Truth and Reconciliation

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

That's not a value.  That's "me me me me me".  Two year-olds have that down pat already.

What governments did and allowed was every bit or more as selfish - take take take except it was more like an undisciplined 8 year old vs a two year old. The days of might making right have passed us by. Jurisprudence has matured and is changing everything and we still live in the middle of its generations long process.

It's bound to be contentious looking at it from the inside out but I'm certain it'll be an ultimately civilizing and revolutionizing process that will better reflect everyone's aspirations in the end.  And don't forget I'm looking at this from the perspective of someone who was dealt out of a fishery so that fishery could be returned to people who had a prior and ultimately legally superior claim to it. 

It just is what it is. I've said before that small vessel owners are like canaries in a coal mine. You should see how many old abandoned boats there on beaches not to mention fish plants falling off their pilings.

Someone clearly didn't think this through before implementing reconciliation around here but that's not First Nations fault.

There're a lot of good reasons for greater local management.

[Moonbox]

2 minutes ago, eyeball said:

What governments did and allowed was every bit or more as selfish - take take take except it was more like an undisciplined 8 year old vs a two year old. The days of might making right have passed us by. Jurisprudence has matured and is changing everything and we still live in the middle of its generations long process.

This has little to do with the "values" you're touting.  You've said before that all you really care about now is what the federal government can give and your community.  I took your comment as more of the same.  

3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

There're a lot of good reasons for greater local management.

Greater local management...when it suits you, but not so much when it doesn't.  You're not so much about local management when it comes to drilling for oil one province over, are you?  

[Five of swords]

5 hours ago, eyeball said:

So you propose a reconquest of Canada but without the jurisprudence this time, how exactly?

Something Tells me you haven't thought this through.

Just the destruction of the western world will be good enough. I think it is inevitable anyway.

[Black Dog]

2 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

I did,. Your tribes exploited, killed, tortured and enslaved  and stole their territory with all that they battled with. Don't be self righteous. Your ancestors were horrible people and gave no lenience to whomever thy conquered.

Why do you assume I'm Indigenous you racist weirdo?

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You deny that?

So, I think that you should read the history books, not the bullshit stories told by your grandfather that has been changed every time it was told LOL

 

I don't know what point you think you're trying to make here by being a giant racist loser. No one claimed that the indigenous peoples were perfect angels living in peace and harmony, but the question is irrelevant.

Europeans spent hundreds of years murdering and enslaving each other too but that wouldn't be justification for conquering them.

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Once again, what have you done for Canada in the past 300 years except take, take, take.

You're confusing the indigenous people for the settler colonists who took, took, took everything they could get their hands on. An easy mistake for a stupid person like you to make.

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I am no racist, I am a realist and can see lazy ass bums when I see them. Canada has fed clothed, housed , educated and given you money for 40 generations and you have not given anything in return.

Go ahead, try and prove me wrong. Defend your welfare society with proof....

40 generations is about 1,000 years, you're as bad at math as you are critical thinking.

They also took their land, took their children, destroyed their cultures, got them hooked on booze and drugs, r*ped their women and kids, broke the treaties that were made in good faith. That Indigenous people have so many issues today is a direct product of 200+ years of colonization and if that reality is triggering to you, tough shit. You broke it, you own it.

[herbie]

46 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

Why do you assume I'm Indigenous you racist weirdo?

Because you're not a fellow redneck, obviously.

You may have read some history and understood the natives here were never "conquered" but were subject to forced assimilation, unfulfilled treaty promises and deprived of meaningful input on anything to do with their own situation.
The objection is from others not being able to continue denying their traditional rights. As I said previously "We told you a pipeline/mine is going there" is not consultation and is no longer acceptable.

Edited October 2 by herbie

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Black Dog said:

 

Europeans spent hundreds of years murdering and enslaving each other too but that wouldn't be justification for conquering them.

why not?

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You're confusing the indigenous people for the settler colonists who took, took, took everything they could get their hands on. An easy mistake for a stupid person like you to make.

The first nations are colonial  settlers. They didn't involve here, they walked here

 

 

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They also took their land, took their children, destroyed their cultures, got them hooked on booze and drugs, r*ped their women and kids, broke the treaties that were made in good faith.

Nope, nope, nope,well sort of with booze, not drugs, nope and nope.

In fact the majority of rapes then and now done to first nations are by... you guessed it....  first nations. Its' an age old tradition from a group who consider women to be chattel for trade.  When they did the missing women enquiry the indigenous women begged that the rapist men not be punished for it, and that was not the first time that had come up. 

THe first nations still have their land and have every single right that 'whitey' does, and then some.  And the destruction of their culture was at their own hands for the most part. 

I know - you'd like to blame whitey for every single thing that's gone wrong with the first nations as if they are children with no ability to manage their own affairs or build something on their own.  You would have us believe they are a child race. 

Dozens of other cultures came here with nothing, and within a generation were thriving. Those fleeing russia often got here with the clothes on their backs fleeing massive death and war and torture in their home lands during the revolution, and were gifted a small bit of land but thats it.  They went on to form strong communities, learn the language, build a future and have a thriving life in no time 

 

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That Indigenous people have so many issues today is a direct product of 200+ years of colonization and if that reality is triggering to you, tough shit. You broke it, you own it.

nope. It is 100% their own inability to take responsibility for their own lives and their own communities and their own people and to turn to the government to hold their hands and wipe their butts while at the same time complaining that it's the government that caused all their problems

Every other group that comes here finds solutions to make their way even though they often came from horrible terrible circumstance. These guys have been crippled for 200 years because they went to school? I don't think so

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, Moonbox said:

This has little to do with the "values" you're touting. You've said before that all you really care about now is what the federal government can give and your community. I took your comment as more of the same.  

You play the hand you're dealt I guess. 

3 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Greater local management...when it suits you, but not so much when it doesn't.  You're not so much about local management when it comes to drilling for oil one province over, are you? 

I sure am. As I understand it there's plenty of resistance to more oil and gas development there that is railroaded over. Something to do with thousands of old abandoned wells already littering the landscape, gas flaring and other environmentally detrimental things that are being allowed to continue.

Local government doesn't excuse not thinking globally while acting locally. I think it encourages it actually. The more places there are basing their management on local values the better. Surrender your governance or submit to the values of people 1000's of miles away and it'll show...quickly.

Edited October 2 by eyeball

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, Five of swords said:

Just the destruction of the western world will be good enough. I think it is inevitable anyway.

I think so too sometimes but I vacillate between that and wanting to be optimistic.

[Venandi]

7 hours ago, herbie said:

Pretty damn obvious the only relationships or knowledge about indigenous peoples a lot of you have came over beers with your fellow rednecks.

Half of my extended family is native, some of us got together for supper on Monday night.

7 hours ago, herbie said:

WTF has that even remotely got to do with reconciliation? WTF has this pinheaded meme obsession with throwing any two things that tick you off together to make them seem related got to do with reality FFS?

Your breathtaking inability to connect the dots here is (IMO of course) what actually perpetuates the morally repugnant mistakes your government has become adept at apologizing for…. mutilating minor children will be on that apology list in due course.

The point is, some of us see parallels in terms of harm done... even if (or when) the number of those harmed is numerically less but systemic in nature. I'd call that compassion... funny how it often seems that those most grievously harmed have the greatest capacity for it.

So ironically, your post actually supports the point I was (perhaps clumsily) trying to make, that all too often ignorant people with good intentions serve as a catalyst for pi$$ poor ideas that result future apologies.

What you consider gibberish was actually the topic of conversation over supper, believe it or not, you would have been an army of one at the table... thanks for playing.

Edited October 2 by Venandi

[CdnFox]

14 minutes ago, Venandi said:

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Pretty damn obvious the only relationships or knowledge about indigenous peoples a lot of you have came over beers with your fellow rednecks.

Half of my extended family is native, some of us got together for supper on Monday night.

yeah but ,,, like... redneck natives right?!?   (no?) 

[Venandi]

Well, one of them often wears a cowboy hat; smaller version of a Stetson and it's full grain leather.

That counts... right? 

Edited October 2 by Venandi

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, Venandi said:

One of them wears a cowboy hat... smaller version of a Stetson and it's leather. That counts, right? 

Well does he even chaw tobacco or anything?!! 

I was going to be a cowboy but it's hard for dyslexics. Ride the horse, kiss the girl. SOUNDS easy to remember... 

[Venandi]

28 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Well does he even chaw tobacco or anything?!! 

Actually that would be me, or was me during my forestry days.

Hard to set things on fire with spit.

I hadn't thought of the irony until just now but my chew of choice at the time was Red Man....  I think they call it "America's Best Chew" now and I'm guessing they changed the name to keep all of the Herbies off their back. 

Here's another bit of fun to spin the Herbies, I drive a 2016 Indian Springfield motorcycle.  

How do ya like me now Herb?

Edited October 2 by Venandi

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Venandi said:

Actually that would be me, or was me during my forestry days.

Hard to set things on fire with spit.

I hadn't thought of the irony until just now but my chew of choice at the time was Red Man....  I think they call it "America's Best Chew" now and I'm guessing they changed the name to keep all of the Herbies off their back. 

Here's another bit of fun to spin the Herbies, I drive a 2016 Indian Springfield motorcycle.  

How do ya like me now Herb?

A Canadian first nations person driving an american bike with a mildly racist name chewing kentucky tobbacco with an aussie outback hat. 

Tell me multiculturalism doesn't work   

[Five of swords]

9 hours ago, eyeball said:

I think so too sometimes but I vacillate between that and wanting to be optimistic.

The people who can save this civilization are exactly the people the civilization hates the most. It is doomed.

[ExFlyer]

13 hours ago, Black Dog said:

Why do you assume I'm Indigenous you racist weirdo?

I don't know what point you think you're trying to make here by being a giant racist loser. No one claimed that the indigenous peoples were perfect angels living in peace and harmony, but the question is irrelevant.

Europeans spent hundreds of years murdering and enslaving each other too but that wouldn't be justification for conquering them.

You're confusing the indigenous people for the settler colonists who took, took, took everything they could get their hands on. An easy mistake for a stupid person like you to make.

40 generations is about 1,000 years, you're as bad at math as you are critical thinking.

They also took their land, took their children, destroyed their cultures, got them hooked on booze and drugs, r*ped their women and kids, broke the treaties that were made in good faith. That Indigenous people have so many issues today is a direct product of 200+ years of colonization and if that reality is triggering to you, tough shit. You broke it, you own it.

I don't assume. You speak as you are.

You asked me to read history. I did  and slapped you in the face with facts. You still spew emotional trash.....with no proof of your discharge.

I asked a question, what have the indigenous added to Canada, and you have refused or cannot answer. That is not racist, that is a question that you seem to be unable to answer.

Yup, Europeans colonized and won the wars and battles but....so did the indigenous. The glass house the indigenous lived in is all broken.

Nope, I do not confuse at all, the indigenous lost. They were not just fighting another tribe , they lost to a mightier force. And when you lose, you lose. Just like the tribes they conquered lost and were killed, tortured and taken as slaves.  The Europeans won.

300 years is 11 Generations  and 400 years is 15 Generations. The lacking of math skills is on you . Not being critical, being correct. LOL. https://howmanygenerations.com/

All I ask you to do is prove your accusations. I proved mine and all you have is useless BS rhetoric.

As for getting them hooked on drugs and alcohol, well, that is truly BS. Every person can decide their life path and when you have generations not having to work or do anything for everything they have, well, they wander off a path of their own religious, righteous, live off the land mentality. They chose to do drugs and alcohol just like anyone. All addicts always blame someone else.

Bottom line, you have nothing to defend or prove your claims. You just keep blowing rhetorical smoke. The losers are the ones whining and complain but still demanding to be given everything form the clothes on their backs to housing to vehicles and everything that other Canadians have to pay for.

I am not racist in any way, I believe in equality no mater what race, colour, religion or creed you are. If you can prove anything you say, please, I await but, I suspect you have no proof, just emotional BS.

Edited October 2 by ExFlyer

[I am Groot]

21 hours ago, Black Dog said:

It's f*cking hilarious to see people complaining about Indigenous people being dependent on government when that was the express goal of 125 years of government policy towards them, but somehow that's the native peoples' fault.

That was never the point of government policy towards them. First, government policy was to clear them off the land so it could be settled. That's when they were offered things to settle on other land. After that, the government found themselves locked into taking care of them. There have been periodic efforts to get natives off the welfare wagon but native leaders have resisted furiously. They like the welfare wagon, especially since they get to distribute the money and skim off the top. They have steadfastly opposed removing the Indian Act or anything that would lessen their power and wealth. 

Their ambition seems to be self-government, with them having full control over all their affairs, but us still paying all the bills.

 

19 hours ago, Black Dog said:

It was. The whole point of shoving them onto reserves was to make them utterly dependent on the government. Part of that was out of necessity as the near extinction of the bison in the prairies threatened many Indigenous people with starvation, but there was also no denying that a population dependent on the state for survival and cut off from their own way of life by government would be easier to control and attempt to assimilate.

Point of order. If the government assimilated them they would no longer be dependent on the government.

Edited October 2 by I am Groot

[I am Groot]

19 hours ago, Black Dog said:

It was. The whole point of shoving them onto reserves was to make them utterly dependent on the government. Part of that was out of necessity as the near extinction of the bison in the prairies threatened many Indigenous people with starvation, but there was also no denying that a population dependent on the state for survival and cut off from their own way of life by government would be easier to control and attempt to assimilate.

A government that wants everyone dependent on it so it will be in control pretty much describes today's Liberal/NDP government.

[I am Groot]

19 hours ago, Black Dog said:

Gee I wonder why a people that were violently subjugated, had their land stolen, were confined to shitty reserves, had their communities destroyed, their cultures criminalized, their children stolen and r*ped might not be in great shape today.

Their children were never stolen. There was a 30 year period when attendance at a school was mandatory - either residential schools or day schools on/near reserves. Even then only a third of native kids went. Were some children at residential schools sexually abused? Yes, sadly. Were some children on reserves sexually abused there? Yes, sadly. 

In any event, mandatory attendance at residential schools ended 75 years ago. How long do they get to hide in a corner and whine? Look at what was done to the Jews in Europe. Afterward, they went to the shittiest place on Earth and thrived.

[Nationalist]

Question: What are we, in 2024, supposed to reconcile?

And perhaps...why?

[I am Groot]

17 hours ago, herbie said:

The descendants of the hundreds of tribes constantly warring in Europe until they 'evolved' into three significant colonizers now faded into history seem not to have all evolved their morals, that's for sure.

Really? Okay, which country would you like to live in that isn't white or heavily influenced in their laws and morals by Europeans/Americans?

17 hours ago, herbie said:

We f*cked up in the past, we committed crimes and indignities with malicious intent

Would you care to compare what 'crimes' and 'indignities' we committed in the past with what other nations and governments were doing at the same time? The problem with you illiberals is you ignore context.

 

17 hours ago, herbie said:

and our current govt and most citizens recognize that fact and have admitted and apologized for that.
So reconciliation is merely attempting to repair and address those issues so get with it. Evolve yourselves.

It's the height of stupidity to make people today responsible for compensating other people of today because of what other people did to other people in the past. 

 

[I am Groot]

13 hours ago, Black Dog said:

I don't know what point you think you're trying to make here by being a giant racist loser. No one claimed that the indigenous peoples were perfect angels living in peace and harmony, but the question is irrelevant.

Europeans spent hundreds of years murdering and enslaving each other too but that wouldn't be justification for conquering them.

I think you're missing out on how confusing your own statements are. You admit the people here were no different in their ruthless warmongering and slavetaking ways than the Europeans. All over Europe - and here - the stronger fought and took land from the weaker. That was the way of the whole world. Why then is it like some kind of religious original sin that some of the stronger Europeans came over and conquered here? Because they certainly treated natives better than natives would have treated those they conquered. If the Europeans had conquered the locals the way the locals made war there'd be no discussion today because they'd all be dead. 

The natives weren't innocents. They played the same game as the Europeans. They just lost. 

 

 

[BeaverFever]

Ah the annual racist anti-indigenous rant.

On 9/30/2024 at 1:05 PM, I am Groot said:

I see today's natives, much as I see blacks, as too wrapped up in their victimhood

Ironically incessantly whining about the tiny percentage of your tax dollars going to someone who is not you, while dismissing genocidal acts that have consequences on people to this day is the pinnacle of “being wrapped up in your own victimhood”

[Five of swords]

32 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Their children were never stolen. There was a 30 year period when attendance at a school was mandatory - either residential schools or day schools on/near reserves. Even then only a third of native kids went. Were some children at residential schools sexually abused? Yes, sadly. Were some children on reserves sexually abused there? Yes, sadly. 

In any event, mandatory attendance at residential schools ended 75 years ago. How long do they get to hide in a corner and whine? Look at what was done to the Jews in Europe. Afterward, they went to the shittiest place on Earth and thrived.

I don't understand why them being sexually abused is connected to them being natives. It is a well known cliche that kids in catholic schools are sexually abused. All kids. What does them being native have to do with anything? All kids in catholic school also had to suffer corporal punishment...etc. I don't see how those issues specifically relate to anything about them being native.

 

The only thing that really is connected to them being native is that they were being trained to be in a European culture rather than a native culture, which is not in their dna. But for people to admit that this matters in any way they would first have to admit that dna matters...which of course means that Adolf Hitler did nothing wrong. So nobody is allowed to argue that.

[Black Dog]

1 hour ago, ExFlyer said:

I don't assume. You speak as you are.

In other words, you assumed that the only reason a person wouldn't be racist towards Indigenous people is because tehy are one, which is wild.

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You asked me to read history. I did  and slapped you in the face with facts. You still spew emotional trash.....with no proof of your discharge.

You posted a bunch of irrelevant garbage to justify colonization and other atrocities.

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I asked a question, what have the indigenous added to Canada, and you have refused or cannot answer. That is not racist, that is a question that you seem to be unable to answer.

Indigenous people have contributed plenty but I know that no example i give you will be good enough because you would inevitably claim those are outliers and that the people as a whole are useless.

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Yup, Europeans colonized and won the wars and battles but....so did the indigenous. The glass house the indigenous lived in is all broken.

Nope, I do not confuse at all, the indigenous lost. They were not just fighting another tribe , they lost to a mightier force. And when you lose, you lose. Just like the tribes they conquered lost and were killed, tortured and taken as slaves.  The Europeans won.

 

LOL you clearly don't know the history of this country if you think that's how tit went down here. Here's a hint, google the treaties.

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300 years is 11 Generations  and 400 years is 15 Generations. The lacking of math skills is on you . Not being critical, being correct. LOL. https://howma1nygenerations.com/

 

You said 40  generations, your website says 40 generations is 1065 years lol.

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As for getting them hooked on drugs and alcohol, well, that is truly BS. Every person can decide their life path and when you have generations not having to work or do anything for everything they have, well, they wander off a path of their own religious, righteous, live off the land mentality. They chose to do drugs and alcohol just like anyone. All addicts always blame someone else.

The settlers literally gave the Indigenous people booze you numpty.

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Bottom line, you have nothing to defend or prove your claims. You just keep blowing rhetorical smoke. The losers are the ones whining and complain but still demanding to be given everything form the clothes on their backs to housing to vehicles and everything that other Canadians have to pay for.

Like I said, tough shit, that was the deal the Crown made.

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I am not racist in any way, I believe in equality no mater what race, colour, religion or creed you are. If you can prove anything you say, please, I await but, I suspect you have no proof, just emotional BS.

You're obviously and openly extremely racist against native folks. Just own it dummy.

38 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Their children were never stolen. There was a 30 year period when attendance at a school was mandatory - either residential schools or day schools on/near reserves. Even then only a third of native kids went. Were some children at residential schools sexually abused? Yes, sadly. Were some children on reserves sexually abused there? Yes, sadly. 

In any event, mandatory attendance at residential schools ended 75 years ago. How long do they get to hide in a corner and whine? Look at what was done to the Jews in Europe. Afterward, they went to the shittiest place on Earth and thrived.

OK let's take a third of your kids away (assuming you have any) and give them to priests to r@pe, sound like a good deal to you?