Will eliminating vaccine mandates and vaccine passports reduce the freedom for the majority?

[betsy]

There is no common sense to  how covid is being handled by our leaders.......if it is dangerous as they say it is!

 

Like,

why can't they even tell parents in Ontario if there is an outbreak in their school (unless it reaches 30% absences)!  heck, what does that mean?  You deprive parents of their choice by witholding information, if they want to take the chance for their kindergarten (who really knows squat about  safety protocols) to picking covid in school and bringing it home to them!

 

What the leaders are doing is really also hurting our economy big-time, and it's not preventing covid from spreading!

Edited February 6, 2022 by betsy

[Michael Hardner]

12 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

It doesn't remove freedom for the vaccinated, it just increases risk.

Right, but they're greater risk means that I have to moderate my behaviour for a longer period.

[OftenWrong]

20 hours ago, Nationalist said:

How do the abortion supporters square this with their main argument? 

Is it not really my body now?

Is it the government's call, or the person's. Their family, their physician.

Not DoFo, and old man river...

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Right, but they're greater risk means that I have to moderate my behaviour for a longer period.

Perhaps true but sounds pretty 'moderate' to me. You need to moderate your behaviour. We can be trained to minimize exposure to one another even without masking. Masking was not good the way we did it. Breathing techniques, speaking techniques, body positioning relative to others make more difference than blindly masking the ignorant.

I prefer that we pay for more health care services, research into lowering transmission and also to be prepared for future outbreaks. Something we didn't do the last time during SARS-1.

Despite much government bravado and grandstanding...

and despite the pathetic taxation system in Canada and costly, bloated bureaucracy. The health care system is filled with overpaid executive types. The administration in hospitals needs to be culled. Demolish their office spaces and rebuild them into useful covid/influenza wards.

Edited February 6, 2022 by OftenWrong

[Michael Hardner]

22 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

1. Perhaps true but sounds pretty 'moderate' to me. You need to moderate your behaviour.  

2. The health care system is filled with overpaid executive types. The administration in hospitals needs to be culled. Demolish their office spaces and rebuild them into useful covid/influenza wards.

1. Right, because your individual right to refuse a vaccine trumps my right to live at low risk, mostly because you are you and not me.

2. I would love to talk about restructuring the health system, but you are showing up at the discussion with recommendations in hand.  Not a good way to start a discussion.  I agree that there are likely administration improvements out there, but please let's not oversimplify.

[OftenWrong]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Right, because your individual right to refuse a vaccine trumps my right to live at low risk, mostly because you are you and not me.

2. I would love to talk about restructuring the health system, but you are showing up at the discussion with recommendations in hand.  Not a good way to start a discussion.  I agree that there are likely administration improvements out there, but please let's not oversimplify.

1. Look at the consequence of being imposed upon in both cases. I don't care if you want to vaccinate or not, but it disturbs me that we are creating a separate underclass.

I know people who make other "bad" choices, ones that are real bad not just controversially bad like not getting these injections. Heroin users, alcohol abusers are but one example. Their bad choices are looked upon with compassion but the choices others make are being treated quite differently. Some of these anti-vaxxers are people with poor mental health, for example and they have a lot of fear. While I support using education and discussion other options, use of government imposed sanctions on people who are more vulnerable seems wrong to me.

That's why I am willing to pay more for their health care, just as I support health care for junkies. Psychological services is a whole other avenue of improvement in this, your brave new world.

...

I don't feel like discussing health care with you, because you probably need to have everything proven. I've done that with links before showing the amount of money paid to hospital administration in the past twenty years, while the level of available beds has gone drastically down. That deficit has been a problem for years leading up to coronavirus, and added to our inability to cope with the inevitable outbreak.

[Michael Hardner]

15 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

1. it disturbs me that we are creating a separate underclass.

2. Their bad choices are looked upon with compassion but the choices others make are being treated quite differently.

3. Some of these anti-vaxxers are people with poor mental health, for example and they have a lot of fear.  

4. I don't feel like discussing health care with you, because you probably need to have everything proven. I've done that with links before showing the amount of money paid to hospital administration in the past twenty years, while the level of available beds has gone drastically down. 

1. You perceive it as an underclass?  Well that's your issue.

2. I look upon them, and drug addicts with compassion.  Public health is charged with getting them healthy.

3. They hate that term FYI.

4. No, I really don't.  I don't remember you posting links on that, but that's good to hear.  FYI I work in middle management and have had a small amount of experience dealing with government and healthcare so I have strong opinions here.

 

[Infidel Dog]

13 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

Is it fair to put the burden only on those who are willing to do all they can to be safe?   Isn’t this why we mandate car insurance and seatbelts and a host of other things?  To “force” people to live in a society together and share the burden?

Insurance is a risk/reward thing. You don't mandate house insurance or life insurance, just car insurance. Why is that?

Government was able to mandate seatbelts and motorcycle helmets so why not mandate controls for obesity then? Could I say that?

Apparently different things require different rules even for Government and the governed.

But...if you really want to compare what you're calling a "vaccine" to seatbelts, let's do it.

First of all there's natural immunity. New Harvard, Yale & Stanford Data Show 4 Out of 5 Americans Have Covid ‘Natural Immunity’. I imagine that's similar to natural immunity for Canadians.

There's a recent Johns Hopkins study that found natural immunity can remain strong for up to 21 months. That study also said this:

Quote

Makary responded that while the vaccines are good against severe disease, antibodies are seen to diminish within a few months, but that “with natural immunity, that protection was better. It’s more durable, and that’s consistent with what the CDC found.”

Anything about not wearing seatbelts that compares to that? Risk/Reward.

What about adverse affects? Are there adverse effects to seatbelts that might compare to those of the mRNA jab? I say no, but we can debate that if you like.

The vaccinated transmit and can be infected by the virus as easily as the unjabbed. Using today's Omicron numbers there's no reason to believe you're in much greater danger of being infected by a jabbed or an unjabbed person. So does that equate with your seatbelt analogy as far as risk/reward?

And yes, I know the vaccine has some therapeutic effect that can decrease symptoms but that also gives the jabbed confidence to deal with it in public rather than self-isolate. The unjabbed have to be more careful. I know I'm going nowhere after my first sniffle. And in Canada there are at least 4 times more jabbed than unjabbed to worry about. Israel is over 90% jabbed and their infection rate at its peak was the highest in the world.

Seatbelts have years of statistical evidence showing the danger of not wearing them has greater societal damage than wearing them. The "vaccine" has never been tested over time and some believe it may damage the immune system over the long term. Is there a danger of future damage with seat belts? Risk/Reward.

There's an abundance of evidence showing the societal damage of mandates and lockdowns in general is greater than living free of them. 

I could go on and we could discuss things like possible relief from things like Ivermectin, Hydroxychloroquine and fluvoxomine if they were accessible or the belief you can improve your chances of surviving the coof with vitamins, quercetin, curcumin, Zinc and such but I think you get the point.

The idea Seatbelts = the mRNA jab is bogus. You'd have to capitalize the FALSE in false equivalency. 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by Infidel Dog

[OftenWrong]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

FYI I work in middle management and have had a small amount of experience dealing with government and healthcare so I have strong opinions here.

That's nice, so do I. I had a friend who drove an ambulance once. Well, patient mobility really.

[Army Guy]

12 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

Is it fair to put the burden only on those who are willing to do all they can to be safe?   Isn’t this why we mandate car insurance and seatbelts and a host of other things?  To “force” people to live in a society together and share the burden?

That is true, but insurance and seat belts have not cost 450 bil and climbing in just 3 years , god knows what this has cost business, or people. 

[TreeBeard]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

That is true, but insurance and seat belts have not cost 450 bil and climbing in just 3 years , god knows what this has cost business, or people. 

What would the costs have been if hospitals were further overwhelmed than they were?

[TreeBeard]

3 hours ago, Infidel Dog said:

You don't mandate house insurance or life insurance, just car insurance. Why is that?

Clearly, because you are more likely to harm other people with a car.  Your only risk with your house is your own financial ruin.

Is COVID a communicable virus that you can harm others with?  

Seems like COVID is more like a car than a house, yes?

[Infidel Dog]

1 hour ago, TreeBeard said:

Clearly, because you are more likely to harm other people with a car.  Your only risk with your house is your own financial ruin.

Is COVID a communicable virus that you can harm others with?  

Seems like COVID is more like a car than a house, yes?

Seems to me like you either didn't read or want to ignore the rest of the post where the concept of harm was dealt with.

 

Not to worry. Go ahead...mention it again like you don't know what I'm talking about. We can go into greater detail.

[Army Guy]

20 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

What would the costs have been if hospitals were further overwhelmed than they were?

You tell me what the cost would be, I did say that there were other methods to tackling this entire pandemic, our solution was to throw money at it, from start to finish, and they are still not done with the throwing the money around part. 

[Zeitgeist]

On 2/6/2022 at 9:43 AM, Michael Hardner said:

1. Right, because your individual right to refuse a vaccine trumps my right to live at low risk, mostly because you are you and not me.

2. I would love to talk about restructuring the health system, but you are showing up at the discussion with recommendations in hand.  Not a good way to start a discussion.  I agree that there are likely administration improvements out there, but please let's not oversimplify.

Get real.  The vaccine is there to protect you.  I assume you’re triple vaccinated and wear masks when you’re driving by yourself.  Stop making everyone else stop living normal lives because of your over the top need for personal security.  

[TreeBeard]

23 hours ago, Infidel Dog said:

Seems to me like you either didn't read or want to ignore the rest of the post where the concept of harm was dealt with.

 

Not to worry. Go ahead...mention it again like you don't know what I'm talking about. We can go into greater detail.

Vaccine conspiracies just don’t interest me, so I don’t bother responding to them.

[Infidel Dog]

6 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

Vaccine conspiracies just don’t interest me, so I don’t bother responding to them.

Sorry bud but everything in that post is mainstream or common sense verified. If you're afraid to see the one and incapable of the other don't go pretending you're the one with the point.

[TreeBeard]

2 hours ago, Infidel Dog said:

everything in that post is mainstream or common sense verified

It is?

Quote

possible relief from things like Ivermectin, Hydroxychloroquine

 

[Infidel Dog]

2 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

It is?

 

Of course. 

You brought it up though, so let's have a look at the whole sentence for context:

Quote

I could go on and we could discuss things like possible relief from things like Ivermectin, Hydroxychloroquine and fluvoxomine if they were accessible or the belief you can improve your chances of surviving the coof with vitamins, quercetin, curcumin, Zinc and such but I think you get the point.

The idea Seatbelts = the mRNA jab is bogus. You'd have to capitalize the FALSE in false equivalency. 

So yes the idea we could leave the long list of hard facts and get into more debateable areas like those mentioned wasn't necessary and that was common sense - just as I told you. 

Unnecessary because the point seat belt laws are nothing like vaccine mandates had already been proven. You know that, of course. That's why you're trying so hard to divert with a distorted cherry pick.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Infidel Dog

[Nationalist]

On 2/6/2022 at 1:10 AM, TreeBeard said:

Do you think the issue of the virus being easily transmissible makes it a little different than skydiving, or something else that could only harm yourself?

Also, individual safety is mandated all the time, isn’t it?  Helmets?  Seatbelts?  Steel toed boots?

When was the last time someone injected a helmet into your body? Never?

Go home.

[Yzermandius19]

On 2/6/2022 at 9:43 AM, Michael Hardner said:

1. Right, because your individual right to refuse a vaccine trumps my right to live at low risk, mostly because you are you and not me.

right because your non-existant right to get sick from covid slightly less trumps individuals rights to refuse a vaccine

the benefit you gain is not worth the loss of others freedoms

yet you put your gain over their loss even though you gain hardly anything and they lose their freedoms

the only way to do that

is by valuing their freedoms less than your conveniences

or you are valuing them considerably less than yourself

either way, that paints your sense of priorities in a bad light

Edited February 8, 2022 by Yzermandius19

[Accountability Now]

On 2/6/2022 at 7:43 AM, Michael Hardner said:

1. Right, because your individual right to refuse a vaccine trumps my right to live at low risk, mostly because you are you and not me.

Except you are at the same risk being next to a vaccinated (even triple doser) as it has been shown vaxx spread it the same as unvaxxed. Actually being in a space with only vaccinated people would technically be higher as your false sense of security would lull you into thinking you are protected from spread when we know that is not the case.

[Michael Hardner]

20 minutes ago, Accountability Now said:

1. Except you are at the same risk being next to a vaccinated (even triple doser) as it has been shown vaxx spread it the same as unvaxxed.  

1. No this is not right.  Here's a reputable source telling you that you are wrong - so I expect you as a conscientious poster will stop spreading that non-fact.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2021/12/vaccinated-who-get-breakthrough-infections-less-contagious/

[Accountability Now]

9 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. No this is not right.  Here's a reputable source telling you that you are wrong - so I expect you as a conscientious poster will stop spreading that non-fact.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2021/12/vaccinated-who-get-breakthrough-infections-less-contagious/

Thank you for sharing an article that was posted BEFORE Omicron. I expect a conscientious poster would have their facts straight

[Michael Hardner]

21 minutes ago, Accountability Now said:

Thank you for sharing an article that was posted BEFORE Omicron. I expect a conscientious poster would have their facts straight

Hey man - I gave you 30 seconds of research for your post, please forgive the error.  What I should have done instead is asked you for a cite.

Do you have one ?