Feds Delay MAID for Mental Health again

[blackbird]

5 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

MAID is an exception too.   Jesus spoke about mercy and compassions.  That’s where MAID aligns with Jesus’ word. 

So you think it is ok too play God.  That's what MAID does.  People take on the role of God to decide who should live and who should die.  

You have no right to promote that.  That is itself playing God.  Just promoting something like MAID is promoting the killing of people who are made in the image of God.  

"7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. "  Genesis 2:7

"19  I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20  That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them." Deuteronomy 30:19, 20

21 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said:

That Jesus is merciful and compassionate?  I have a lot of passages about that!

That is true, but nowhere does the Bible give you the authority to play God and end someone's life.  That is not mercy or compassion.  That is strictly forbidden.  "thou shalt not kill".  -Exodus.

 

Edited January 31 by blackbird

[blackbird]

5 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

MAID is an exception too.   Jesus spoke about mercy and compassions.  That’s where MAID aligns with Jesus’ word. 

Completely false.  Nowhere does the Bible say anything like that.

"God alone is sovereign over when and how a person’s death occurs. Job testifies in Job 30:23, “I know you will bring me down to death, to the place appointed for all the living.” Ecclesiastes 8:8 declares, “No man has power over the wind to contain it; so no one has power over the day of his death.” God has the final say over death (see 1 Corinthians 15:26, 54–56; Hebrews 2:9, 14–15; Revelation 21:4). Euthanasia and assisted suicide are man’s attempts to usurp that authority from God."

What does the Bible say about euthanasia / assisted suicide? | GotQuestions.org

Your problem seems to be you want to play God and use the Bible to do that.  So you cherry pick some verses that have nothing to do with MAID or make outlandish claims that Jesus supports it which has no basis at all in the Bible.

What do you believe about the Bible and Jesus in general apart from the MAID subject?

Edited January 31 by blackbird

[TreeBeard]

10 minutes ago, blackbird said:

So you think it is ok too play God.  That's what MAID does.  People take on the role of God to decide who should live and who should die.  

Yes, absolutely we should play God.  If you have pneumonia I want you to play God and save your life with antibiotics.  If you’re suffering from terminal cancer I want you to play God to end your suffering, if you choose.  

 

8 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Your problem seems to be you want to play God and use the Bible to do that.  So you cherry pick some verses that have nothing to do with MAID or make outlandish claims that Jesus supports it which has no basis at all in the Bible.

Yes.  The bible, through mercy and compassion, supports MAID.  

 

8 minutes ago, blackbird said:

What do you believe about the Bible and Jesus in general apart from the MAID subject?

I think Christians are better people when they cherry pick the bible.  The ones who throw out the anti-gay stuff are better people than yourself, for instance.  

[Aristides]

6 hours ago, blackbird said:

God ordered the death penalty for murder in Genesis 9:6 "6  Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. "

That has never been changed to my knowledge.

You were asked a question. Do you favour the death penalty?

[blackbird]

5 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

Jesus spoke about mercy and compassions.  That’s where MAID aligns with Jesus’ word. 

There are lots of Christian-based or Bible-based website that oppose MAID.

Have you seen any that support it?

"

25 Bible Verses and the Problem of Euthanasia

In nine states and in Washington, DC, it is legal to decide the day of your own death should you feel that your suffering is too much to bear. Though this is defined as euthanasia—according to Merriam-Webster, “the act or practice of killing or permitting the death of hopelessly sick or injured individuals…in a relatively painless way for reasons of mercy”—proponents of this heinous act prefer the euphemism “death with dignity.”

But regardless of what the secular world calls it, taking the life of an innocent person—sick, elderly, disabled, or otherwise—is both wrong and immoral. We know this because the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that “whatever its motives and means, direct euthanasia consists in putting an end to the lives of handicapped, sick, or dying persons. It is morally unacceptable.” It further teaches that “those whose lives are diminished or weakened deserve special respect” (2277).

Respect for the sanctity and dignity of all human beings is an integral part of a Culture of Life. Yet the world erroneously teaches that people should be able to decide when they die. This takes the power out of the hands of God and gives it to man. Not only that, but it makes those who are sick and dying believe that they are burdens who should lighten the load for their caregivers, when it should be the caregivers who lighten the load for the sick and dying.

How do we know this? We read stories throughout the Bible that teach about the sanctity of life. We see teachings that prohibit murder. We see teachings commanding us to love one another. We see passages commanding us to give of ourselves to others. And we read about the value of suffering."

25 Bible Verses about Euthanasia (hli.org)

What Does the Bible Say About Support Euthanasia? (openbible.info)

What does the Bible say about euthanasia and assisted suicide? - Christian Concern

11 Bible verses about Euthanasia (knowing-jesus.com)

TGC Course | End of Life Issues: Death, Suicide, and Euthanasia (thegospelcoalition.org)

 

2 minutes ago, Aristides said:

You were asked a question. Do you favour the death penalty?

For murder, yes.  That's what Genesis 9:6 says.

[eyeball]

32 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Where does it say that?

I haven't got a clue, go ask blackbird. You saw what he said, people who choose MAID come short of the glory of God. What else does that mean?  If not eternal damnation then is it just mere purgatory or a simple scolding perhaps?

[herbie]

17 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

Yes, absolutely we should play God.

If you believe an omniscient being created you, you'd think that was exactly what they would've expected of us. Is that not the object of some religions?
After all isn't that the essence of every sci-fi movie made is, the robot seeking to become more and more human. It's what we expect of our creations.

[Dougie93]

5 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

My objection to god's grand design relates to the second law of thermodynamics actually. That really finishes us all.

It's a LAW.

God is not trying to prevent you from dying

 imagine if this world was the opposite

you never died, you lived forever

see how there would be no meaning in that ?

see how that would be life without purpose ?

every day is a gift for soul making machines

yet there must be a beginning, a middle, and an end therein

otherwise you would not be alive at all, but rather simply an automaton by clockwork

to wit, death is the meaning of life

as only in the face of death ; will you seek love

[TreeBeard]

27 minutes ago, Aristides said:

You were asked a question. Do you favour the death penalty?

@blackbird does favour the death penalty.  
 

The question I have for @blackbird is if he thinks the death penalty should be handed out for children who strike their parents, like the bible advocates. 

If Genesis is good enough to establish the death penalty for murder, why isn’t Exodus reason for the other death penalties.   He cherry picks the bible with reasons like Exodus not being the law of God any longer since the sacrifice of Jesus.

But then it begs the question of the morality of killing someone for being gay, or someone who strikes their parents   How was it moral then, but wouldn’t be now.  This nullifies the argument that Christian morality is objective if the rules can just change.   More questions than answers in that bible!

 

Edited February 1 by TreeBeard

[TreeBeard]

31 minutes ago, blackbird said:

There are lots of Christian-based or Bible-based website that oppose MAID.

Have you seen any that support it?

I think the United Church supports MAID.  They seem to be the best of the Christians in a lot of ways.  Women ministers, gay marriage, etc. 

Edited February 1 by TreeBeard

[blackbird]

21 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

I think the United Church supports MAID.  They seem to be the best of the Christians in a lot of ways.  Women ministers, gay marriage, etc. 

If you want a church that doesn't believe or follow the Bible, there it is.

quote

What kind of a church has an atheist pastor?

You’ve probably heard of Gretta Vosper. She’s the minister of West Hill United Church in Scarborough. In 2001 she started describing herself publicly as a “non-theist.” Since 2013 she’s used a more direct term: “atheist.”

As you might expect, the outlandish idea of an atheist minister has captured the imagination of journalists and the praise of many inside and outside the church. It has also provoked substantial criticism, but so far the church has not followed through on calls to remove her from ordained ministry.

In today’s United Church, requiring ministers to believe in God is a controversial idea. So what’s the story behind the United Church of Canada? 

The Long Decline

From the standpoint of the Sixties, this all seemed like a plausible strategy: get rid of old thinking, embrace the world’s progressive causes, and you’ll remain relevant. Stay stuck in your ways, and you’ll be left behind by a rapidly changing society.

Plausible, but wrong. In one of the great ironies of Christian history, churches that followed this strategy lost both members and influence, while churches that took the opposite tack gained both.

Now, the post-1960 era would have been challenging for large mainline churches in any event. North American cultural elites—the gatekeepers of formal education, mass media, government policy—were less friendly than ever before to Christianity. At the same time the power of those elites to shape the thought-world of ordinary people was intensifying, thanks to the arrival of TV, rising rates of high school and university enrollment, and the emergence of a new, rebellious youth culture. A difficult road lay ahead for churches in any event.

The strategy adopted by the United Church made that road much more difficult. On one side, it drove out many members and their families with evangelical convictions—people who were often highly committed churchgoers, givers, and volunteers, the backbone of local congregations. They left for Baptist and Pentecostal and other evangelical churches, many of which are today peppered with ex-United Church members.

On the other side, in speaking to lukewarm or skeptical members, the church was left without a compelling answer to the question—increasingly pressing after 1960—“why should I get my family out of bed to attend church every Sunday?” If the traditional core beliefs of Christianity were psychological metaphors at best and outright lies at worst, and if “the world” had the real answers, why go to church at all? The trickle of escaping evangelicals was thus joined by a large exodus of people who left church altogether.

The result? Between 1968 and 2009 the United Church lost over half its members, during a time in which the Canadian population grew by more than 50%. Over the same period, several evangelical denominations following the opposite strategy, like the Fellowship Baptists, the Mennonite Brethren, and the Pentecostals grew explosively, more than doubling their membership.

 unquote

The United Church of Canada: What You Need to Know - The Gospel Coalition | Canada

Edited February 1 by blackbird

[Army Guy]

20 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

Because they chose to.   Apples and oranges.  One is an individual choice to end their own suffering, the other is the state sanctioning killing someone.  If you don’t see the difference there, I’m not sure what to tell you. 

I was referring to those with mental health issues...those that can't be held responsible for their own actions...those that can't be held reasonable for murder, etc...and yet we are contemplating giving them the choice to end their own lifes...or perhaps having the choice made for them...

And if we are ok with that why not handing out the death penalty when it warrants it... 

It just seems to me our morals and values are not in the right place, if we give those with mental health issues the freedom of choice.... And technically both are sanctioned by the state, no difference. 

[GroundskeeperWillie]

On 1/29/2024 at 2:49 PM, Boges said:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/medical-assistance-in-dying-mental-illness-delay-1.7098313

I honestly don't know how something like this can really be on the table. 

Do we really care about treating Mental Health if we allow people to off themselves? 

I've heard of people trying to apply to MAID because they can't afford a certain standard of living. 

IMHO MAID should only be maid available to spare someone suffering from a terminal disease. Otherwise, you can off yourself. 

I've heard that the federal government also offers MAID to war veterans who suffer from certain service-related injuries. It's absolutely shameful.  Our veterans put their lives on the line for us, is this how we treat them?

Also, MAID isn't just offered to people with mental illnesses, it's offered to the general population of those with a disability, be it mental, or physical.  Luckily, the Canada disability act is in the works.  If this benefit becomes a reality and assuming it provides a meaning amount of financial support, maybe our disabled won't have to choose to kill themselves.

[Aristides]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

 

 

For murder, yes.  That's what Genesis 9:6 says.

So it's OK for humans to kill other humans according to human laws but not to control their own lives. Hypocrite.

[TreeBeard]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

If you want a church that doesn't believe or follow the Bible, there it is.

I find the ones that don’t usually have the best morals.  

53 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

 

And if we are ok with that why not handing out the death penalty when it warrants it... 

 

We don’t “hand out” MAID.  People choose it.   If you don’t want it, then don’t choose it.  

[CdnFox]

39 minutes ago, GroundskeeperWillie said:

I've heard that the federal government also offers MAID to war veterans who suffer from certain service-related injuries. It's absolutely shameful.  Our veterans put their lives on the line for us, is this how we treat them?

Also, MAID isn't just offered to people with mental illnesses, it's offered to the general population of those with a disability, be it mental, or physical.  Luckily, the Canada disability act is in the works.  If this benefit becomes a reality and assuming it provides a meaning amount of financial support, maybe our disabled won't have to choose to kill themselves.

I wouldn't hold your breath.

And this is the danger.  that this or future gov'ts will rely in maid INSTEAD of providing adequate services. Which is what we started to see with the vets. Caregivers suggesting maid because there was no care.

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

God is not trying to prevent you from dying

 imagine if this world was the opposite

you never died, you lived forever

see how there would be no meaning in that ?

see how that would be life without purpose ?

every day is a gift for soul making machines

yet there must be a beginning, a middle, and an end therein

otherwise you would not be alive at all, but rather simply an automaton by clockwork

to wit, death is the meaning of life

as only in the face of death ; will you seek love

I agree. But another couple hundred years is alright. Things are just startin to get good. I'm smarter now, more capable, more loving and compassionate. At my age you reach a certain level of mastery, everyone looks up to you and needs you. But I figure got maybe ten years left, or twenty at the most.

So in a way I am ripe for it. Ambrosia. Food for the gods...

 

[GroundskeeperWillie]

2 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

Yes, absolutely we should play God.  If you have pneumonia I want you to play God and save your life with antibiotics.  If you’re suffering from terminal cancer I want you to play God to end your suffering, if you choose.  

 

Those things aren't playing God, IMHO.  They are called receiving medical treatment.

[OftenWrong]

13 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

I wouldn't hold your breath.

And this is the danger.  that this or future gov'ts will rely in maid INSTEAD of providing adequate services. Which is what we started to see with the vets. Caregivers suggesting maid because there was no care.

Right, that is the real concern. Even Blackbird is not so far off with his observation that we may end up with the state "playing god".

Soon enough, some of us may end up in a bed drooling and shittin ourselves. Pretty young nurses will visit twice a day to give you a wipe. You are incoherent and incapable of communicating, but not to worry. Some government chivatto in an office will make that decision for you.

....

In retrospect, I'll take it...

 

 

[GroundskeeperWillie]

34 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

that this or future gov'ts will rely in maid INSTEAD of providing adequate services. 

You summed it up well. This is why the government is pushing MAID on people.

[TreeBeard]

1 hour ago, GroundskeeperWillie said:

Those things aren't playing God, IMHO.  They are called receiving medical treatment.

MAID isn’t playing God then either.  It’s end of life compassionate care.  

[GroundskeeperWillie]

1 hour ago, TreeBeard said:

MAID isn’t playing God then either.  It’s end of life compassionate care.  

I don't care if you call it playing God or something else.  Any time a doctor (or sometimes a bureaucrat) decides whether someone is "fit to die", it's messed up.  

[Zeitgeist]

6 hours ago, eyeball said:

I haven't got a clue, go ask blackbird. You saw what he said, people who choose MAID come short of the glory of God. What else does that mean?  If not eternal damnation then is it just mere purgatory or a simple scolding perhaps?

Suicide is a sin, but the question of consequence isn’t one any of us can answer.  No one knows what’s in someone’s heart, what mental health or biochemical issues or pain someone is enduring.  Judge not lest you be judged.

I do think we’ve strayed from an honest accounting of things on many issues.  Poison is not medicine.  Killing is not treatment.  MAID is putting a bullet in Old Yeller.   It’s what we do to sick animals that people can’t afford to treat. I say this because we do have powerful painkillers and treatments.  Skipping to poisoning someone to death is ultimately giving up.  You can provide euphemistic descriptions and compelling arguments for doing so, but that’s what it is.

As people throw in the towel in greater numbers, it’s hard not to see a general devaluation of life underway.  Suicide and killing are being normalized.

Edited February 1 by Zeitgeist

[Zeitgeist]

3 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

MAID isn’t playing God then either.  It’s end of life compassionate care.  

 

6 hours ago, blackbird said:

If you want a church that doesn't believe or follow the Bible, there it is.

quote

What kind of a church has an atheist pastor?

You’ve probably heard of Gretta Vosper. She’s the minister of West Hill United Church in Scarborough. In 2001 she started describing herself publicly as a “non-theist.” Since 2013 she’s used a more direct term: “atheist.”

As you might expect, the outlandish idea of an atheist minister has captured the imagination of journalists and the praise of many inside and outside the church. It has also provoked substantial criticism, but so far the church has not followed through on calls to remove her from ordained ministry.

In today’s United Church, requiring ministers to believe in God is a controversial idea. So what’s the story behind the United Church of Canada? 

The Long Decline

From the standpoint of the Sixties, this all seemed like a plausible strategy: get rid of old thinking, embrace the world’s progressive causes, and you’ll remain relevant. Stay stuck in your ways, and you’ll be left behind by a rapidly changing society.

Plausible, but wrong. In one of the great ironies of Christian history, churches that followed this strategy lost both members and influence, while churches that took the opposite tack gained both.

Now, the post-1960 era would have been challenging for large mainline churches in any event. North American cultural elites—the gatekeepers of formal education, mass media, government policy—were less friendly than ever before to Christianity. At the same time the power of those elites to shape the thought-world of ordinary people was intensifying, thanks to the arrival of TV, rising rates of high school and university enrollment, and the emergence of a new, rebellious youth culture. A difficult road lay ahead for churches in any event.

The strategy adopted by the United Church made that road much more difficult. On one side, it drove out many members and their families with evangelical convictions—people who were often highly committed churchgoers, givers, and volunteers, the backbone of local congregations. They left for Baptist and Pentecostal and other evangelical churches, many of which are today peppered with ex-United Church members.

On the other side, in speaking to lukewarm or skeptical members, the church was left without a compelling answer to the question—increasingly pressing after 1960—“why should I get my family out of bed to attend church every Sunday?” If the traditional core beliefs of Christianity were psychological metaphors at best and outright lies at worst, and if “the world” had the real answers, why go to church at all? The trickle of escaping evangelicals was thus joined by a large exodus of people who left church altogether.

The result? Between 1968 and 2009 the United Church lost over half its members, during a time in which the Canadian population grew by more than 50%. Over the same period, several evangelical denominations following the opposite strategy, like the Fellowship Baptists, the Mennonite Brethren, and the Pentecostals grew explosively, more than doubling their membership.

 unquote

The United Church of Canada: What You Need to Know - The Gospel Coalition | Canada

You are correct on this.  People want honesty and guidance that calls out bad conduct and promotes good conduct.  They want reverence for God, not cultural appreciation for a myth.  The Muslims understand this with the call to submit to God.  It’s the admission that we are flawed and in need of truth and salvation.

The United Church has become a kind of do your own thing town hall with diminishing membership.  Nothing is required.  There’s a general lack of conviction and necessity.

Edited February 1 by Zeitgeist

[TreeBeard]

2 hours ago, GroundskeeperWillie said:

I don't care if you call it playing God or something else.  Any time a doctor (or sometimes a bureaucrat) decides whether someone is "fit to die", it's messed up.  

Individuals decide if they want to die.  Doctors determine if they’re eligible for assistance to do so give specific criteria.  

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

There’s a general lack of conviction and necessity.

Aren’t you the one who says the Pope was sent by the devil to infiltrate the church, or something like that?