Ontario needs to invest in EVs as a realistic Option.

[Boges]

13 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Indeed... it's been so long I forgot. That is something only the people who bought one would know, I guess... Well not to worry, the Tesla might also become an interesting museum piece one day.

But seriously, you neglected to highlight one detail. Price tag $79k... are you people kidding me? And for that sub-par performance.

I am not against the removal of ICE vehicles in principle. I am pointing to the coming disaster being set up by our government, that is the elimination of new ICE vehicles from the market in less than 7 years. Besides the infrastructure problem, anyone thought about what this move will do to car companies? Seems pretty obvious that once it kicks in, the number of people buying used cars will dramatically increase. Used cars will become a hot commodity. What will happen to new car sales is debatable. Shot term they will go down I say, and if the price stays that high they'll go down long term too. Many young people simply don't make that kind of money. They can't afford a decent place to live, let alone a high price-tag item like this.

Not that it matters to me much, I'm retiring soon. I tend to drive my cars as long as possible, until the wheels rust off. It's only when the vehicle becomes a safety hazard, structurally, that I stop using it. Then I turn it in for recycling.

Would you balk at someone spending $80k on an ICE Pickup Truck? You can get a Tesla for cheaper than $80k. 

And the pledge is to remove new sales by 2035, I know you're not terrific at math, but that's 12 years. Most car companies have also started a transition. 

There are EV options that are well under $40k. And as discussed in this thread already, most decent cars are well over $30k new. If you want something under $30k you'll be getting a base model compact. You'd be better off buying a used car. Which is something that will still be possible with ICE vehicles in 2035. 

Quote

Some folks on the other hand get a new vehicle every few years, on lease. I bet Boges was one of those.

I was in the market for a new car. My Domestic ICE Compact was becoming unreliable (Check Engine Lights and such). I drive 100 kms a day when commuting to work, my wife works in-town, so making a move to an EV that never has a range under 150 kms (usually 250-300 kms) seemed like the smart thing to do. Now I don't need to do oil changes, and I can charge at home. 

My other Car is a Hybrid that is over 100,000 kms that I own outright. So, like you, I want that car to last longer. Therefore I reduced it's burden with my EV. 

[Perspektiv]

Most electric cars are fugly. 

[Boges]

13 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Most electric cars are fugly. 

That's a subjective opinion. 

I think the Ioniq 5 is a cool looking car. 

Teslas are ugly? 

[Perspektiv]

4 hours ago, Boges said:

Teslas are ugly? 

I said most. Tesla cars aren't bad looking for most. The Cybertruck looks like someone challenged designers to draw a piece of s*** but to make it look abstract and metaphorical.

Most EVs try too hard to look futuristic vs providing what many want out of their cars. Practicality.

[Boges]

27 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

I said most. Tesla cars aren't bad looking for most. The Cybertruck looks like someone challenged designers to draw a piece of s*** but to make it look abstract and metaphorical.

Most EVs try too hard to look futuristic vs providing what many want out of their cars. Practicality.

I think the difference is the fact that EVs don't require much internal cooling so the front-ends don't have Grilles. 

So you get an EV that looks like this: 

VS it's ICE counterpart. 

[CdnFox]

5 minutes ago, Boges said:

I think the difference is the fact that EVs don't require much internal cooling so the front-ends don't have Grilles. 

So you get an EV that looks like this: 

VS it's ICE counterpart. 

The ev does look a little like it's wearing a covid mask.

[Perspektiv]

3 hours ago, CdnFox said:

The ev does look a little like it's wearing a covid mask.

Heh, seriously.

I thought of GI Joe's cobra commander when I saw that. 

To me, the grille is the personality of the car. A car could do without the exhaust pipes, but the Rolls Royce without its iconic grille or the BMW, is just not the same.

Its like Louisiana chicken without the flavor. 

"But its good for the planet!"

Reminds me of my personal trainer telling me how delicious rice cakes can be. 

"A little bit of whey jerm on it."

Yeah, sure. Why don't I also enjoy a plain yogurt with a non fat vanilla ice cream, said nobody ever.

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Perspektiv

[Boges]

Well if that's the excuse not to get an EV, we're entering some slim pickens territory. 

[CdnFox]

27 minutes ago, Boges said:

Well if that's the excuse not to get an EV, we're entering some slim pickens territory. 

LOL well true, and it wouldn't really hold me back.

I was even thinking you could sell that unused grill space for advertising and help pay for the vehicle. Do the ad in reverse or something so that every time the guy ahead of you looked in his rear view he'd see it

Maybe something like "been in a car aaccident? Call mayer and mayer law co at.... "

And if you really want to be cheeky beneith that put "Not been in a car accident? Try slamming on your breaks like that one more time and see what happens you *&$(&#$("

[Perspektiv]

On 5/6/2023 at 10:47 AM, Boges said:

Well if that's the excuse not to get an EV, we're entering some slim pickens territory. 

Uh, lack of range, I drive long distance, very often. I shouldn't need to check apps to find stations that won't take me 8 hours to charge (supercharger stations).

There are literally gas stations at just about every highway exit. In the middle of nowhere, two things are almost certain. Gas station, and a Timmies.

Pricing also plays a major part for me. I can easily find an ICE car that would take me to Toronto barely breaking a sweat for under 30K.

Many EVs struggle with range. Those that do not in the slightest, tend to be very expensive.

Charging takes time. I can fuel my car from zero, in less than two minutes. Full.

I can probably do 80% in ten to fifteen on the best cars. 100% charges deteriorates your battery life over time. Defeating the purpose of getting a long range EV.

Battery technology is currently dirty, and far from carbon neutral.

Battery charging technology is often far from carbon neutral, which makes things hypocritical if you're using fossil fuels, coal or dirty energy to run your "clean" EVs.

Thats literally a politician virtue signaling about green technology being the future and that we must adopt, as they fly. to. each. event on a private jet.

Am all for EVs, but I strongly believe Honda and Toyota have better understanding of the future.

We will be fossil fuel dependent for decades to come. 

You can't cut cold turkey something that is literally embedded into your infrastructure. It takes time. Tons of money.

Pressuring people is backwards.

Get the infrastructure and the technology, and get pricing driven down.

Once it would be moronic to drive an ICE, it's funny with human nature, people will naturally adopt EVs.

[herbie]

If you do lots of long range driving then you're not the market they make EVs for.

I live where I might drive 100km one day a week, 350km every 3 or 4 weeks and 1000km+ at most twice a year. I'd be foolish not to consider selling one of my SUVs and getting an EV as there's lots that will have the range 360 days a year. Or even to combine topping up with taking a meal break or motel stay which I do anyway. Sure as hell ain't doing anymore 1000km hotshots at my age.

A couple 1/2 hr quick charges and an overnight to get from here to Vancouver is no problem at all.

[Boges]

16 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Uh, lack of range, I drive long distance, very often. I shouldn't need to check apps to find stations that won't take me 8 hours to charge (supercharger stations).

There are literally gas stations at just about every highway exit. In the middle of nowhere, two things are almost certain. Gas station, and a Timmies.

Pricing also plays a major part for me. I can easily find an ICE car that would take me to Toronto barely breaking a sweat for under 30K.

Many EVs struggle with range. Those that do not in the slightest, tend to be very expensive.

Charging takes time. I can fuel my car from zero, in less than two minutes. Full.

I can probably do 80% in ten to fifteen on the best cars. 100% charges deteriorates your battery life over time. Defeating the purpose of getting a long range EV.

Battery technology is currently dirty, and far from carbon neutral.

Battery charging technology is often far from carbon neutral, which makes things hypocritical if you're using fossil fuels, coal or dirty energy to run your "clean" EVs.

Thats literally a politician virtue signaling about green technology being the future and that we must adopt, as they fly. to. each. event on a private jet.

Am all for EVs, but I strongly believe Honda and Toyota have better understanding of the future.

We will be fossil fuel dependent for decades to come. 

You can't cut cold turkey something that is literally embedded into your infrastructure. It takes time. Tons of money.

Pressuring people is backwards.

Get the infrastructure and the technology, and get pricing driven down.

Once it would be moronic to drive an ICE, it's funny with human nature, people will naturally adopt EVs.

We've been over all the points you've made in this post in this thread. The new one is now that they're ugly because they don't have Grilles? 

I've said over and over again, that EVs in their current form, are not for everyone and infrastructure will need to be built up. Which is actually the point of the OP.

We keep getting cheaper EVs (relative to ICE vehicles) and ones with higher ranges. That will continue as the decade moves on. And Battery tech will likely move away from some of the more problematic and difficult minerals. 

To say that EV battery tech is worse than continuing to rely on infrastructure that has oil drilled, refined and transported to within 5 kms of everyone in this country is laughable. 

But some people are outright Anti-EV as if it's some socialist plot. 

Edited May 15, 2023 by Boges

[Perspektiv]

17 minutes ago, Boges said:

To say that EV battery tech is worse

Never said worse. Pointed to the fact that neither are clean. Was pointing to the hypocrisy. 

EVs currently are greener. Not green. 

If your overall carbon footprint is still large, you're simply creating a different problem. 

21 minutes ago, Boges said:

EVs in their current form, are not for everyone

Based on sales, aren't for most on market for cars.

[Boges]

40 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Never said worse. Pointed to the fact that neither are clean. Was pointing to the hypocrisy. 

EVs currently are greener. Not green. 

If your overall carbon footprint is still large, you're simply creating a different problem. 

Solving the problem would be not driving private cars anymore. But that's Agenda 21 BS right? 

Battery tech has lots of room for improvement. The ICE model has seemingly maxed out on all possible efficiencies. 

Quote

Based on sales, aren't for most on market for cars.

Perhaps cite what you're getting at here. If you own a garage and drive under 200 kms a day, why wouldn't an EV be for you? 

[Perspektiv]

1 hour ago, Boges said:

Perhaps cite what you're getting at here. If you own a garage and drive under 200 kms a day, why wouldn't an EV be for you? 

When I was in Hong Kong a couple months ago, EVs were literally everywhere. There are cities in China where a massive amount of the vehicles, are EVs. 

Hong Kong is a bus friendly city. Walking and subways are king. It makes zero sense to own a car there unless you're wealthy. 

Even then, it just makes more sense to have an EV. 

The American market is different. Road trips are king. Many have cottages. 

EVs wouldn't suit most people.

Sure, most day to day driving is perfect for the EV. But if I like driving to see family in the US and the drive is 8 hours. It would be a painful trek to make with an EV.

I could almost make the bulk of the trip with my car, stopping for a couple minutes to stretch and fuel up. 

EVs will be replacing ICEs. They just aren't there yet.

Government pressure won't make the technology good enough to any quicker.

Targets are good, just like design drawings. 

1 hour ago, Boges said:

If you own a garage and drive under 200 kms a day, why wouldn't an EV be for you? 

I agree. Most do not. Most can't afford a house. 

My point precisely. Why most don't buy EVs.

[herbie]

I'm shocked how some people insist no one wants EVs, point to old sales figures as proof, yet builders can't keep up with demand for them and sales are skyrocketing.

As they do with pricing, complaining they can't buy a $20K EV when you can't buy any new cars for $20K. The average price Canadians spend on a new vehicle is over $50K. There are plenty of EVs in that range - if you can find one on a lot that's not already sold.

Add that to this range nonsense that you can't take the kids to WallyWorld in an EV when you'd save more money than it would cost to rent a minivan for your 2 weeks vacation.

Edited May 15, 2023 by herbie

[Boges]

1 hour ago, herbie said:

I'm shocked how some people insist no one wants EVs, point to old sales figures as proof, yet builders can't keep up with demand for them and sales are skyrocketing.

As they do with pricing, complaining they can't buy a $20K EV when you can't buy any new cars for $20K. The average price Canadians spend on a new vehicle is over $50K. There are plenty of EVs in that range - if you can find one on a lot that's not already sold.

Add that to this range nonsense that you can't take the kids to WallyWorld in an EV when you'd save more money than it would cost to rent a minivan for your 2 weeks vacation.

And how many of these families that do roadtrips every weekend, don't already have multiple vehicles for different purposes. 

Opponents talk out of both sides of their ass. 

[CdnFox]

9 minutes ago, Boges said:

And how many of these families that do roadtrips every weekend, don't already have multiple vehicles for different purposes. 

Opponents talk out of both sides of their ass. 

So your'e suggesting a hybrid ownership (not hybrid cars) where a family or couple has one ice and one ev and uses each at the appropriate time.

I could see that solving a number of issues.

[herbie]

Don't most families already own 2 vehicles? That's how it's been since the late 1950s.

If you're single and living in a downtown apartment, you're already nuts not to own an EV

[CdnFox]

Just now, herbie said:

Don't most families already own 2 vehicles? That's how it's been since the late 1950s.

If you're single and living in a downtown apartment, you're already nuts not to own an EV

Well its becoming less popular to own 2 vehicles in the cities these days. But setting that aside i think the challenge would be getting over the 'his and hers' mentality that we're used to.  Sort of the "this is my car and i drive that - that's your car and you drive that" ideology is pretty prevelant. People like to set their cars up just the way they like and don't like it when people mess with that.

So - there would have to be a change in attitudes where you choose the best vehicle for what you have to do and switch back and forth as needed.  But - not that big of a hurdle. 

[Perspektiv]

3 hours ago, herbie said:

I'm shocked how some people insist no one wants EVs

Many want EVs, many just don't think they are ready to adopt the technology just yet, when ICEs are still way better.

4 hours ago, herbie said:

sales are skyrocketing.

ICEs are still king.

Pickup trucks are king in the US. ICEs dominate in this segment because there is just nothing on the market that can do the job as well, at the same price.

4 hours ago, herbie said:

you can't buy any new cars for $20K

You sure can. Realostixally, sub 25k if you want a loaded vehicle. Tons of options at that range.

4 hours ago, herbie said:

when you'd save more money than it would cost to rent a minivan for your 2 weeks vacation.

If you're willing to shell an average 50K, you will go with what is most convenient for you. Not what is best for the planet. 

The moment EVs offer something that competes with ICEs in every way, the technology only then, will be as good as dead.

[herbie]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

You sure can. Realostixally, sub 25k if you want a loaded vehicle. Tons of options at that range.

Go find one. I dare you. Don't go by the 'starts at' MSRP ad, if a dealer's already got one they'll hose you way more.If you order from the factory, they'll ding you at least $2000 delivery & prep.

And BTW the site is predominantly Canadian. $20K USD translates to $27K Cdn.

 

 

[Perspektiv]

6 hours ago, herbie said:

And BTW the site is predominantly Canadian.

I was talking Canadian dollars. A sub 25K car is easy to find. I could effortlessly find you a dozen.

[Boges]

18 hours ago, CdnFox said:

So your'e suggesting a hybrid ownership (not hybrid cars) where a family or couple has one ice and one ev and uses each at the appropriate time.

I could see that solving a number of issues.

That's my situation. The hybrid is an option when range anxiety is real. 

You'll see people say EVs are too expensive, but they want to do lots of roadtrips in big SUVs. Do you want your transportation to be affordable or not? 

New Tech always relies on early adopters who are willing to sacrifice on a few things. 

[Boges]

6 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

I was talking Canadian dollars. A sub 25K car is easy to find. I could effortlessly find you a dozen.

We've been over this. 

They're mostly compact cars that are usually poorly equipped. Having them nicely equipped will likely bring them over $30k. 

But again, if you're in the market for a 25K New car, you're not going be getting an EV yet. 

Asian Automakers are the only ones that even play in the Compact sector anymore.