OftenWrong Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 11 minutes ago, Nationalist said: Canada. The land of legalized suicide. Our claim to fame. If you're proud of this, you have serious issues. One thing that's noteworthy, other countries that are currently debating MAID in their parliament are pointing to Canada as a bad example of how NOT to do it. That should tell us something right there, eh? 1 hour ago, blackbird said: Killing is contrary to God's word. I think you're right, since the bible does not cover the issue of MAID. It's a complex, modern issue. I say 'modern' in that we've extended our lives through technology and medicine, where people in the olden days died much younger, and generally quicker. Today we can extend the life of someone who is terminally ill, but what if they don't want that. The reason could be, for example, they are in terrible pain. The quality of their life is low. We may euthanize our dog or cat in these circumstance out of "humaneness". Is that too not a form of mercy? When in doubt, I defer to a position of compassion or mercy. That way if it be a "sin" to euthanize, it was done for compassionate reasons. I guess what I'm asking is, who would Jesus kill? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 (edited) 6 hours ago, blackbird said: Medically-assisted death is killing by the doctor or medical professional. That is state-sanctioned killing. Whether it is MAID or suicide, it is wrong. Still killing. Killing is contrary to God's word. You are dead in trespasses and sins (Romans 3:23) and need to ask God to change you and make you a new creature in Christ. Study the Bible. You’re right. Both are sanctioned by the state. I should have said capital punishment is the state choosing to kill someone, while MAID is the individual choosing for themselves. Still apples and oranges. Are you in favour of the death penalty? Edited January 31 by TreeBeard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 19 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: You’re right. Both are sanctioned by the state. I should have said capital punishment is the state choosing to kill someone, while MAID is the individual choosing for themselves. Still apples and oranges. Are you in favour of the death penalty? God ordered the death penalty for murder in Genesis 9:6 "6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. " That has never been changed to my knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 5 hours ago, OftenWrong said: When in doubt, I defer to a position of compassion or mercy. That way if it be a "sin" to euthanize, it was done for compassionate reasons. Sin can never be justified for any reason. There can also be consequences to going against God's will when we think we are doing the right thing. "The overriding truth that God is sovereign drives us to the conclusion that euthanasia and assisted suicide are wrong. We know that physical death is inevitable for us mortals (Psalm 89:48; Hebrews 9:27). However, God alone is sovereign over when and how a person’s death occurs. Job testifies in Job 30:23, “I know you will bring me down to death, to the place appointed for all the living.” Ecclesiastes 8:8 declares, “No man has power over the wind to contain it; so no one has power over the day of his death.” God has the final say over death (see 1 Corinthians 15:26, 54–56; Hebrews 2:9, 14–15; Revelation 21:4). Euthanasia and assisted suicide are man’s attempts to usurp that authority from God. Death is a natural occurrence. Sometimes God allows a person to suffer for a long time before death occurs; other times, a person’s suffering is cut short. No one enjoys suffering, but that does not make it right to determine that a person should die. Often, God’s purposes are made known through suffering. “When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other” (Ecclesiastes 7:14). Romans 5:3 teaches that tribulations bring about perseverance. God cares about those who cry out for death and wish to end their suffering. God gives purpose in life even to the end. Only God knows what is best, and His timing, even in the matter of one’s death, is perfect. We should never seek to prematurely end a life, but neither must we go to extraordinary means to preserve a life. To actively hasten death is wrong; to passively withhold treatment can also be wrong; but to allow death to occur naturally in a terminally ill person is not necessarily wrong. Anyone facing this issue should pray to God for wisdom (James 1:5). And we should all remember the words of former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop, who warned that the practice of medicine “cannot be both our healer and our killer” (from KOOP, The Memoirs of America’s Family Doctor by C. Everett Koop, M.D., Random House, 1991)." What does the Bible say about euthanasia / assisted suicide? | GotQuestions.org 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 27 minutes ago, blackbird said: God ordered the death penalty for murder in Genesis 9:6 "6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. " That has never been changed to my knowledge. So when you say “killing is contrary to God’s word” you’re wrong. He likes killing as a punishment. God also ordered keeping virgin women as spoils of war. Are you in favour of that too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 (edited) 23 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: So when you say “killing is contrary to God’s word” you’re wrong. He likes killing as a punishment. No, I am not wrong. There is a difference between a general statement about a subject and a specific statement about a particular issue. Killing without a valid reason is wrong. There are exceptions such as self-defence, capital punishment for murder, soldiers defending their country, or police defending themselves or defending the public. Capital punishment means by the state after a credible judicial process (capital). Seems you have difficulty in reasoning such simple subjects or perhaps you are being provocative, i.e. stirring the pot a little. Edited January 31 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 Just now, blackbird said: There is a difference between a general statement about a subject and a specific statement about a particular issue. As a general statement, God is not against killing. He loves it sometimes! He even needed people to sacrifice animals to him. 1 minute ago, blackbird said: Killing without a valid reason is wrong. There are exceptions such as self-defence, capital punishment for murder, soldiers defending their country, or police defending themselves or defending the public. MAID is an exception too. Jesus spoke about mercy and compassions. That’s where MAID aligns with Jesus’ word. Are you for taking virgins as spoils of war, as per God’s command? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 25 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: God also ordered keeping virgin women as spoils of war. Are you in favour of that too? No I would not favour that, but again you are likely referring to something in the Old Testament in specific circumstances that do not exist today. Since we don't know the context or details of it, it is impossible to comment off the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 1 minute ago, TreeBeard said: MAID is an exception too. Jesus spoke about mercy and compassions. That’s where MAID aligns with Jesus’ word. That is completely false. Jesus never condoned mercy killing or euthanasia. You are claiming Jesus authorizes mercy killing under the pretext of mercy and compassion. That is so sick. Where does he specifically say that in the Bible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 35 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: So when you say “killing is contrary to God’s word” you’re wrong. He likes killing as a punishment. I don't think God "likes" killing. God is a merciful and a loving God, but he is also a just God. It should not be hard to understand why capital punishment for murder is stated in Genesis 9:6. As it says God created man in his image. Human life belongs to God. Nobody has the right to end it except in very specific circumstances. Claiming killing for mercy is completely wrong because human life belongs to God and only God has the right to end it. We see the slippery slope happening with MAID where many people think it can be used to escape any situation in life, poverty, homelessness, sickness, depression, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 13 minutes ago, blackbird said: I don't think God "likes" killing. God is a merciful and a loving God, but he is also a just God. He literally designed it so that every single thing in the world would die. I'm pretty sure he's a big fan of it, it's the one thing we all share. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 4 minutes ago, CdnFox said: He literally designed it so that every single thing in the world would die. I'm pretty sure he's a big fan of it, it's the one thing we all share. My objection to god's grand design relates to the second law of thermodynamics actually. That really finishes us all. It's a LAW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 2 minutes ago, OftenWrong said: My objection to god's grand design relates to the second law of thermodynamics actually. That really finishes us all. It's a LAW. LOL - true, it's fair to say that the guy who invented entropy which will take down everything some day isn't afraid of a little death actually kind of puts the whole thing in perspective Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 1 hour ago, blackbird said: Sin can never be justified for any reason. There can also be consequences to going against God's will when we think we are doing the right thing. "The overriding truth that God is sovereign drives us to the conclusion that euthanasia and assisted suicide are wrong. We know that physical death is inevitable for us mortals (Psalm 89:48; Hebrews 9:27). However, God alone is sovereign over when and how a person’s death occurs. Job testifies in Job 30:23, “I know you will bring me down to death, to the place appointed for all the living.” Ecclesiastes 8:8 declares, “No man has power over the wind to contain it; so no one has power over the day of his death.” God has the final say over death (see 1 Corinthians 15:26, 54–56; Hebrews 2:9, 14–15; Revelation 21:4). Euthanasia and assisted suicide are man’s attempts to usurp that authority from God. Death is a natural occurrence. Sometimes God allows a person to suffer for a long time before death occurs; other times, a person’s suffering is cut short. No one enjoys suffering, but that does not make it right to determine that a person should die. Often, God’s purposes are made known through suffering. “When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other” (Ecclesiastes 7:14). Romans 5:3 teaches that tribulations bring about perseverance. God cares about those who cry out for death and wish to end their suffering. God gives purpose in life even to the end. Only God knows what is best, and His timing, even in the matter of one’s death, is perfect. We should never seek to prematurely end a life, but neither must we go to extraordinary means to preserve a life. To actively hasten death is wrong; to passively withhold treatment can also be wrong; but to allow death to occur naturally in a terminally ill person is not necessarily wrong. Anyone facing this issue should pray to God for wisdom (James 1:5). And we should all remember the words of former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop, who warned that the practice of medicine “cannot be both our healer and our killer” (from KOOP, The Memoirs of America’s Family Doctor by C. Everett Koop, M.D., Random House, 1991)." What does the Bible say about euthanasia / assisted suicide? | GotQuestions.org I appreciate your detailed response. I looked up those bible references but they do not appear to be about mercy killing. As far as I know, the concept of mercy killing does not appear in the bible. But I am no scholar. Following your link, these arguments are based on bible quoted that appear to question how to avoid death, not embrace it. No man can avoid death, hence god has the final say. To claim that suffering is good for the person is a value judgement, it doesn't say that in the bible and doesn't necessarily apply in every case. Else we could argue that suffering can be used to educate us in our morals, which takes us down a dark road of self-flagellation and justifies inquisition. We have certainly moved on from that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 1 hour ago, blackbird said: No I would not favour that, but again you are likely referring to something in the Old Testament in specific circumstances that do not exist today. Your reference to the death penalty is out of the Old Testament. There are certainly wars today. Why not take the virgin women? 1 hour ago, blackbird said: You are claiming Jesus authorizes mercy killing under the pretext of mercy and compassion. Absolutely. It matches Jesus’ intentions, if you interpret it that way. 1 hour ago, blackbird said: Where does he specifically say that in the Bible? Plenty of passages discuss mercy and God being merciful and compassionate. Ending suffering is a mercy. 7 Blessed are the merciful, iFor they shall obtain mercy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 10 hours ago, blackbird said: The Bible says you are dead in your trespasses and sins. "23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; " Romans 3:23 So the Bible says God throws everyone who chooses MAID into Hell so they can burn in pain for eternity. What a charmer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 (edited) 12 minutes ago, eyeball said: So the Bible says God throws everyone who chooses MAID into Hell so they can burn in pain for eternity. What a charmer. But He loves them. Edited January 31 by TreeBeard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 (edited) 21 minutes ago, eyeball said: So the Bible says God throws everyone who chooses MAID into Hell so they can burn in pain for eternity. What a charmer. No, that is not what I said. God is merciful and just. He is willing to forgive all those who repent and come to him by accepting his Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus is the mediator between God and men. We are fallen sinners and need the Savior. We must choose God's ways by humbly accepting his word, the Bible, in English the King James Bible 1611. Some things are hard to understand in the Bible, but many things are straight forward. The New Testament is the place to start. Edited January 31 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 1 minute ago, blackbird said: God is merciful That’s why He approves of MAID. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 8 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: That’s why He approves of MAID. Do you have any verses to prove that? Of course not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 3 minutes ago, blackbird said: Do you have any verses to prove that? Of course not. Do you have anything that confirms your assertion people who chose MAID still get to go to heaven just as readily as anyone else in God's good graces? If it's just a case of God needing to throw a little red meat out for the base by giving people who choose MAID a stern look on the way in then so-be-it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 16 minutes ago, blackbird said: Do you have any verses to prove that? Of course not. That Jesus is merciful and compassionate? I have a lot of passages about that! In John 15 there is no greater love than to sacrifice yourself for your friends. MAID is like that. A sacrifice to end your own suffering for you and your loved ones. Jesus approves. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herbie Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 23 hours ago, TreeBeard said: The folks who cannot make rational decisions are not eligible for MAID. Sorry, the original headlines sucked me in too. Looked into this more last night and the discussion was on MAID for mental suffering - one example someone with terrible PTSD for years. As this is recognized as a mental illness, it was lumped in so the headlines could be more alarming. Mental anguish, not mental disability. I don't know what to think about that, could someone's addiction cause them so much anguish they'd consider MAID? I'm sure some people in that situation just took care of it themselves. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 2 hours ago, eyeball said: So the Bible says God throws everyone who chooses MAID into Hell so they can burn in pain for eternity. What a charmer. Where does it say that? No one can judge a person, only actions. No one knows someone’s heart, motives, struggles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 (edited) 1 hour ago, TreeBeard said: That Jesus is merciful and compassionate? I have a lot of passages about that! In John 15 there is no greater love than to sacrifice yourself for your friends. MAID is like that. A sacrifice to end your own suffering for you and your loved ones. Jesus approves. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. I agree. If the homeless population and the elderly agreed to MAID, it would save so much money for Canada. I am sure that we can all agree that there is nothing worse than seeing a person suffer, especially a loved one with dementia. However, what about a person with mental health issues and drug addiction that wants to die? Why are they not eligible? I am willing to bet that if Canada erected MAID stations at homeless shelters and addiction treatment centres, at least 20% would consider MAID. Edited January 31 by DUI_Offender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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