This week in Islam

[dialamah]

39 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I would say you are more optimistic than I am, but I hope you're right. 

I am not that optimistic.  I expect Climate Change to decimate us before Islam can reform, and we'll all revert to the same tribal, superstitious and barbaric behavior that has pervaded our history. 

[Guest]

Just now, dialamah said:

I am not that optimistic.  I expect Climate Change to decimate us before Islam can reform, and we'll all revert to the same tribal, superstitious and barbaric behavior that has pervaded our history. 

That's better.  Always look on the dark side.  That way one isn't so disappointed when it happens.

[dialamah]

29 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I realize it's the process of reform - I've read a lot about the civil rights movement in the US.  No reform happens without growing pains.

That's not the same as the attitude that it's not working or doesn't count.

The civil rights movement was a bit different though.....the majority of blacks WANTED reform.  And many white people worked with them to make that happen.  I dont' see a lot of Muslims WANTING reform. And those that do are shouted down by the majority and others wanting to help them introduce reforms are shouted down and called Islamophobes.  

The noisiest do not necessarily speak for the majority.  The desire for reform is more widespread than you think, though I have no doubt it will be an uphill battle.

[Goddess]

10 minutes ago, dialamah said:

The noisiest do not necessarily speak for the majority.  The desire for reform is more widespread than you think, though I have no doubt it will be an uphill battle.

Saw this yesterday: 

[betsy]

On 8/8/2017 at 10:32 AM, hot enough said:

That's still the US murdering innocent men, women and children, Betsy, and you, a putative christian, revel in that fact. 

There are myriad examples of the US, its own soldiers murdering tens of millions, engaging in the same atrocities. 

Just to be clear, 

Are you supportive of the US funding proxies to slash women's breasts off, skin people alive, ... ? These US crimes against humanity took the lives of some 50,000 innocents. The US was convicted of international terrorism and you avidly support this international terrorism. 

Are you supportive of the US/UK supporting proxies to behead people, dismember them alive, stick hot pokers into their body orifices, ... ? These US/UK crimes against humanity took over a million innocents' lives. 

"Proxy" my foot.  Islam is ancient when compared to the USA!   Sell your bull elsewhere.

[betsy]

23 hours ago, dialamah said:

The noisiest do not necessarily speak for the majority.  The desire for reform is more widespread than you think, though I have no doubt it will be an uphill battle.

Well........maybe the so-called majority ought to speak louder.  After all,  it's them that's being tarnished by the noisy so-called few.  They're getting lumped together with the noisy ones.  Charging people with Islamophobia everytime someone voices an unflattering opinion, isn't exactly a positive step forward, you know.

Anyway, "few" is relative.  What is "few" when we're talking 2.18 billions?

http://muslimpopulation.com/World/

 

Furthermore, it's not really clear-cut  what the majority believes.  How many believe in world dominion?  How many believe that Sharia should be established all over the world?  How many believe that infidels must be given the choice to convert, and only upon rejecting Islam should they be punished?  How many believe that infidels must not be treated as equals, or should treated as equals?  Etc...

How many are "moderates?"  To what degree are they "moderate?" 

 

Edited August 9, 2017 by betsy

[Goddess]

8 minutes ago, betsy said:

How many are "moderates?"  To what degree are they "moderate?" 

This is one of the problems that I see.  What's considered "moderate" in Islam would be considered "extreme" in any other religion or culture.

A Muslim man who believes his wife should never leave the house without a blanket over her head - is that moderate or extreme?  When Muslims do it, it's considered moderate, part of their charming culture.  If anyone else had that rule, it would be considered extreme.

For some reason with this religion, they get a "pass" on a lot of things that most of us would consider extreme, just because they claim it's the religion or culture.

[betsy]

5 minutes ago, Goddess said:

This is one of the problems that I see.  What's considered "moderate" in Islam would be considered "extreme" in any other religion or culture.

A Muslim man who believes his wife should never leave the house without a blanket over her head - is that moderate or extreme?  When Muslims do it, it's considered moderate, part of their charming culture.  If anyone else had that rule, it would be considered extreme.

For some reason with this religion, they get a "pass" on a lot of things that most of us would consider extreme, just because they claim it's the religion or culture.

 

That's why any refugee we accept must be compatible with our ways.  Otherwise, it causes a huge problem for us. 

How can we say equality for all, if we practice a double standard -  turning a blind eye on a Muslim woman who's being prevented from exercising her rights as  any female Canadian citizen.  If we can bend the law for a group, why can't we bend it for everyone?

Edited August 9, 2017 by betsy

[hot enough]

6 hours ago, betsy said:

"Proxy" my foot.  Islam is ancient when compared to the USA!   Sell your bull elsewhere.

Nothing you have said, above, makes any sense. None of the things you have said have anything to do with the US being responsible for committing myriad atrocities, far far more in number than the sum total of all other terrorist actions combined since WWII. The US actually invented terrorism, it has been doing it for longer than any others. The US even invents/creates its own terrorists to pretend to be "terrorists" against western nations, all for US propaganda purposes.

They did it in Europe after WWII, Operation Gladio, creating phony "left wing" terrorist groups that bombed innocents to make citizens angry and encourage them to support "right wing" monsters. You're right wing, aren't you? You seem to have a great delight in seeing innocents slaughtered by the US/UK/other western terrorist countries.

Did you know that the US was trying to create a legal definition for terrorism in the 1970s and everything they came up with, US legals said, "we've done all those things, that definition won't work"?

Edited August 9, 2017 by hot enough

[hot enough]

On 8/9/2017 at 11:06 AM, betsy said:

Well........maybe the so-called majority ought to speak louder

I've been saying this for a long time, Besty. Why are none of you speaking out? The US/UK have slaughtered millions just in the last few years, possibly up to one million Iraqi children under age five just in the 1990s? What's the count today? No one speaks for these people. All you hear is conservatives whining about how their last latte didn't have enough caffeine. 

Listen for once to someone tell you what the US/UK/other war criminals have done to Iraq, but it's the equal for Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, Nicaragua, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, ... . 

Quote

September 2, 2010

Vomiting Perfidy.

 

 

Posted by Layla Anwar at 2.9.10 

http://arabwomanblues.blogspot.ca/2010/09/vomiting-perfidy.html

 

Edited August 10, 2017 by Charles Anthony
article copy deleted

[hot enough]

6 hours ago, Goddess said:

This is one of the problems that I see.  What's considered "moderate" in Islam would be considered "extreme" in any other religion or culture.

Do you consider slaughtering one million Iraqi children in a US planned, with full knowledge of the consequences, "moderate" or "extreme", Goddess?

[Omni]

Yeah I've heard spending too much time thinking about nano thermite pixie dust can make you ill.

[dialamah]

10 hours ago, Goddess said:

This is one of the problems that I see.  What's considered "moderate" in Islam would be considered "extreme" in any other religion or culture.A Muslim man who believes his wife should never leave the house without a blanket over her head - is that moderate or extreme?

I am guessing the words "blanket over her head" refers to a burka, which covers a woman from head to foot and sometimes includes a screen for her eyes.

To answer your question, the burka seems to be extreme in any part of the world, including Muslim majority countries.   I couldn't even find a country that 'required' that women wear a burka and only two that required a hijab.   There are even Muslim-majority countries that have forbidden the wearing of the niqab.

No doubt some men require their wives to wear a burka.  Just as clearly, some women choose to wear a burka.   When I was in Egypt, I saw maybe a dozen women in burkas; perhaps there are more now, but they are certainly not even close to being a majority.

Hijab seems to be a choice many Muslim women make, so perhaps that's a moderate Muslim.  Do you object to the hijab?

 

Quote

 When Muslims do it, it's considered moderate, part of their charming culture.  If anyone else had that rule, it would be considered extreme.

Other than participants, I don't know anyone who considers a burka moderate or charming.  Some of us are more willing to accept it, the same way we're willing to accept nuns in their habits - dating from the Middle Ages when entering a nunnery was often not a choice, but punishment or one of the few places an unmarried girl could go.  Or Mennonite women in their dresses and bonnets, a style reminiscent of the 1700 and 1800s  and symbols for their cultural requirement for modesty and submission to men.   

Quote

For some reason with this religion, they get a "pass" on a lot of things that most of us would consider extreme, just because they claim it's the religion or culture.

All religions get passes on what most of us consider extreme.  There are fundamental Jews who are indistinguishable from Muslim women in black abayas and hijabs, Christian sects that claim polygamy as part of their religion, Roman Catholics who believe in and practice exorcism, the Mormon's 'baptism of the dead', Jehovah's Witnesses refusal of blood transfusions.   They all 'get a pass' despite their weirdness of their beliefs and the sometimes harm they cause.

I object to the rudeness of your "blanket over their heads".   Why would you think such insulting language contributes to a 'reasoned' discussion of Islam or Muslims?

[blackbird]

On 8/6/2017 at 4:17 PM, hot enough said:

See what your christianity has wrought, Betsy! Two centuries of supposedly christian countries, the USA/UK, [and other European powers] raping and pillaging the planet. Neither the US/UK or you are christian in any way, shape or form. 

I don't think you are in any position to say who is a christian or isn't since you know nothing about it.

[Goddess]

10 hours ago, dialamah said:

I am guessing the words "blanket over her head" refers to a burka, which covers a woman from head to foot and sometimes includes a screen for her eyes.

To answer your question, the burka seems to be extreme in any part of the world, including Muslim majority countries.   I couldn't even find a country that 'required' that women wear a burka and only two that required a hijab.   There are even Muslim-majority countries that have forbidden the wearing of the niqab.

No doubt some men require their wives to wear a burka.  Just as clearly, some women choose to wear a burka.   When I was in Egypt, I saw maybe a dozen women in burkas; perhaps there are more now, but they are certainly not even close to being a majority.

Hijab seems to be a choice many Muslim women make, so perhaps that's a moderate Muslim.  Do you object to the hijab?

 

Other than participants, I don't know anyone who considers a burka moderate or charming.  Some of us are more willing to accept it, the same way we're willing to accept nuns in their habits - dating from the Middle Ages when entering a nunnery was often not a choice, but punishment or one of the few places an unmarried girl could go.  Or Mennonite women in their dresses and bonnets, a style reminiscent of the 1700 and 1800s  and symbols for their cultural requirement for modesty and submission to men.   

All religions get passes on what most of us consider extreme.  There are fundamental Jews who are indistinguishable from Muslim women in black abayas and hijabs, Christian sects that claim polygamy as part of their religion, Roman Catholics who believe in and practice exorcism, the Mormon's 'baptism of the dead', Jehovah's Witnesses refusal of blood transfusions.   They all 'get a pass' despite their weirdness of their beliefs and the sometimes harm they cause.

I object to the rudeness of your "blanket over their heads".   Why would you think such insulting language contributes to a 'reasoned' discussion of Islam or Muslims?

Yes, "blanket over their heads" is the burka. Sorry but that's what it looks like and I'm pretty sure that's what it feels like too.  Also sorry, but you're not going to convince me the burka brings any kind of good to humanity. You're not going to convince me that it is some kind of empowering "choice" made by women. Would I call it a "blanket" to a Muslim woman's  face? No.  THAT would be rude. But we are discussing it HERE. 

Only a dozen burka'ed women in Egypt? If you say so. There was at least a dozen of them in Fort Mac so........i haven't been to Egypt so I'll have to take your word for it.

Your "nun's habit" argument has been discussed here many times and I think you know why some of us feel that's not a valid comparison. But you still trot it out.

If you have to compare the burka to "medieval times" and nuns in the 1700 and 1800's......well, think about that for a minute.

The hijab is less offensive to me. But it still prescribes a view of women that I do not agree with. And I also don't agree with the bullying that goes on to force women to "choose" to wear it.

If you think hijabs and burkas are a boon to humanity and empower women, then knock yourself out. Support it all you like.  I do not. But I'm also not as emotionally attached to the garment as you are.

Yes there are other minority religious sects that do things similar to Islam. They are minorities and do not have the numbers or influence that Islam has. Just because some other group does something similar, it doesn't make it right in Islam.

[hot enough]

8 hours ago, blackbird said:

I don't think you are in any position to say who is a christian or isn't since you know nothing about it.

What a vacuous statement, blackbird, totally in keeping with the brainwashed state of the christian mind. Christians don't do what you "christians" are attempting to do. A good example of Christians are those American Quakers who went to Vietnam to set up medical centers to help the Vietnamese who were being napalmed, gook hockeyed, raped, beaten, bombed, ... by American "christians".

Or the American Christians who went down to Nicaragua to live in villages to prevent Reagan the christian's Contras from, 

"go[ing] into villages, they haul out families. With the children forced to watch they castrate the father, they peel the skin off his face, they put a grenade in his mouth and pull the pin. With the children forced to watch they gang-rape the mother, and slash her breasts off. And sometimes for variety, they make the parents watch while they do these
things to the children." John Stockwell

[hot enough]

44 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Yes, "blanket over their heads" is the burka. Sorry but that's what it looks like and I'm pretty sure that's what it feels like too.  Also sorry, but you're not going to convince me the burka brings any kind of good to humanity. You're not going to convince me that it is some kind of empowering "choice" made by women. Would I call it a "blanket" to a Muslim woman's  face? No.  THAT would be rude. But we are discussing it HERE. 

Only a dozen burka'ed women in Egypt? If you say so. There was at least a dozen of them in Fort Mac so........i haven't been to Egypt so I'll have to take your word for it.

Your "nun's habit" argument has been discussed here many times and I think you know why some of us feel that's not a valid comparison. But you still trot it out.

If you have to compare the burka to "medieval times" and nuns in the 1700 and 1800's......well, think about that for a minute.

The hijab is less offensive to me. But it still prescribes a view of women that I do not agree with. And I also don't agree with the bullying that goes on to force women to "choose" to wear it.

If you think hijabs and burkas are a boon to humanity and empower women, then knock yourself out. Support it all you like.  I do not. But I'm also not as emotionally attached to the garment as you are.

Yes there are other minority religious sects that do things similar to Islam. They are minorities and do not have the numbers or influence that Islam has. Just because some other group does something similar, it doesn't make it right in Islam.

You know full well why you are doing this, Goddess. As does every other thinking individual. None of your kind had the least bit of concern during the many long decades, continuing to today, when the US was and still is supporting brutal dictatorships, and Canada to , by supporting the US. 

You are all major hypocrites and other equally immoral, abhorrent nouns that are not allowed to be expressed. 

[dialamah]

53 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Yes, "blanket over their heads" is the burka. Sorry but that's what it looks like and I'm pretty sure that's what it feels like too.  Also sorry, but you're not going to convince me the burka brings any kind of good to humanity. You're not going to convince me that it is some kind of empowering "choice" made by women. Would I call it a "blanket" to a Muslim woman's  face? No.  THAT would be rude. But we are discussing it HERE. 

Nowhere in my post did I put forth the idea that a burka is good for humanity or is an empowering choice for women; I did note that given it's relative rarity even in the Muslim world, it would seem to be a more extreme practice.    I also expressed my belief that some men do require women to wear the burka, while some women choose to wear it.    This would be an acknowledgement that there are two sides to the issue - one of choice, one of coercion.   

How very kind of you not to insult people to their faces, only when they are out of earshot.  

53 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Only a dozen burka'ed women in Egypt? If you say so. There was at least a dozen of them in Fort Mac so........i haven't been to Egypt so I'll have to take your word for it.

What I said was "When I was there, I only saw about a dozen" and "maybe there are more now, but nowhere close to being a majority".   

Yes, I am beginning to understand that Fort Mac is representative, in your mind at least, of every single Muslim on the planet:  rude, extreme and violent.   I do wonder how many Muslims you knew in Fort Mac who you didn't recognize as Muslim because they failed to dress or act the way you expected them to.

53 minutes ago, Goddess said:

If you have to compare the burka to "medieval times" and nuns in the 1700 and 1800's......well, think about that for a minute.

Yes, indeed - perhaps you should.   You are fine accepting *some* practices that hearken back to an historical time when women were second class citizens, but not those labeled "Islamic".  This would be called "double standard".   

53 minutes ago, Goddess said:

The hijab is less offensive to me. But it still prescribes a view of women that I do not agree with. And I also don't agree with the bullying that goes on to force women to "choose" to wear it.

Would you agree with bullying women who want to wear it?   And do you disagree with Sikh women who wear a scarf or turban over their head, given that their religion and culture also keeps women in a subordinate position?  Or is your offense limited to Muslims?

53 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Yes there are other minority religious sects that do things similar to Islam. They are minorities and do not have the numbers or influence that Islam has. Just because some other group does something similar, it doesn't make it right in Islam.

Women in hijabs are also a minority in Canada and women in burkas are a minority within a minority.    We disagree on the degree of influence Muslims have or are likely to have in Canada when it comes to women's rights or the law.   I believe they have about the same influence that fundamental Christians have when it comes to preventing women from having abortions or gays from marrying.

 

Edited August 10, 2017 by dialamah

[Goddess]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

Nowhere in my post did I put forth the idea that a burka is good for humanity or is an empowering choice for women;

But you defend it every chance you get.  And you get offended and don't allow anyone else but yourself to say it's not good for humanity or empowers women.

I'm not sure what you're trying to convince me of.  You are very contradictory.

[GostHacked]

23 hours ago, betsy said:

Well........maybe the so-called majority ought to speak louder.

Many are speaking up about it,  the problem is that some are not listening because it allows those that oppose Islam all together,  to continue with their line of thinking.

[dialamah]

12 minutes ago, Goddess said:

But you defend it every chance you get.  And you get offended and don't allow anyone else but yourself to say it's not good for humanity or empowers women.

I'm not sure what you're trying to convince me of.  You are very contradictory.

People use the excuse that they are engaging in valid criticsm of Islam in order to say things like: Muslims are violent, backward, misogynistic people who force women to wear blankets over their heads, who want to kill infidels and gays, impose Sharia law on everyome and who engage in rape for fun.

Any kind of counter to such sweeping and often incorrect statements is met with "you are defending barbaric practices and refuse to admit that Islam needs reforming".

In the meantime, I have criticized Islam for its paternalistic beliefs, and Muslim majority countries for their human rights abuses.  But because I don't also repeat hyperbolic statements or use insulting language this is not accepted. Its not that I am confusing, its that you can't inderstand how I can both disaprive of Islam without having to insult.or be afraid of all Muslims

 

[betsy]

14 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

Many are speaking up about it,  the problem is that some are not listening because it allows those that oppose Islam all together,  to continue with their line of thinking.

 

I know of one who speaks about it: Tareq Fatah

 

It must be hard to hear those Muslims speaking about it.......

...........when many Muslims drown them out, with cries of  Islamophobia!

 

 

Edited August 10, 2017 by betsy

[Goddess]

18 minutes ago, dialamah said:

In the meantime, I have criticized Islam for its paternalistic beliefs, and Muslim majority countries for their human rights abuses.  But because I don't also repeat hyperbolic statements or use insulting language this is not accepted. Its not that I am confusing, its that you can't inderstand how I can both disaprive of Islam without having to insult.or be afraid of all Muslims

And I criticise it for the same things.  But becasue I don't agree with your assessment that it's just a tiny, barely perceptable, why worry about it?, everyone else is doing the same things, minority of Islam that share those beliefs, you interpret that as being "afraid of all Muslims".

I think Fort Mac is more representative of Islam than you like to think. No, I don't think it's ALL of them, but I think there are a lot more Muslims who subscribe to these beliefs than you think.  

I had a lot of contact of with Muslims up there and few experiences were positive.  Watching a group of about 30 random Muslims attack an Israeli girl and describe the horrific ways they wanted to see Jews die, was an eye-opener for me.  Not one of the other Muslims said, "Hey, this is isn't right".  They all joined in.  And here we have Altai - same hatred of Jews, hatred of anything Western, promoter of Sharia law (but not for "herself" obviously from the profile pics) I've seen in most Muslims. A total hypocrite.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Goddess

[GostHacked]

20 minutes ago, betsy said:

 

I know of one who speaks about it: Tareq Fatah

 

It must be hard to hear those Muslims speaking about it.......

...........when many Muslims drown them out, with cries of  Islamophobia!

 

 

It also seems just as hard for some to actually listen now and then.

[Goddess]

26 minutes ago, betsy said:

 

I know of one who speaks about it: Tareq Fatah

 

It must be hard to hear those Muslims speaking about it.......

...........when many Muslims drown them out, with cries of  Islamophobia!

 

 

There are quite a few trying to promote some reform in Islam.  They are the heroes in my opinion.  i think West Coast Runner posted some links to other groups who are trying to reform Islam.  They are frequently shouted down and threatened by their own Muslim community and by others who like to throw the Islamophobe label around.  

Edited August 10, 2017 by Goddess