Ontario needs to invest in EVs as a realistic Option.

[Michael Hardner]

31 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

1. Just because you feel you are doing well and doing the right things, is not important to the discussion at all.

 

1. You are incorrect. To say that because there are problems, it's not important to try to be ethical is a non-starter.

As for Globalists, they don't exist.  What exists is Global neoliberal capitalism.  It too has problems, but it is pretty much bought into as the way forward.  The idea that the left is somehow associated with it is bonkers.  And the real hypocrisy is with the pro business populists who pretend they're against it.

 

[Army Guy]

On 8/30/2021 at 9:51 AM, Boges said:

Not true. Because you can no charge your car at home when you're sleeping. 

EVs only weakness is on long roadtrips. And that's quickly changing. For daily commutes, joy rides, or daily errand running, an EV is a much more appealing option. 

As you say, you have to plan and locate DC Superchargers, as opposed to filling up at a gas station. 

There are a couple of charging stations available on the market right now, level one ( the most common)which is 110 Volts enough to charge your car over night provided you have not put on more than 40 to 50 kms per day...if it is more then you will not get a complete over night charge, a completely dry battery takes 3 full days to charge...

Stage 2 which is 220 volts which comes at a higher cost and a modification to your homes electrical grid...is able to charge a battery over night from empty, but local power grids as they are right now only allow a few per street as they draw to much power, meaning not everyone on your street can or will be allowed to put these in their homes...As our current power infra structure will not allow it...

Quote

 

So she uses a slower Level 1 charger. If the car battery is ever drained, it takes about three days to return it to a full charge. Nelson, who loves her electric car, has found workarounds. But she recognizes that poor charging infrastructure could impede others who want to ditch their gas guzzlers. 

She says various levels of government have a role to play in updating the country's power infrastructure and making sure neighbourhoods can support quickly charging vehicles like hers in almost every driveway. 

 

Canada's electricity grid will need substantial changes to help achieve net zero: report | CBC News

* note watch the video in the center of the article it provides more info on the topic...

No charging spots and a strained electrical grid. Welcome to the electric vehicle boom. - Macleans.ca

even super chargers are along your route MacLean's sources say they charge at the rate of 50 KM range per hour.. not very fast if your planning to drive two provinces over, it's going to take a few days , maybe thats what we need to slow down and take our time, my point is EV are here but they have a huge ladder to climb before taking over from ICE vehs...and there is still lots of things to over come, lack of infra structure is a huge one, next is commuter miles here in NB i travel more than 50 KM a day, throw in getting food, going to the mall etc and 100 kms a day is easy .. now i know guys in work in Toronto and travel much father than that, so EV may not be for ever one just yet...

That being said i have taken out a F-150 EV, for a test drive, you can't beat it for torque and power, even pulling a trailer, it handles like a expensive sports car with incredible take off power, it has a range of 600 to 800 kms. depending on how cold it is...and the engine compartment or where it was is a huge storage space larger than an extra large car truck...and i will say when they stop making ICE vehs in the near future i will gladly get one...hopefully by then things would have improved...

Edited June 19 by Army Guy

[herbie]

No, I don't think there's any chance of fully charging an F150 Lighnting overnight on 110V. The guy who owns the tiny little Chevy Volt says it's more like 12 hours on his. My friend's Mitsubishi PHEV easily charges fully overnight on 110V. He only uses gas maybe once a week if he ventures out of town.

But the Level 2 is as uncomplicated as installig a 220V stove beside the fact you want to do it in your garage or outside, that will require a new long run from your panel, or more than likely a new subpanel. I needed one of those for my addition a few years ago, not cheap.

- A shipment of VinFast EVs has arrived in Nanaimo BC. Dropping off over 800 cars for the Vancouver Island market.

-Tesla offering new buyers free fast charges

-VW Tiguan PHEV will offer 100km range on battery. You'll only burn gas on a major road trip!

 

[Army Guy]

2 hours ago, herbie said:

No, I don't think there's any chance of fully charging an F150 Lighnting overnight on 110V. The guy who owns the tiny little Chevy Volt says it's more like 12 hours on his. My friend's Mitsubishi PHEV easily charges fully overnight on 110V. He only uses gas maybe once a week if he ventures out of town.

But the Level 2 is as uncomplicated as installig a 220V stove beside the fact you want to do it in your garage or outside, that will require a new long run from your panel, or more than likely a new subpanel. I needed one of those for my addition a few years ago, not cheap.

- A shipment of VinFast EVs has arrived in Nanaimo BC. Dropping off over 800 cars for the Vancouver Island market.

-Tesla offering new buyers free fast charges

-VW Tiguan PHEV will offer 100km range on battery. You'll only burn gas on a major road trip!

 

The sources do not talk about the F-150, but rather the most common EV, it also mentions that a level one charger will NOT charge an empty battery in 12 hours....it states 3 days for a full charge...while a level 2 charger charges at 50 KM per hour...which means long distance driving would be very restrictive in KMs driven per day... 

It also mentions that most homes are not paneled to accept more than a couple of 220 / 30 amp outlets. plus it also mentions that while it is possible to have a new panel put into your home, your local infra structure will not allow more than a couple per street...I've read this in other sources as well... meaning you may be out of luck to even have a level 2 charger in your home until the local infra structure is upgraded...This is just a question have you heard of any serious funding of new infrastructure in your area, because i have not heard anything in mine...The articles do mention that the current infra structure will have to be doubled or tripled in capacity to ensure it can meet our needs not only for EV chargers, but other utilities such as electrical heat pumps, etc...

Yes Telsa may be offering free level 2 chargers, but once again getting it hooked up will be costly, as well your local infra structure may or may not be able to handle your new level 2 charger...which would be a problem, meaning your restricted to driving less than 50 kms per day , for your 12 hour charge on a level one charger....and for some thats great, but alot of Canadians drive more than that each way to go to work...thats another problem...meaning your still burning gas in your PHEV...

It is not as simple as everyone thinks...

 

[herbie]

No, you're only gonna get the first 50km on electricity, nothing's restricting you after that. I should hope to God no one's trying to promote a pure electric that only gets that. Even the old EV1s from the 1990s had a range of just over 100 miles-160km.

Plugin hybrids have no problem at 110V, the little p!sspots do ok. Jim uses his Bolt to go to and from work, charges overnight and on the weekend mainly uses the farm pickup while the Bolt stays plugged in.

[Boges]

15 hours ago, Army Guy said:

The sources do not talk about the F-150, but rather the most common EV, it also mentions that a level one charger will NOT charge an empty battery in 12 hours....it states 3 days for a full charge...while a level 2 charger charges at 50 KM per hour...which means long distance driving would be very restrictive in KMs driven per day... 

It also mentions that most homes are not paneled to accept more than a couple of 220 / 30 amp outlets. plus it also mentions that while it is possible to have a new panel put into your home, your local infra structure will not allow more than a couple per street...I've read this in other sources as well... meaning you may be out of luck to even have a level 2 charger in your home until the local infra structure is upgraded...This is just a question have you heard of any serious funding of new infrastructure in your area, because i have not heard anything in mine...The articles do mention that the current infra structure will have to be doubled or tripled in capacity to ensure it can meet our needs not only for EV chargers, but other utilities such as electrical heat pumps, etc...

Yes Telsa may be offering free level 2 chargers, but once again getting it hooked up will be costly, as well your local infra structure may or may not be able to handle your new level 2 charger...which would be a problem, meaning your restricted to driving less than 50 kms per day , for your 12 hour charge on a level one charger....and for some thats great, but alot of Canadians drive more than that each way to go to work...thats another problem...meaning your still burning gas in your PHEV...

It is not as simple as everyone thinks...

 

If you have an electric Dryer you can have a Stage 2 charger. I got one set up in my Townhouse. 

It'll cost a few hundred dollars to set one up with an electrician. But it's a valuable home improvement feature as you can now accommodate an EV, which will only get more popular in the coming years. I bought my charger off of Amazon, it's a pretty simple device. 

It's just conjecture to assume that more than a few people charging their EVs at night will crash the grid. 

 

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, Boges said:

If you have an electric Dryer you can have a Stage 2 charger. I got one set up in my Townhouse. 

That is BLATANTLY not true.

This IS an area i'm expert in and the vast majority of stratas are NOT able to provide everyone with a stage 2 charger on their grid. The power systems cannot handle it.  People occasionally put one in without telling anyone but once the policy has been set by council they may be forced to rip them out and may face heavy fines.  If your townhouse allows it now they will have a serious problem when a decent percent of owners have ev's.

Most stratas don't allow ev chargers unless there's a power plan in place (costs a couple of grand) and even then many don't for now.

You can stretch it out a little by doing a proper electrical assessment and implementing load balancing systems across the strata/condo but as it stands very few places will be able to offer everyone chargers without massive upgrades to not only the buildings but the local grid.

Even WITHOUT ev's most provinces are short on power. BC - with its massive hydroelectricity and having just completed the site c dam, is expected to be short of power in 5 years as is. 

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/bc-hydro-set-to-start-first-hunt-in-15-years-for-new-electricity-sources-1.6443116

 and even if there WERE enough power the local grids can't handle the load.

So no - what you said about everybody being able to get a charger is NOT true, it's not true now and it certainly won't be true in the near future. SOME might - but not all and i doubt even most.  People who own their own homes can but even then there's goign to be power problems if more and more people do it.

[Boges]

6 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

That is BLATANTLY not true.

This IS an area i'm expert in and the vast majority of stratas are NOT able to provide everyone with a stage 2 charger on their grid. The power systems cannot handle it.  People occasionally put one in without telling anyone but once the policy has been set by council they may be forced to rip them out and may face heavy fines.  If your townhouse allows it now they will have a serious problem when a decent percent of owners have ev's.

Most stratas don't allow ev chargers unless there's a power plan in place (costs a couple of grand) and even then many don't for now.

You can stretch it out a little by doing a proper electrical assessment and implementing load balancing systems across the strata/condo but as it stands very few places will be able to offer everyone chargers without massive upgrades to not only the buildings but the local grid.

Even WITHOUT ev's most provinces are short on power. BC - with its massive hydroelectricity and having just completed the site c dam, is expected to be short of power in 5 years as is. 

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/bc-hydro-set-to-start-first-hunt-in-15-years-for-new-electricity-sources-1.6443116

 and even if there WERE enough power the local grids can't handle the load.

So no - what you said about everybody being able to get a charger is NOT true, it's not true now and it certainly won't be true in the near future. SOME might - but not all and i doubt even most.  People who own their own homes can but even then there's goign to be power problems if more and more people do it.

People are charging overnight. 

My EV uses comparable Hydro to my AC during peak periods of the year. 

This is fear mongering. 

Edited June 20 by Boges

[Army Guy]

1 hour ago, Boges said:

 

If you have an electric Dryer you can have a Stage 2 charger. I got one set up in my Townhouse. 

It'll cost a few hundred dollars to set one up with an electrician. But it's a valuable home improvement feature as you can now accommodate an EV, which will only get more popular in the coming years. I bought my charger off of Amazon, it's a pretty simple device. 

It's just conjecture to assume that more than a few people charging their EVs at night will crash the grid. 

 

So your saying the articles are wrong, Can i ask if your an electrician, or contractor ? the reason i ask is becasue the more i research it the more i find that our current electrical infra structure can not handle more than a few level 2 charges on the same transformer...(and depending on how many amps your level 2 charger is, they come in 30 amps to 80 amps, depending on how fast you want them to charge).... and up to 6 level 1 transformers... providing they are charging in after hours time frame, start charging in peak hours and that all goes out the window...

I'm not saying you can't purchase a charger, or have it installed.... i will tell you it is going to cost more than a couple hundred bucks, and if your panel is a fair distance from your garage then expect that cost to be more... i had a ponie panel put in for my generator, and it cost me 1500.00 and my panel was right next to it...

How many electric cars can the grid take? Depends on your neighborhood | Ars Technica

Lets not forget that our current grid still contains coal fire plants, the rest are fossil fuel with a low percentage coming from renewables, and a few Nuclear plants, all of which is part of our electrical grid and all of it needs to be upgraded... all before 2035 which is when the liberals say no new ICE vehicles will be sold... I don't see that happening as they have not kept a time line yet...  

 

[herbie]

1 hour ago, Boges said:

This is fear mongering. 

No this is foxy spewing shit once again just to troll. Of course you can install a 220 outlet in your own house.
Acting like tomorrow morning everyone will be charging their new EV when you can't even buy one without waiting for ages like an East German for a new Trabant.

Just like the prevalent attitude that they can't and aren't adding more electrical production every day. You're supposed to believe they're gonna build a windfarm and instantly switch the existing power plant right off.
Think like Joe American - you can't make alcohol out of anything except corn, you can't make electricity out of anything but coal. 100,000 ICE vehicles pollute less than a coal fired plant charging 100,000 EVs.

[CdnFox]

6 hours ago, Boges said:

People are charging overnight. 

My EV uses comparable Hydro to my AC during peak periods of the year. 

This is fear mongering. 

this is fact, and i have dozens of reports to prove it.

Sorry - you're not "sort of" wrong here - you're DEAD wrong, plain and simple.

Before there can be any chance of everyone having a charging port the vast majority of facilities will need extensive upgrades AND the power grid itself will as well AND our ability to generate power will have to go up one  way or another.

[Perspektiv]

On 6/20/2023 at 7:44 PM, CdnFox said:

Before there can be any chance of everyone having a charging port the vast majority of facilities will need extensive upgrades AND the power grid itself will as well AND our ability to generate power will have to go up one  way or another.

 Not only this, but the charging infrastructure needs to be upgraded, too.

The US where road trips are king, are a prime example of where this is needed.

I have driven plenty of EVs and have encountered the issues many complain about.

IE the many proprietary charging stations, requiring me to download multiple apps, the multiple payment options. The malfunctioning of chargers, all are real issues that I myself have faced multiple times. The frustration at being at a high voltage charger, and yet still taking nearly an hour to charge to 80%. 

"Yeah, but most charge at home, overnight" to me is a non entrepreneurial mind at work.

You aren't worried about who bought into your technology already. You are seeking to sell this to who potentially could. The reason Tesla focused on making beautiful vehicles.

For this, this infrastructure is critical.

EVs are becoming more affordable, and many car owners won't have the luxury of being home owners where a state of the art plug could be added.

Couple this with copper shortages that will be a looming threat to this technology within a decade.

When one is trying to push new technology, a woke approach is not the wisest. One must be heavily pragmatic. Especially when the electrical power grid is concerned. One which has in many places been overwhelmed as is, during lengthy summer heat waves.

Its like people pushing for MAGLEV trains, when rail costs a mere percentile of the cost and is efficient in its own way.

[OftenWrong]

On 6/19/2023 at 9:44 PM, Army Guy said:

It also mentions that most homes are not paneled to accept more than a couple of 220 / 30 amp outlets. plus it also mentions that while it is possible to have a new panel put into your home, your local infra structure will not allow more than a couple per street...I've read this in other sources as well... meaning you may be out of luck to even have a level 2 charger in your home until the local infra structure is upgraded...This is just a question have you heard of any serious funding of new infrastructure in your area, because i have not heard anything in mine...The articles do mention that the current infra structure will have to be doubled or tripled in capacity to ensure it can meet our needs not only for EV chargers, but other utilities such as electrical heat pumps, etc...

That's the main issue, and the problem is bigger than just the wiring on your street. The overall power generation of the province has to be increased, possibly doubled or tripled. Essentially all the energy from petroleum, which is a high energy density fuel has to be replaced by electrical power generators. A very large amount of power is needed. The only clean source of sustained high-power that can be added is nuclear, and these things cost untold billions and take decades to build.

The new paradigm is SMRs, or "Small Modular Reactors" that futurists envision as sprinkled in every community. A little plutonium here, a little U-235 there. These power plants are the size of a large factory building, rather than massive complexes like Pickering or Bruce. But SMR's still have problems. They may not present a hazard on a planetary scale like Chernobyl, but the effect of a meltdown would be quite serious, though more local. You'll see some outcry from the "not in my neighbourhood" types. They present a security hazard as well since they become a target for terrorism, just as the big facilities need security against that. That's ok, every neighbourhood should have their own surface-to-air missile silos anyway. Ask the folks living near Zaphorozizia. They produce nuclear waste that to date cannot be recycled, only sequestered and it presents a hazard to the environment for thousands of years. Even after our civilization is gone. The production of nuclear fuel creates hazardous toxic substances that pollute the environment as well.

There is no free lunch. Bigger issue is when are we going to start making them, if we are serious about banning sales of ICE vehicles in a mere few years.

Answer, we're not serious about it. Hair boy is just stroking himself.  

Edited June 22 by OftenWrong

[herbie]

Telus and Aussie EV charger Jolt to build up to 5,000 charging stations across Canada

https://financialpost.com/commodities/energy/electric-vehicles/telus-jolt-5000-ev-charging-stations-canada

- The BC gov't is adding charging stations at highway rest stops, 24 so far

- PetroCan fast chargers are pegged at 50 cents per minute

[Perspektiv]

2 hours ago, herbie said:

Telus and Aussie EV charger Jolt to build up to 5,000 charging stations across Canada

https://financialpost.com/commodities/energy/electric-vehicles/telus-jolt-5000-ev-charging-stations-canada

- The BC gov't is adding charging stations at highway rest stops, 24 so far

- PetroCan fast chargers are pegged at 50 cents per minute

Nice, another app.

Gas stations have it right. Every single one operates the same. 

Pay at the pump, fuel. Drive off. Nozzles are all the same. Very simple. Diesel, or regular fuel in 3 grades.

Beautiful.

[herbie]

Don't worry. Shell will find a way to sell you 'premium' electricity.

New Shell Voltz with added Electonz....

[herbie]

BC has now reached the point where EVs account for 20% of new vehicle sales, one in 5. Almost as high as national figures for pickups - 1 in 4.

BC is also pushing for higher EV numbers in commercial trucks as replacing one large diesel rig = CO2 reduction from 56 passenger EVs.
Obviously that would be 'last mile' in town delivery trucks at first, which would also greatly improve air quality in cities. An estimated 15,000 people die in Canada every year from issues related to air quality.

[Aristides]

3 hours ago, herbie said:

BC has now reached the point where EVs account for 20% of new vehicle sales, one in 5. Almost as high as national figures for pickups - 1 in 4.

BC is also pushing for higher EV numbers in commercial trucks as replacing one large diesel rig = CO2 reduction from 56 passenger EVs.
Obviously that would be 'last mile' in town delivery trucks at first, which would also greatly improve air quality in cities. An estimated 15,000 people die in Canada every year from issues related to air quality.

The BC government wants you to install a new 220v circuit for your new electric water heater, another 220V circuit for  your new heat pump and another 220V circuit for your Level 2 EV charger. Expensive even if your breaker panel and service are large enough to accommodate them. Then, where is all this new clean electricity going to come from? BC has no rivers left to dam.

[herbie]

2 hours ago, Aristides said:

Then, where is all this new clean electricity going to come from? BC has no rivers left to dam.

and has done little other than piddle about with alternate sources because of so much Hyrdro. There are plenty of rivers left, but the Skeena and Fraser are untouchable.

Doesn't mean they aren't or can't doing anything as you seem to infer

[Perspektiv]

12 hours ago, herbie said:

Canada every year from issues related to air quality.

Automotive emissions are a crumb in the sea of air quality culprits.

You would need to do something about freight trains, to shipping, air travel and freight, along with agriculture, and one of the worst culprits, humans existing.

IE As long as humans s*** or p***, contributing to waste water pollufion, high energy consumption and the creation of waste, which causes immense climate changing gasses, you won't do much in terms of climate change.

Oh, and the rest of the world, specifically developing countries, that literally can't afford to make such changes, that would still be contributing to global warming the same.

[herbie]

Here we go with the argument 'you won't do much, so why try at all' again.

Do you have any idea how much air pollution in cities is from diesel trucks?
Do you know how many companies are involved in electric, hydrogen and lower emission fuels these days?
Did you know that ferries and trains are already in service using electric and LNG?
Or that an electric plane is already undergoing certification for commercial use on short hauls? That the major transport system in Vancouver has been electric SkyTrain for 35 years.

So let's just keep importing Chinese Teslas and Vietnames Vinfasts, Ontario workers don't need jobs building cars anymore. There's lots of openings at Burger King. /s

[Perspektiv]

On 6/29/2023 at 3:52 PM, herbie said:

Do you have any idea how much air pollution in cities is from diesel trucks?

Globally, or in Canada only? Are you also factoring buses, and agricultural vehicles in this assessment? 

These vehicles create immense amounts of greenhouse gasses. No doubt. However, fear mongering Canadians that somehow buying an EV will magically stop global warming or even reduce it, when the bulk of the world including the worst polluters haven't met many targets, is delusional at best. Its propagandist talk, to having people accept being hosed financially in tax heavy penalties, with no actual solution in sight.

On 6/29/2023 at 3:52 PM, herbie said:

Or that an electric plane is already undergoing certification for commercial use on short hauls?

Aircraft technology is nowhere near where it needs to be, to compare to the performance you will get on jumbo jets. 

What you're speaking of, are small haul, short distance aircraft, when the money maker in the industry  needs to be able to travel intercontinental.

On 6/29/2023 at 3:52 PM, herbie said:

Here we go with the argument 'you won't do much, so why try at all' again.

Or rather, why punish with heavy taxes, when technology isn't ready for mass adoption, nor is the electric grid? These changes belong, but should be gradual and pragmatic. 

Taxing Canadians to have a cost to polluting, is a cop out from charging those who really are at fault. Fuel companies and auto maker, but they wouldn't back a leader like that so you have to go after the weakest link.

[herbie]

Oh FFS can you only rehash the same tired complaints? Can you come up with one that's an unsolveable problem and reason to abandon all efforts we try?

Diesel pollutes as well as produces CO2 and yes it does that everywhere. And yes, they're already singing the same cost problem to oppose cleaner fuel standards.
Never heard of electric buses and trains? Or hydrogen ones like the train now running in Quebec?
Electric ferries already in use here and around the world... LNG ships and sail revivals? Oh wait we have to build great LNG tankers that carry enough to power a city and run the ship on BunkerC... only BunkerC can run a big engine, I suppose.
And to update the 25 year old range anxiety excuse with 'you can fly 350 people to Australia' on an electric plane (yet) so why even try.

You find a problem, you don't stop dead you fix it. Is that idea just too 'progressive' for you Can't-servatives?

 

[CdnFox]

11 hours ago, herbie said:

Oh FFS can you only rehash the same tired complaints? Can you come up with one that's an unsolveable problem and reason to abandon all efforts we try?

 

That's the problem with the truth - it's boringly routine and just never changes. 

Quote

Diesel pollutes as well as produces CO2 and yes it does that everywhere. And yes, they're already singing the same cost problem to oppose cleaner fuel standards.

Yes - because its true. See how that works    You on the left don't believe in the truth and change your story all the time but for those who do believe in it things tend to stay the same often.

 

Quote

Never heard of electric buses and trains? Or hydrogen ones like the train now running in Quebec?

Sure. I've heard numerous pilot studies. All expose significant problems with the technology. If the tech is ready to go and practical - why don't we have nothing but electric trains and buses?  Fact is we're still a long ways off.

 

Quote

You find a problem, you don't stop dead you fix it.

Then why haven't you fixed it? Why aren't all vehicles being sold right now Electric? Why haven't these problems been addressed?

The truth is quite simple they are working hard towards solutions, but they don't have them yet. They might one day. But today is not that day.

Conservatives are realists and they understand that if we can't fix the problem today all we can do is work towards a solution tomorrow and adapt to what we have to day. Liberals close their eyes and tax the crap out of people and pretend that they did something.

 

I know! Why don't you sign yet another climate commitment! That'll fix everything!   

[Perspektiv]

13 hours ago, herbie said:

Never heard of electric buses and trains? Or hydrogen ones like the train now running in Quebec?

What's your point? Am not saying the technology isn't there. Since you're clearly the type that has to have things spelled out for you, will spell it out.

Cities for the most part  won't have the budgets to electrify their entire fleets overnight. You need to be pragmatic.

Charging infrastructure. A diesel bus costs a mere fraction of what an EV bus costs. This still plays a role as to why you still mostly see diesel for most of these vehicles, and few EVs being added.

Freight truck batteries cause the weight of trucks to be high if they need range, which minimizes payload--how a truck driver makes money.

A more efficient way to truck, would be with a catenary system. Its an investment heavy solution, that would require massive investment. Its around the corner, but not there yet. Especially since many delivery companies, have the driver buy their own tractor (as do many delivery companies). You are then a contractor, given routes, the insurance  the decals, etc.

You need to understand the industry, before you talk down to someone for not understanding it.

EVs are the future. They aren't for all transportation options now, unfortunately. 

14 hours ago, herbie said:

so why even try.

Its not about not even trying. There should be solutions. I just don't understand the fear mongering and punishing the tax payers. 

You clearly haven't traveled much.

Especially not in the non western world. Electric vehicles just don't exist in such countries. Diesel and fuel are king. Motorcycles. Cars. Buses.

People more worried about survival and not starving to death  to have time to save the planet and virtue signal. This is a problem born in the liberal west. 

When you factor that this population dwarfs those "doing something", it is easy to see why automakers in such countries, don't push EV fear mongering, that nobody could afford. It's not realistic. How are you going to afford to do this as a government  when you can't even afford to maintain most of your roads?

14 hours ago, herbie said:

You find a problem, you don't stop dead you fix it.

You find a problem, you gradually push to resolve it and do it with the means you have to do so.

You don't mark up fuel costs, driving up the cost of existence, homelessness and drug addiction, seeing the unintended consequence as a fair cost to pay.

Being pragmatic is wiser. It understands there is a problem, but doesn't feel punishing anyone but the producers of the problem deserve to be punished.

Virtue signaling hasn't resolved any social issues. The globe is still warming, and will continue to do so.

Nobody has learned from Covid 19. You can vaccinate the living s*** out of Canadians.

You keep poor countries to fend for themselves, and will be hard pressed to find a solution. Shaming your own doesn't fix this. It just makes you feel you're contributing to something.

You're this co-worker I had, who scolded me for throwing my plastic in the garbage. Me informing them the company doesn't recycle plastic, had them berate me for working for a company and not denouncing such behavior.

All the while, unaware 95% of plastic that are "recycled", make it to landfill. 

Why? Most of the contractors who do waste removal, are private. Businesses operate for profit. There is zero profit in recycling plastic for most applications. Unless it's high density plastic, which can be recycled into polyester clothing.

Also, that our recycling infrastructure is broken, forcing Canada to send millions of tons of plastic to China, until they put a stop to this.

You would think this would have politicians see the issue, but instead, we found other, poorer countries to offload our waste to.

You're the type of politician who only sees the recycling being good, ignoring the realities. 

You need to work with reality, to come to tangible solutions. 

Fear mongering and hosing consumers at the pump isn't being pragmatic. It's being opportunistic.

You're essentially putting a big shiny building in Port Au Prince to show donations, that you're building for the people post earthquake. 

When in reality, none of the money is fixing a thing.

You need to understand the difference between both, before being arrogant and talking to me like I haven't read heavily on EVs and aircraft and transportation.