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Ontario needs to invest in EVs as a realistic Option.


Boges

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https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/2021/08/09/ontario-is-undermining-its-vision-of-being-an-electric-vehicle-manufacturing-centre.html

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And as millions of North Americans shift from pump to plug, the auto sector will be shifting too. It’s a road that Canada is already someway down, with Detroit’s Big Three automakers recently announcing deals to build electric vehicles (EVs) in Ontario, supporting thousands of Canadian jobs.

Yet, despite touting Ontario as a “global hub for EV manufacturing,” the provincial government has done almost nothing to help Ontario live up to its EV potential. And it’s threatening its auto future.

 

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Last year, there were more EVs registered in Metro Vancouver than in all of Ontario. This isn’t because Ontarians are particularly different from British Columbians. It’s because they have different governments, with very different EV agendas.

When Premier Ford took office, he cancelled the province’s EV rebate program (something that Canadians in eight other provinces and territories can access), deleted EV requirements in the Ontario building code and ripped out public EV charging stations that had already been installed.

 

DoFo should recognize where the Global winds are blowing. Invest in EV infrastructure an incentivize car-buyers to buy an EV as their next car. 

He risks damaging the Ontario Auto Sector as that's where the Big 3 are moving their focus in the coming years. 

As the Article mentions, Ontario has the Natural resources to help move from Fossil Fuel infrastructure to Battery development and manufacturing. The rest of the country is way ahead of us on this. 

Across the 401 there are OnRoute rest-stop, none have DC Fast Chargers. This is a no-brainer to help make Ontario a more EV friendly market.

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9 minutes ago, Shady said:

Until you realize what goes into manufacturing electric vehicles and their batteries.

At least metals in Lithium Batteries are recyclable. 

Battery tech is continually evolving. Unlike ICE fuel efficiency, which can't seem to get below 6L/100 kms. 

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https://cleantechnica.com/2021/01/07/cobalt-banished-from-new-lithium-ion-electric-vehicle-batteries/

The EV industry is already moving away from Cobalt. 

Though it's silly to assume that creating advanced technology will not require raw materials. 

I fail to see how the only obstacle someone faces when choosing to buy an EV would be the mining of certain metals that make the battery. 

Especially if the alternative is investing in another inefficient ICU vehicle for another 5-10 years. 

Edited by Boges
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Electric cars will change the way we live and how we use our time. I can get almost 800km of range in a couple of minutes with my compact car while I see that an expensive Tesla will get only 200 miles of range after 15 minutes of supercharging. The bottom line is that people will be spending an awful lot more time waiting around to recharge. I have to wonder where all the electricity will come from as well. Wind turbines and solar panels?

The dirty secret of electric vehicles | World Economic Forum (weforum.org)

David Booth: What happens when there's just too many Teslas? | Driving

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THE most polluting way of all to make a vehicle move is with a lithium ion battery.   There is not enough lithium known or assumed to discoverable to make enough Li Ion batteries to handle transportation the way we do it.  It is an absolute fool's paradise to be promoting or using BEVs.   Similarly, depending on technologies that don't even exist (i.e. clean, sustainable electric storage with enough energy density to be practical) is once more MORONIC.   That also makes me an optomistic moron as I believe strongly in going down the hydrogen and some very advanced combustion technologies route since I have seen functioning early stage developments.   You can use hydrogen as a fuel in the current installed base of internal combustion engines with relative ease and with the right storage technology (again, existing but early stage) higher energy density than diesel and kerosene (i.e. jet and some rocket fuel).

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  • 2 weeks later...

Wind turbines and solar panels provide a small fraction of the power required. Here in a city of over a million, virtually 100% of the power to charge trendy EV’s and our swanky new busses comes from 4 coal fired power plants west of the city.

Also, how is POTawa going to replace the billions extorted from Alberta each year under the guise of welfare transfer extortions?

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On 8/15/2021 at 6:25 PM, ironstone said:

Electric cars will change the way we live and how we use our time. I can get almost 800km of range in a couple of minutes with my compact car while I see that an expensive Tesla will get only 200 miles of range after 15 minutes of supercharging. The bottom line is that people will be spending an awful lot more time waiting around to recharge. I have to wonder where all the electricity will come from as well. Wind turbines and solar panels?

The dirty secret of electric vehicles | World Economic Forum (weforum.org)

David Booth: What happens when there's just too many Teslas? | Driving

Not true. Because you can no charge your car at home when you're sleeping. 

EVs only weakness is on long roadtrips. And that's quickly changing. For daily commutes, joy rides, or daily errand running, an EV is a much more appealing option. 

As you say, you have to plan and locate DC Superchargers, as opposed to filling up at a gas station. 

Edited by Boges
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22 hours ago, RedDog said:

Wind turbines and solar panels provide a small fraction of the power required. Here in a city of over a million, virtually 100% of the power to charge trendy EV’s and our swanky new busses comes from 4 coal fired power plants west of the city.

Also, how is POTawa going to replace the billions extorted from Alberta each year under the guise of welfare transfer extortions?

Well you live in a backwater. 

Places with proper power grids have switched to Nuclear or LNG.

BTW something you don't comprehend is that an EV motor is exponentially more efficient than an ICE Engine. 

So EVEN if the power you're getting is coming from the worst Coal there is, it's still being used for transportation way more efficiently than wasting 50+ litres of energy dense gasoline. 

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On 8/18/2021 at 11:40 PM, cannuck said:

THE most polluting way of all to make a vehicle move is with a lithium ion battery.   There is not enough lithium known or assumed to discoverable to make enough Li Ion batteries to handle transportation the way we do it.  It is an absolute fool's paradise to be promoting or using BEVs.   Similarly, depending on technologies that don't even exist (i.e. clean, sustainable electric storage with enough energy density to be practical) is once more MORONIC.   That also makes me an optomistic moron as I believe strongly in going down the hydrogen and some very advanced combustion technologies route since I have seen functioning early stage developments.   You can use hydrogen as a fuel in the current installed base of internal combustion engines with relative ease and with the right storage technology (again, existing but early stage) higher energy density than diesel and kerosene (i.e. jet and some rocket fuel).

That's a load of crap. EVEN if making the battery was that damaging (more damaging than extracting Oil from the Tar Sands?) It's a one time cost. Where an ICE car is polluting at many stages in the fuelling processing the entire lifecycle of the vehicle. 

Hydrogen could work but the infrastructure isn't there and it's comparably as expensive as Gasoline. 

EVs are more appealing because, just about everyone that can afford one, has the capability of charging them at home. 

Edited by Boges
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1 hour ago, Boges said:

Well you live in a backwater. 

Places with proper power grids have switched to Nuclear or LNG.

BTW something you don't comprehend is that an EV motor is exponentially more efficient than an ICE Engine. 

So EVEN if the power you're getting is coming from the worst Coal there is, it's still being used for transportation way more efficiently than wasting 50+ litres of energy dense gasoline. 

Backwater? Get ahold of yourself. I live in the most highly educated population Centre in Canada. People aren’t buying your self serving centre of the universe BS anymore. You lied. You’ve always lied. Your children know no different so they lie.

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22 minutes ago, RedDog said:

Backwater? Get ahold of yourself. I live in the most highly educated population Centre in Canada. People aren’t buying your self serving centre of the universe BS anymore. You lied. You’ve always lied. Your children know no different so they lie.

Cite. 

And what did "I" lie about? 

Coal is the power source of the developing world. In North America it's quickly being removed as the power source of choice. 

It only makes up 7% of Canada's Electricity production. Mostly in backwater Alberta. 

LNG is an exponentially better option. 

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11 hours ago, Boges said:

Not true. Because you can no charge your car at home when you're sleeping. 

EVs only weakness is on long roadtrips. And that's quickly changing. For daily commutes, joy rides, or daily errand running, an EV is a much more appealing option. 

As you say, you have to plan and locate DC Superchargers, as opposed to filling up at a gas station. 

I know many new homes can have EV charging stations at home and some EV's are plug-in. Yes the plug-in one's can charge while you sleep but at a very slow rate. This link says a Level 1 charger gives 5 miles per hour.

Unfortunately for me my daily commute is almost 200km.

How Long Does It Take to Charge an Electric Car? | CARFAX

How do progressives want to produce electricity besides wind turbines and solar panels? Are there any concerns about all that lithium coming from China?

How does clean energy tech help the environment? - Deseret News

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On 8/9/2021 at 10:28 AM, Boges said:

At least metals in Lithium Batteries are recyclable. 

Wanna know another fun fact about Lithium?

Guess the country they're now calling "The Saudi Arabia of Lithium.

Need a hint:

What country has china just jumped into bed with like a sailor with a twenty buck harbor partner?

Answer: Afghanistan

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13 hours ago, ironstone said:

I know many new homes can have EV charging stations at home and some EV's are plug-in. Yes the plug-in one's can charge while you sleep but at a very slow rate. This link says a Level 1 charger gives 5 miles per hour.

Unfortunately for me my daily commute is almost 200km.

How Long Does It Take to Charge an Electric Car? | CARFAX

A level 1 charger is useless for most EV charging. It can work for Plug-In Hybrids that have small batteries supported by an ICE Engine. 

For a full EV you'll need a 30amp 7.5 kwh Stage 2 charger. That'll get you a full charge in around 6 hours. Then you have DC Fast Chargers (that usually cost money to charge) which can charge in less than an hour. 

You'll need an electrician to run a NEMA connection to your garage, or where ever you'll keep your car and a charger. They sell for as low as $300 on Amazon. And you really don't need a high-end version as all EVs convert your home's AC current to DC current. 

That's a pretty good investment, as now your garage has EV compatibility. 

Also, just about every EV released in the last few years has a range of over 200 kms. Mine has a Range of 300 kms and it's on the lower end. But if you're driving over 200 kms a day, perhaps an EV isn't for you. . . yet.  But it can work for a vast majority of drivers. 

A 200 km daily drive can't be good for Work-Life balance or Mental Health. Mine is 90-100kms and even that is tough with a family. 

 

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How do progressives want to produce electricity besides wind turbines and solar panels? Are there any concerns about all that lithium coming from China?

How does clean energy tech help the environment? - Deseret News

 

It's tough to square the circle that we can't do anything about Climate Change because China still uses Coal. . . but also is a world leader in Clean tech. 

I think North America should get in the game. They'd be good jobs. 

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One hears China is cornering the rare metals market in Africa too.

I don't think you want to make the mistake of thinking this is about personal use for China it's about controlling the market and from that political influence, or again - control.

As is Road and Belt. Being happy about that is thinking you'll enjoy Chinese control of everything. Ask a Uyghur or a member of Falun Gong how much fun that is.

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20 hours ago, Infidel Dog said:

One hears China is cornering the rare metals market in Africa too.

I don't think you want to make the mistake of thinking this is about personal use for China it's about controlling the market and from that political influence, or again - control.

As is Road and Belt. Being happy about that is thinking you'll enjoy Chinese control of everything. Ask a Uyghur or a member of Falun Gong how much fun that is.

And of course the solution to minimizing China's influence is continuing with old, dirty forms of power and transportation AND not investing in domestic clean energy production. 

GM and Hyundai have had to recall thousands of EVs this year due to quality issues in LG Chem factories in China and South Korea. 

This is a perfect opportunity for North American manufacturers to step in. You know creating Good jobs and stuff. 

https://techcrunch.com/2021/04/16/gms-second-2-3b-battery-plant-with-lg-chem-to-open-in-late-2023/

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On 8/30/2021 at 6:56 AM, Boges said:

That's a load of crap. EVEN if making the battery was that damaging (more damaging than extracting Oil from the Tar Sands?) It's a one time cost. Where an ICE car is polluting at many stages in the fuelling processing the entire lifecycle of the vehicle. 

Hydrogen could work but the infrastructure isn't there and it's comparably as expensive as Gasoline. 

EVs are more appealing because, just about everyone that can afford one, has the capability of charging them at home. 

It is a load of crap to you I assume because you are not in the automobile, manufacturing, energy or mining business.  According to the US Academy of Sciences and NRC in testimony given in related Senate hearings, lithium mining is that bad.

Also: where the fuck are you GETTING the lithium?????   

Show me a workable, sustainable battery technology and I am on board.  Give me totally uninformed politically correct bullshit and I have no sympathy for you.

Personally, I could care less what workable hydrogen fuel may or may not cost.  My entire point is that we piss away trillions of dollars and endless human resources trying to devise more ignorant but politically correct (as in the eyes of the fad of the day) ways of doing more of the things that ARE destroying the environment instead of pulling our collective heads out of our ass and DO LESS OF WHAT IS WRONG.   Start with job #1 of getting population growth and then population numbers under control.   Job #2 is stop killing the oceans (as not in any single government jurisdiction and EXTREMELY difficult thing to accomplish - but one that will kill us all off in a relatively short term).

Naahhh, we just have to slag the oil sands and that will solve it all.

Edited by cannuck
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It's amusing that people are sooooo concerned about the environment because of Lithium and Cobalt. But couldn't give two shits about buying yet another car that will emit toxic exhaust for another 10 plus years. 

The big cost of Lithium production is the amount of Water required? You don't think a lot of water is needed to mine Fossil Fuels? 

Cleaner Alternatives to Lithium Ion batteries are coming. We as a society need to prepare for the fact that batteries will be more and more essential for an array of things as we try to achieve a Carbon neutral world. 

Like with anything environmental, population control and ocean conservation are a problem the developing world needs to tackle. 

I got met with blowback when I suggested that, the developed world will need to assist the developing world to develop in a cleaner fashion. We've seen the benefit of a Fossil Fuel driven economy. How can we let the rest of the world see the same benefit but not continue to pollute at such a clip. 

It's tough questions that neither you nor I can address. Because I'm certain that simply telling people in Africa to stop having kids will not fly. 

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It is the Euroweenie driven "carbon neutral" BS that I have so much problem with.  Spending our efforts on air emissions while completely ignoring the basic problem of ocean contamination and die-off is a dead end...and when I say that I mean to imply the "dead" part will apply to our species.  We don't have a carbon emissions problem we have a carbon absorption problem.  We have been killing off the oceans' plankton at a rate of about 1% per year and are past the 20% stage now. By 2050, we will have passed the "tipping point" of where the top end of the world's food chain (plankton) will no longer support the rest of same.  IF the ocean was still at full capacity, it could EASILY absorb the carbon emissions of 8 billion irresponsible idiots.

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On 9/2/2021 at 1:39 PM, cannuck said:

It is the Euroweenie driven "carbon neutral" BS that I have so much problem with.  Spending our efforts on air emissions while completely ignoring the basic problem of ocean contamination and die-off is a dead end...and when I say that I mean to imply the "dead" part will apply to our species.  We don't have a carbon emissions problem we have a carbon absorption problem.  We have been killing off the oceans' plankton at a rate of about 1% per year and are past the 20% stage now. By 2050, we will have passed the "tipping point" of where the top end of the world's food chain (plankton) will no longer support the rest of same.  IF the ocean was still at full capacity, it could EASILY absorb the carbon emissions of 8 billion irresponsible idiots.

So what are some solutions for the Ocean pollution problem? More clamp down on Wild Caught Fishing operations? 

Does the Greenhouse effect and subsequent warming of waters not contribute to the health of oceans? 

A lot of things are reaching a tipping point. More fires release more carbon, more melting permafrost releases more carbon. 

Moving off of Fossil Fuels is certainly one of the steps required. 

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On 11/5/2021 at 7:13 PM, ironstone said:

There will be issues with electric cars too that nobody likes to talk about. I'm all for innovation and for letting the free market decide.

 

I can't watch more than 3 minutes of that guy. He comes off as an old doddering mess. 

I like how the video says "here's why they're a scam". And says nothing of how they're a scam. 

You have to get infrastructure to charge an EV, it's not as much as people think. It cost me $800 (charger and installation) and now the value of my home goes up because I have EV infrastructure in my garage. In fact if people have the same plugs for fridges in their garage, they can use that plus for an EV with a $400 charger you can get on Amazon. 

Most places also have off-peak rates where you can access electricity at a cheaper rate. 

Also regardless of the price of electricity, the comparable cost of using gasoline to power an Internal Combustion Engine will always be more expensive. 

The one good point he makes is Gas Tax. How do you make up the difference if everyone uses Gas. It's a bridge we'll need to cross when we get there. Some places charge a fee on Registration for EVs to make up the lack of taxes used on EVs. 

But right now we're in a climate where governments should incentivize getting an EV. 

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In Canada the figure I've seen from a few years ago suggests that cars are responsible for 11% of the emissions .

I would have to see the cite. But does that include all the emissions associated with extracting, refining and transporting oil to make gasoline? 

One of the good elements of electrifying ground transportation would be the efficiency of having your home hydro and transportation energy coming from the same source. 

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