pouring money into El Salvador, and preparing to invade Nicaragua; how all of this concerns us so directly. I'm going to try to explain to you the other side of terrorism; that is, the other side of what Secretary of State Shultz talks about. In doing this, we'll talk about the Korean war, the Vietnam war, and the Central American war.

Everything I'm going to talk to you about is represented, one way or another, already in the public records. You can dig it all out for yourselves, without coming to hear me if you so chose. Books, based on information gotten out of the CIA under the freedom of information act, testimony before the Congress, hearings before the Senate Church committee, research by scholars, witness of people throughout the world who have been to these target areas that we'll be talking about. I want to emphasize that my own background is profoundly conservative. We come from South Texas, East Texas....

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Stockwell/StockwellCIA87_1.html

 

[hot enough]

4 hours ago, Goddess said:

You are very attached to Islam, by extension.  Any criticism of it that comes from anyone but you is perceived as a criticism of your sister.  When people are discussing the problems in Islam, we are all aware that not ALL muslims think that way.  We have all said that many times. Over and over and over.  It's you who refuse to see that.

People should be able to  discuss the problems in Islam without you directing how that conversation takes place and censoring what everyone says.  You constantly jump to the conclusion that any criticism of Islam is directed toward individuals, in particular your sister.

 

What you need to understand is that not ALL muslims are like your sister.

What do you want me to do?  You deny there is hatred of Jews in mainstream Islam, yet there are myriads of examples of it - all over the world, on a daily basis.  You keep saying that it is only a tiny, tiny, barely perceptable minority who hate Jews and we should all ignore it and not talk about it.  It is not.  Do they ALL hate Jews?  No.  Do they ALL love and tolerate Jews?  You know the answer, you just don't like when people point it out.

I'm sorry I don't think Islam is the greatest thing ever.  I'm sorry I don't believe Islam is "the religion of peace".  I'm sorry I don't believe it honors or respects women.  You are free to "Rah! Rah, Islam!!" for it all you want.  Go for it.

What you need to understand, Goddess, is that all this Muslim bashing is just that, Muslim bashing. It is borne of 911 and the mostly US propaganda that has flowed from that. Here you are, the Muslim bashers pretending that you do this because you care, which is arrant nonsense. 

There has not been one of you who has spoken out about the slaughter of millions of Muslims by the US/UK, BUT, you make this huge pretense that you care, that you want to make things better for them, you want to bring them the blessings of the WEST.

What blessings might those be, the slaughter of a million under five Iraqi children in a planned US genocide, the amoral 1990s sanctions for things that the US had provided to Iraq, the illegal invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan all based on the huge US/UK lies about the phony attacks on 911. 

You all are typical of, likely the same people who were bashing the Pakistanis, the Syrians, the [fill in the blank with your undesirables of the day]

You all know that you are simply advancing rank propaganda because not a one of you will address the war crimes, the terrorism being perpetrated against all these peoples. 

You sneak in the Jewish people, thinking it will bolster your nonsense. There have been attacks from your group against many peoples, Syrians, Somalians, ... . There are many women all across Canada being abused. We have heard zilch from you folks about missing and murdered First Nations women. 

None of you ever cared about any of these peoples when they were being raped, murdered and tortured in their own countries by mostly the US/UK but you all suddenly got religion when they became refugees and you found them living among you.

Edited August 11, 2017 by hot enough

[betsy]

On 8/10/2017 at 8:47 PM, hot enough said:

What you need to understand, Goddess, is that all this Muslim bashing is just that, Muslim bashing. It is borne of 911 and the mostly US propaganda

 

Winston Churchill goes waaaaaay back.

 

Quote

 

How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries!

Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.

The effects are apparent in many countries, improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.

 

 

A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity.

The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

 

 

Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.

No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.

 

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/churchillislam.asp

 

That profile is still bang-on, even today!

Edited August 12, 2017 by betsy

[betsy]

Here's an interesting, very long research on Muslims and Islam by PEW:

 

Quote

 

August 9, 2017

 

Muslims are the fastest-growing religious group in the world.  Indeed, if current demographic trends continue, the number of Muslims is expected to exceed the number of Christians by the end of this century.

Indonesia is currently the country with the world’s largest Muslim population, but Pew Research Center projects that India will have that distinction by the year 2050 (while remaining a majority-Hindu country), with more than 300 million Muslims.

The Muslim population in Europe also is growing; we project 10% of all Europeans will be Muslims by 2050. 

 

There are two major factors behind the rapid projected growth of Islam, and both involve simple demographics. For one, Muslims have more children than members of other religious groups. Around the world, each Muslim woman has an average of 2.9 children, compared with 2.2 for all other groups combined.

Muslims are also the youngest (median age of 24 years old in 2015) of all major religious groups, seven years younger than the median age of non-Muslims. As a result, a larger share of Muslims already are, or will soon be, at the point in their lives when they begin having children. This, combined with high fertility rates, will fuel Muslim population growth.

While it does not change the global population, migration is helping to increase the Muslim population in some regions, including North America and Europe.

 

Nearly all Muslims in Afghanistan (99%) and most in Iraq (91%) and Pakistan (84%) support sharia law as official law. But in some other countries, especially in Eastern Europe and Central Asia – including Turkey (12%), Kazakhstan (10%) and Azerbaijan (8%) – relatively few favor the implementation of sharia law.

 

 

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/08/09/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

 

 

[eyeball]

On 8/8/2017 at 7:43 AM, bcsapper said:

I would say you are more optimistic than I am, but I hope you're right. 

She's right and clearly more patient too.  Ya'll expect too much - it's going to take at least a generation for reforms maybe two. It just is what it is. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, eyeball said:

She's right and clearly more patient too.  Ya'll expect too much - it's going to take at least a generation for reforms maybe two. It just is what it is. 

I don't know so much.  Two of her examples were of groups oppressed by completely different groups, with only one really having a religious component.  And the religion in that case has faded almost to insignificance when compared to the state that makes the laws.  I don't see that happening with Islam. 

[DogOnPorch]

15 hours ago, bcsapper said:

I don't know so much.  Two of her examples were of groups oppressed by completely different groups, with only one really having a religious component.  And the religion in that case has faded almost to insignificance when compared to the state that makes the laws.  I don't see that happening with Islam. 

Islam has a "do not alter" clause in the Quran that is rather effective at preventing reform. 

Islam's rules re: apostates must be murdered also does a bang-up job at keeping the lid on reform. 

You don't want to be Homer showing-up to mosque in a pink shirt......squared.

[DogOnPorch]

Islam, The Religion of Hate, has struck again: this time in  Barcelona.

https://news.google.com/news/story/dmF_Dta3blNNiYM4EAA8bCSBCtUiM?ned=us&hl=en

Edited August 17, 2017 by DogOnPorch

[DogOnPorch]

At least 13 dead (50+ injured)...crushed by a vehicle...or only 1 dead if you're CBC.

Notice how it barely rates a yawn, now?

Edited August 17, 2017 by DogOnPorch

[GostHacked]

1 hour ago, DogOnPorch said:

At least 13 dead (50+ injured)...crushed by a vehicle...or only 1 dead if you're CBC.

Notice how it barely rates a yawn, now?

Welcome to the new normal. As the wars continue in the M.E. they will bring that back to us. Mission accomplished?