Ontario needs to invest in EVs as a realistic Option.

[Perspektiv]

3 hours ago, Boges said:

They're mostly compact cars that are usually poorly equipped. Having them nicely equipped will likely bring them over $30k. 

Tons of cars are nicely equipped, standard. You won't need the top trim. Kia generously equips theirs. Nissan. 

30, 35k range EVs won't touch the interior quality you get on an ICE.

I am on the market for an SUV or pickup. Nothing EV compares at comparative rates.

 

 

 

[herbie]

49 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

30, 35k range EVs won't touch the interior quality you get on an ICE.

I am on the market for an SUV or pickup. Nothing EV compares at comparative rates.

Actually domeof the brest interiots rated are EVs, read driving.ca to keep up with auto news.

And hold off - you may want to wait for the Toyota Stout they're bringing back their little trucks to N America to compete with the Maverick. I know that would interest me, no one made small pickups last time I went shopping.

[Perspektiv]

15 hours ago, herbie said:

Actually domeof the brest interiots rated are EVs, read driving.ca to keep up with auto news.

And hold off - you may want to wait for the Toyota Stout they're bringing back their little trucks to N America to compete with the Maverick. I know that would interest me, no one made small pickups last time I went shopping.

Yeah, they have the Hillux in the Philippines, which effortlessly outsells the Maverick or equivalent trucks. 

They are much nicer looking, too.

I wouldn't be surprised for that truck to do similar, here.

Insanely practical, and sharp interior.

[herbie]

Back in the 1980s (B4 kids) I had a D50 Ram 4x4 (Mitsubishi), a friend had a Mazda Rotary, another a Courier and there were 10X as many Toyota 4x4s when we ernt camping & offroading. Just a little pickup like that with a little space behind the seats would be perfect even now there's just me & my doggie.

I bought my D50 with a tiny gutless 2.0L intentionally, to ease down the 27 pts. I'd accrued on my license as a young guy. It worked! If they come out with a hybrid PHEV version at the target price, I would dump my 2dr Wrangler in a flash.

[Perspektiv]

I just don't see how an EV would be practical for most of the working class in Canada.

Heck, even many in the middle class, who don't own homes in the suburbs.

I am all for EVs, and can't wait until someone makes the breakthrough that would definitely put me first in line to get one.

IE a battery that charges in less than 10 minutes, and an EV that could do a 5-6 hour trip with fuel leftover with all comforts considered (heater, air conditioning etc).

I couldn't care less about the planet. I have a remote starter on my ICE. 

I idle it until its nice and toasty in the winter.

EV makers or rather politicians, need to stop putting a moral code to these kinds of vehicles. Most won't give a s***.

Understand that if you make these vehicles practical and fun to drive, people will.

Did you get an I phone because it was like the old cellphones?

No. You did or grabbed an Android shortly after, because it was better than your brick or flip cellphone in every single way.

People are selfish. 

If someone scolded me for diving an EV, I would probably idle my car for an hour parked next to it.

I refuse to give up a single creature comfort for the sake of the planet.

"But the planet will be destroyed!"

And I should care, because?

"Don't you want to be alive?"

Of course. And will be until I die. But the planet will only get to that point when am long gone, so it will suck for all the future generations of entitled kids.

I don't understand the tragedy.

[Michael Hardner]

9 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

 

People are selfish. 

...

I refuse to give up a single creature comfort for the sake of the planet.

 

Should be "I am selfish"

This from one of THE major blowhard moralists on the Board.  The same one who is always telling everyone to think of the children is satisfied to leave them a planet that's a burned husk, so he can be comfortable.

 

[Boges]

13 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

IE a battery that charges in less than 10 minutes, and an EV that could do a 5-6 hour trip with fuel leftover with all comforts considered (heater, air conditioning etc).

I couldn't care less about the planet. I have a remote starter on my ICE. 

That's such a narrow view of the divide between EVs and ICE vehicles. If you're driving a car over 300 kms a day and filling up every day, I guess EV tech isn't there for you . . . yet. But if you have Home Charging, you barely have to think about re-filling. It's full in the morning and unless you're driving an ungodly amount throughout the day you'll be fine.

But I can't fill up in 5 minutes!!!! This will never work!!!! Awww muffin.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Boges

[CdnFox]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/ev-chargers-for-strata-owners-1.6804183

New legislation will make it easier for strata owners to install EV charging stations

This just means if a strata wants to spend money installing charging stations it will be easier to pass a vote to do so.  Not trying to make a point or anything, just thought it was interesting given the conversation.

[Perspektiv]

2 hours ago, Boges said:

But I can't fill up in 5 minutes

Am a selfish consumer. Am not alone. 

I buy products that work for me. I buy bacon because its delicious. I use plastic straws because paper straws suck.

I don't care that a pig was killed for it. I would gladly slaughter one myself, for bacon. You can't morally grand stand, when child labor is producing some of the goods you use. 

Am aware my Nestlé chocolate bar was likely at some point produced by kids, and am okay with contributing to this. You can't cherry pick moral outrage. 

I don't get guilt tripped into buying products I don't want. 

I had to drive an EV a few hours round trip. I showed 300KMs or so. I used the AC as was insanely hot.

An ICE would have made it easy. 3/4 there I realize am almost out of power. I then need to find the nearest charge station. None nearby with a supercharger. The cranked AC, was draining KMs like it was nobody's business.

I find one, and barely make it. The nozzle is damaged, and causes a fault on my vehicle. Middle of nowhere. I was able to resolve it, mercifully, but was about to get it towed. 

This of course was isolated, but is part of the anxiety people have with EVs.

I don't accept any inconveniences with my car. I shell out a lot of money for it, so want it with the color I want,  interior, etc.

I was told I should close the AC if down to 100kms and 90kms to go. Why? 

I don't in my ICE. 

Politicians should stop trying to make this a moral issue, by harping on people to buy into this. 

Incentivize businesses and ensure the infrastructure is there. 

Once you become the Apple I phone in your industry, vs flip phones and Qwerty keyboards, people will lineup in droves. An ICE will make no sense.

Make the ICE irrelevant. Thats how you make people switch. 

Not guilt trip and gaslighting.

[Boges]

Quote

 

I don't in my ICE. 

Politicians should stop trying to make this a moral issue, by harping on people to buy into this. 

Incentivize businesses and ensure the infrastructure is there. 

Once you become the Apple I phone in your industry, vs flip phones and Qwerty keyboards, people will lineup in droves. An ICE will make no sense.

Make the ICE irrelevant. Thats how you make people switch. 

Not guilt trip and gaslighting.

 

Cite where you JT has called you a bad person for driving an ICE. 

They've set a goal, but if no one buys EVs then that goal is moot. Right now, I'd contend the biggest obstacle to EV adoption is availability, not the concerns you bring up. 

As more people do adopt EVs it'll become harder to find gas stations, and they'll probably charge even more because it'll be financially more difficult to ship liquid fuel to every street corner. 

And BTW, just because you specifically don't care about Climate change, doesn't mean a good chunk of the population agree. You'll find some serious inconvenience when Carbon Taxes make affording gas an issue for many people. 

Edited May 18, 2023 by Boges

[herbie]

Who is gaslighting? The ones pushing the idea you need to drive 300km a day, that's who. That paying $3.50/L is better than having to plug in. That filling up in 5 minutes is more convenient than sticking a plug in your garage wall when you get home and go to bed. The manufacturers who are pushing the idea on people that EVs are more expensive to build than EVs, 30 years after they crushed the EVs that could serve 90% of people's transportation using dirt cheap lead-acid batteries.

Edited May 18, 2023 by herbie

[Perspektiv]

3 hours ago, Boges said:

Cite where you JT has called you a bad person for driving an ICE. 

Its not what he said. It's what he did. His taxing fuel the way he does. The oilseeds. 

His plan for fuel or ICEs in our society.

Of course EVs are the future, but punishing people who don't jump on board vs building that boarding area to begin with, is no different than saying someone deserves to be hosed at the pumps because of what they drive.

His mentioning his incentives that outweigh this, is assuming Canadians are bad at math.

3 hours ago, Boges said:

is availability

Its availability and practicality.

3 hours ago, Boges said:

As more people do adopt EVs it'll become harder to find gas stations

Great. That's the point I have been making.

3 hours ago, Boges said:

don't care about Climate change

I care, I just don't care for politicians virtue signaling under guise of protecting the environment, when they travel everywhere in their private jets.

3 hours ago, Boges said:

doesn't mean a good chunk of the population agree

Which type of pickup trucks sell most? EV or ICE?

Buses? EV or ICE?

SUV? 

1 hour ago, herbie said:

The ones pushing the idea you need to drive 300km a day, that's who.

No, the people who want a car that meets their every need. 

Understand your market. Key to business. Meaning, road trips are king in the US. Your vehicle as a result, should be able to drive relevant distances to the equivalent ICE.

Even if you drive that 300kms twice a year. I didn't buy a car to have to use another one. 

Many who run businesses like me, could easily put 55k 70k KMs on their vehicles. There are no current market EVs that can do the job.

Most businesses will buy these types of vehicles not for maximum efficiency, but rather image.

1 hour ago, herbie said:

That paying $3.50/L is better than having to plug in

The convenience of not having anxiety of finding a gas station is worth the tax.

1 hour ago, herbie said:

That filling up in 5 minutes is more convenient than sticking a plug in your garage wall when you get home

Again. Understand your market. 

Most people cannot afford a house. Many rent. Many don't have access to a plug, even less a garage.

Live in inner city areas, then there is no way you're leaving that 500 to 1000$ factory plug outside.

Get one put on your house? Well, again. Not everyone has that kind of money.

I just like many, will buy an EV when it makes sense to us. 

Telling someone meat is murder, won't concert most. Most will eat more meat. Heck, I would slaughter a cow and eat it right away.

Getting nagged about EVs makes me enjoy my ICE, tenfold.

[herbie]

If you live in the inner city, you certainly don't need to think about range. If you rent, new apartments will have to provide a  charging and if it's a home condo or townhouse, the landlord sure as hell won't object if YOU put one in. Some new cars have installation of a 2nd level charger included. Add on top that's where most car chargers are today - downtown.

You can still buy what you want, no one is being 'forced' to buy an EV. Yet.

[taxme]

On 8/9/2021 at 9:29 AM, Boges said:

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/2021/08/09/ontario-is-undermining-its-vision-of-being-an-electric-vehicle-manufacturing-centre.html

DoFo should recognize where the Global winds are blowing. Invest in EV infrastructure an incentivize car-buyers to buy an EV as their next car. 

He risks damaging the Ontario Auto Sector as that's where the Big 3 are moving their focus in the coming years. 

As the Article mentions, Ontario has the Natural resources to help move from Fossil Fuel infrastructure to Battery development and manufacturing. The rest of the country is way ahead of us on this. 

Across the 401 there are OnRoute rest-stop, none have DC Fast Chargers. This is a no-brainer to help make Ontario a more EV friendly market.

I will stick with driving my fossil fuel vehicle. I love it. I can drive approx. five hundred miles on a tank of gas without stopping. An EV cannot do the same. They must stop and charge up somewhere. Maybe even twice. And if the owner of an EV is not paying attention to their battery, they could run out of battery. They then would have to get a tow truck to come pick them up and tow them to the nearest charging station. It could be a long ways away and will include an expensive towing job. If a gas driven vehicle runs out of gas, the owner can get someone to bring them a can of gasoline. No tow required. 

It's so sad to see so many fools like you thinking that man is the cause of global climate change. Such utter bulk chit.  I think that you have been listening to immature know nothing Greta for too long. 

Vancouver is loaded with stupid liberals and socialists. They can be easily brainwashed into doing anything. Make it look and sound good and they will buy into it. The ones that are pushing this global climate nonsense and EV's are the elite WEF globalists. And if the globalists are the ones doing this, then people beware. It will all just be another EV globalist trick and falling for it will cause we the people more harm than good. I say no to EV vehicles. just my opinion. ?

[herbie]

Oh Jeez, don't start with some globalist conspiracy shit. You just undermined your own argument.

I won't be dumping my ICE vehicles either unless they both break down so bad neither's worth fixing. If they do and an EV makes financial sense, I'd go for one.

[Perspektiv]

2 hours ago, herbie said:

If you live in the inner city, you certainly don't need to think about range. 

100%

All great points. However, I like to do road trips annually. If I want to make a 6 hour road trip, I can do this with my current car, no problem. I even have fuel left over to drive around for hours! AC on fully, no less.

Many EV's will not have this kind of range, unless am willing to pay upwards of 90, 000$ for one. 

Thats the point am making. All my vehicular needs aren't met. 

If am shelling 30 to 40k for a car, I want all of my needs met. My car cost me in the 20K range when I bought it. It meets all of my needs. Reliable as heck. Bulletproof engine. Proven track record. Handles beautifully. Gorgeous. 

Imagine the new I phone on the market coming out with less storage and speed than the outgoing phones it was slated to replace.

Make it as shiny as you want, nobody will buy them unless you had some type of environmental advantage to them. IE it was made of bamboo and its case was made of recycled car tires, removing millions from landfills and for each sold, a math book was donated to a kid from Africa.

Of course, many would buy it, but this would be skipped by all cellphone lovers seeking something that works for them, at a fair budget which is the bulk of the cellphone industry. Most people couldn't care less about virtue signaling.

EVs are no different.

Good luck finding an EV in a developing nation. And how is a mere fraction of the population supposed to offset the damage done by the bulk of the world which will be nowhere near ending the marriage it has with fossil fuels?

38 minutes ago, herbie said:

If they do and an EV makes financial sense, I'd go for one.

We are in the same boat. But they also have to make practical sense to me. 

I think some of the Audi EVs are beautiful. I love their SUV. 

388KM range, on their high price flagship EV SUV.

This is ridiculous range. 

Know your market. Covid has made the camping and road trip market explode. Not going anywhere either. 

The biggest goal from an EV maker, is to match the range of an ICE. Not virtue signal.

 

[OftenWrong]

On 5/17/2023 at 8:04 PM, Michael Hardner said:

This from one of THE major blowhard moralists on the Board.  The same one who is always telling everyone to think of the children is satisfied to leave them a planet that's a burned husk, so he can be comfortable.

I'm not sure why you have attacked this poster here, whom I have not seen insult anyone in his posts yet. Were you feeling cranky this morning?

These are the kind of people we want to keep around, not the idjiot factory.

[OftenWrong]

On 5/17/2023 at 7:52 PM, Perspektiv said:

IE a battery that charges in less than 10 minutes, and an EV that could do a 5-6 hour trip with fuel leftover with all comforts considered (heater, air conditioning etc).

Let's consider the power needed to do what you're asking. A little morning-math. Assume a car needs about 100 horse-power to run at full power. One HP is about 750 watts, so in order to run at full power on the highway, it is consuming 75 kW.

What does that mean? Compare it to your laundry drier, for example. Most driers operate at 5 kW. The total heat generated from the vehicle is equivalent to about 75/5= 15 times higher than a household drier.

Now you want to restore the energy which was used over a 6 hour period, in about ten minutes. Since every hour has 6 ten-minute intervals, the charge rate needs to be 6 x 6 = 36 times higher than the discharge rate. The power during charging would be proportional. From this you can see how much heat would be generated during charging.

That battery gonna exppplllloddde

[Boges]

13 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Let's consider the power needed to do what you're asking. A little morning-math. Assume a car needs about 100 horse-power to run at full power. One HP is about 750 watts, so in order to run at full power on the highway, it is consuming 75 kW.

What does that mean? Compare it to your laundry drier, for example. Most driers operate at 5 kW. The total heat generated from the vehicle is equivalent to about 75/5= 15 times higher than a household drier.

Now you want to restore the energy which was used over a 6 hour period, in about ten minutes. Since every hour has 6 ten-minute intervals, the charge rate needs to be 6 x 6 = 36 times higher than the discharge rate. The power during charging would be proportional. From this you can see how much heat would be generated during charging.

That battery gonna exppplllloddde

Modern fast chargers have cooling systems. 

Though these batteries aren't really meant to Fast Charge every day. The idea is charge overnight on a 30 amp outlet. 

Most modern EVs can charge in under 30 minutes, for Roadtrip purposes. 

[Boges]

12 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

388KM range, on their high price flagship EV SUV.

This is ridiculous range. 

Know your market. Covid has made the camping and road trip market explode. Not going anywhere either. 

The biggest goal from an EV maker, is to match the range of an ICE. Not virtue signal.

So you're going to drive 400 kms and not want to take a pee break or get food?

Does the 45 extra minutes you may have to wait for a charge get helped by the fact you're paying a fraction for the transportation costs. And the fact that that for the vast majority of the time you're using the EV you don't even really have to think about refuelling all that much, as it's done overnight when Hydro rates are at the lowest. 

You can't speak out of both sides of your ass. You can't complain about the upfront cost of EVs and not concede that they save a lot of money throughout the life of your car. The only service costs I've had on my EV in the last year plus is replacing the cabin air filter and swapping out Winter Tires. 

[CdnFox]

20 minutes ago, Boges said:

So you're going to drive 400 kms and not want to take a pee break or get food?

CLEARLY you haven't met my father

[Perspektiv]

26 minutes ago, Boges said:

So you're going to drive 400 kms and not want to take a pee break or get food?

I can drive 5 hours, no break. 3 hours, there really isn't a point, in my opinion. I typically drive 120 to 130km/h.

Beyond the 5 hour mark, I like to stretch and take breaks. 

Unless with kids in tow, I tend to do the entire way straight. 

I see what you're saying, but you have to keep in mind I have driven quite a few electric vehicles.

My boss was a huge Fiskar fan, so owned a couple of their vehicles.

I know so many people with Teslas.

Am not against the technology. Am for it. I just don't move to technologies because its the right thing to do. I do so because it works for me. 

40 minutes ago, Boges said:

Does the 45 extra minutes you may have to wait for a charge get helped by the fact you're paying a fraction for the transportation costs.

I can only speak for myself. My time is valuable to me. I will shell out the 70$ to ship something overnight if time sensitive, vs the cheaper option at 15$. 

Same way how I will walk out an establishment if I see disinterested staff standing around, looking like: "Ugh. Can't you see that am texting?!"

My wife was shocked, in that I would be willing to shell out 300$ more for a hotel room in Hong Kong and cancel one on the spot for my time being wasted. She haggles.

"I'll throw money at a problem", being what I told her.

Long story short, if I have to wait 45 minutes to fuel a car, that car needs to be burnt down to the ground. 

My wife is willing to ride a bus, catch a ferry and so on, for 5 bucks (and take 2:15 to get there, vs an 80$ cab that does the job in 15 minutes. I will catch the cab.

Dating me a year, she became that much more efficient with her time. I became more patient with things I can't control.

Where I can control things, I will pick what won't waste me time.

1 hour ago, Boges said:

You can't speak out of both sides of your ass.

I want a car under 35K. I don't see a point in paying "for show" money, when I can spoil the wife with trips around the world. 

I want bang for my buck. Am willing to shell more for a pick up truck. But I am not willing to sacrifice a thing with such a purchase. Am a consumer, not a hero. Companies need to realize this. Its not my job to do "my part" beyond the recycling that I do.

I have been to developing countries where pollution is sky high. You come back coughing up black soot in some places. Our "dirty" cars are incredibly clean in comparison due to regulation.

The level of privilege in thinking that the purchasing an EV makes any global impact, considering the bulk of the world is fuel dependent is delusional. 

Invest in the technology, perfect it, and make the gradual switch vs making it a moral issue.

Far more practical. 

You best believe I will gladly make the switch when it makes sense. 

But for posters to insult those who aren't "saving the planet" or that it's selfish to think of myself, get over yourselves. 

Most of my life revolves around doing things for others, so the moral code judgment falls flat on its face. I don't brag on what I do, because my mother raised me to be humble.

I go out of my way to live a green lifestyle, but to do so at the expense of my comfort or am morally repugnant?

Right. Good luck selling cars with an attitude like that. Build the products people want, and they will flock.

It's why woke ideology doesn't belong in business. 

[Boges]

Quote

Invest in the technology, perfect it, and make the gradual switch vs making it a moral issue.

I'm not going to address every point made in your diatribe. But this is exactly what's happening. The "moral" issue is the idea that we should stop relying on Dino Juice for global transportation. 

You seem attacked that governments are asking people to actually pay for pollution now. Well that's the only way we'll actually start to think about reducing pollution. And developing nations still amount for a fraction of the global pollution vs developed nations. 

Your next two vehicles can be ICE without giving much thought to an EV. But come mid-2030, I suspect much of the issues you bring up will be address. But the only way they'll be addressed is if we start investing in the shift today. Which is happening, despite the protest from people who want cheap gas, large vehicles and no consquences. 

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

I'm not sure why you have attacked this poster here, whom I have not seen insult anyone in his posts yet. Were you feeling cranky this morning?

These are the kind of people we want to keep around, not the idjiot factory.

This person is a giant waste of time, in a way that no other poster is.  They write elaborate posts flattering themselves and how they deal with the world then a few posts later they write a complete contradiction.  I went a long way down the rabbit hole trying to point this out - reasonably - to this person. 

A complete waste of time.

I was asking them to NOT use the term 'groomer', which is at best ambiguous.  "I respect people" yadda yadda ... narcissistic posts about how pragmatic they are, respectful, etc.... and then...

He announces out of nowhere he's blocking me.

Total dud.

[Michael Hardner]

36 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

 

But for posters to insult those who aren't "saving the planet" or that it's selfish to think of myself, get over yourselves. 

 

I think the "yourself" of people who aren't willing to do thing one to help the world is a bigger problem than virtue signalers.