Canada's national debt out of control...

[Argus]

15 hours ago, cougar said:

We may not be collectively in debt, because what is supposedly owed by our government to the banks and those behind the banks is owed to the winner of our Monopoli game in Canada. 

You mean me?

15 hours ago, cougar said:

But a fucking capitalist government will make you believe you can own land and stuff, so they can sell those to you. 

I bought my house from a private company, actually.

[WestCanMan]

19 hours ago, cougar said:

But a fucking capitalist government will make you believe you can own land and stuff, so they can sell those to you.  They can charge you for water and the next step is to start charging you for air. 

Lol. 

You can hold a fee simple title here indefinitely and just pay the taxes on the land. Just don't forget to pay your taxes for 3 years or the government has the right to sell it on you.

They charge for water because they gather it, protect it, purify it, and put it in a pressurized tap right inside your house. That's not free for them either.

Taxing air? Can you elaborate on how they'd do that? 

[August1991]

On 7/20/2020 at 8:30 PM, cougar said:

What do I "own"?  Philosophically speaking  I own nothing.  None of us owns anything.  We borrow substance from the environment and give it back upon our demise.

But a fucking capitalist government will make you believe you can own land and stuff, so they can sell those to you.

Cougar, you are a zero-sum thinker. Are you a progressive?  Not at all.

BTW, I happen to be a conservative.

====

For some macroeconomists, a Ponzi scheme begins when government spending is rising faster than GDP.

In Canada today, we are far from this.

Edited July 22, 2020 by August1991

[Zeitgeist]

14 hours ago, August1991 said:

Cougar, you are a zero-sum thinker. Are you a progressive?  Not at all.

BTW, I happen to be a conservative.

====

For some macroeconomists, a Ponzi scheme begins when government spending is rising faster than GDP.

In Canada today, we are far from this.

What do you mean?  Canada has negative GDP while public spending is rising.  

[eyeball]

18 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

What do you mean?  Canada has negative GDP while public spending is rising.  

Isn't this just as true in most of the planet's nations at the moment?

[Zeitgeist]

4 hours ago, eyeball said:

Isn't this just as true in most of the planet's nations at the moment?

Yes it is, but people generally don't care until the taxes rise, services are cut, and/or the cheques stop coming.  

[eyeball]

16 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yes it is, but people generally don't care until the taxes rise, services are cut, and/or the cheques stop coming.

Well I'm betting the debt cult that seems to think the only way to save the economy is to destroy it will sing a different tune when guillotines preoccupy people's thinking. 

[cannuck]

On 7/8/2020 at 11:05 PM, eyeball said:

Sure we do, we just place more importance on people than money is all.

What seems to be missing from your twisted logic is any importance being placed on the people who will have to PAY all of that money and the interest bills that go with it.

[Moonlight Graham]

On 7/9/2020 at 6:50 AM, betsy said:

People are now getting used to this handout!  Who's willing to work in lieu of freebie?   To be well-provided for is quite intoxicating.

Are we being groomed and conditioned for downright  socialism?

 

I fear the claw-back.  Nothing is for free.  Maybe......we'd eventually have to give up our properties?  Everyone will be "equal?"

Canada just basically deferred the pain.  Economic pain now or economic pain later paying back the debt (with interest).  People have to eat, but the full economic effects of this won't be felt for a long time.  No matter what we do, this pandemic is an economic disaster.

[Army Guy]

On 7/22/2020 at 7:04 PM, eyeball said:

Well I'm betting the debt cult that seems to think the only way to save the economy is to destroy it will sing a different tune when guillotines preoccupy people's thinking. 

when was the last time the people stood up to the government in an insurrection, 1838 maybe, todays Canadians don't have the balls to stand up for themselves, let alone hold a government accountable...

[eyeball]

17 hours ago, Army Guy said:

when was the last time the people stood up to the government in an insurrection, 1838 maybe, todays Canadians don't have the balls to stand up for themselves, let alone hold a government accountable...

I guess we'll have to rely on the government having the balls to force Canadians to stand on their own then won't we?  Who do you honestly think is going to blink first?

[eyeball]

On 7/31/2020 at 9:48 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

Canada just basically deferred the pain.  Economic pain now or economic pain later paying back the debt (with interest).  People have to eat, but the full economic effects of this won't be felt for a long time.  No matter what we do, this pandemic is an economic disaster.

Maybe it's more a matter of a pandemic exacerbating an economic disaster - a badly sway-backed camel finally breaking under the last straw.

Now I guess we eat the camel.

[Army Guy]

9 hours ago, eyeball said:

I guess we'll have to rely on the government having the balls to force Canadians to stand on their own then won't we?  Who do you honestly think is going to blink first?

Yes , because thats what the government wants the gravy train to stop, just to teach us to stand up on our own,  What makes you think Canadians actually give a rats ass about what the politicians do...They don't..... we keep putting in the same bunch of losers and we are shocked we get the same results....

[August1991]

On 7/22/2020 at 1:02 PM, Zeitgeist said:

What do you mean?  Canada has negative GDP while public spending is rising.  

In the short run, Canada's GDP was falling while its governments were spending.

And in the short run, a small ship may be in the midst of a storm on the ocean - but in the long run, the seas will be calm.

The short run situation of a ship in a storm is wrongly measured by its passenger's vomit - but it may indicate the ship's ballast.

====

BTW, I don't really care how our various governments pay for the spending. So, I ignore discussions about government debt unless it means a Ponzi scheme - Argentine style.

Think about it: All Canadian governments (federal, provincial, municipal) have access to your credit cards and debit cards. What difference does it make which card they use?

====

It only matters if you don't have a credit/debit card.... But you can vote....

Edited August 3, 2020 by August1991

[eyeball]

43 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Yes , because thats what the government wants the gravy train to stop, just to teach us to stand up on our own, 

You must have your conspiracies mixed up I thought the government wanted to control us - pretty much the exact opposite of standing on our own.

Quote

What makes you think Canadians actually give a rats ass about what the politicians do...They don't.....

Sure they do as evidenced by us and there are probably a couple hundred other forums, thousands of coffee klatches and and a hundred thousand other venues in which millions of Canadian tongues are wagging.

Quote

we keep putting in the same bunch of losers and we are shocked we get the same results....

Shocked? I'm not shocked in the least. You're shocked? No way...you're far far too jaded for that.  And who's this we you're talking about, I don't vote for parties with a history of corruption, ever. EOS.   You mean you do?  Don't worry I won't be shocked if you say you do in fact I'd be shocked if you said you didn't. 

[betsy]

On 8/1/2020 at 12:48 AM, Moonlight Graham said:

Canada just basically deferred the pain.  Economic pain now or economic pain later paying back the debt (with interest).  People have to eat, but the full economic effects of this won't be felt for a long time.  No matter what we do, this pandemic is an economic disaster.

I've seen some grocery products up by a dollar!  Once they go up, I don't think they'll ever come down again.

Edited August 3, 2020 by betsy

[onlythetruthmatters]

First they took control of short term interest rates, Now Long term interest rates, there is no Price discovery. Borrowers are being rewarded savers punished the whole system is messed up.

They now control a majority of the economy. Game over...We are at the start of a depression.

[onlythetruthmatters]

On 8/1/2020 at 12:48 AM, Moonlight Graham said:

Canada just basically deferred the pain.  Economic pain now or economic pain later paying back the debt (with interest).  People have to eat, but the full economic effects of this won't be felt for a long time.  No matter what we do, this pandemic is an economic disaster.

The economic pain will be felt as soon as interest rates rise or the borrowing tap is shut off. This could be a lot sooner then anyone expects. I believe we are at the tipping point where spending will have to contract because revenue (taxes receipts) are going to drop longer term do to higher unemployment. When the government starts cutting the pain will be felt and the snowball will start getting bigger.

[cannuck]

On 8/3/2020 at 3:21 PM, onlythetruthmatters said:

The economic pain will be felt as soon as interest rates rise or the borrowing tap is shut off. This could be a lot sooner then anyone expects. I believe we are at the tipping point where spending will have to contract because revenue (taxes receipts) are going to drop longer term do to higher unemployment. When the government starts cutting the pain will be felt and the snowball will start getting bigger.

As long as the Greenback maintains hegemony, too many governments hold instruments denominated in USD to allow it to be destroyed.  The debt of the US is so large, the banks that own Wall Street and the Fed will not let interest rates rise as it would kill the US.  Once again,we get to take a free ride on Uncle Sam's coat tails.

[onlythetruthmatters]

9 hours ago, cannuck said:

As long as the Greenback maintains hegemony, too many governments hold instruments denominated in USD to allow it to be destroyed.  The debt of the US is so large, the banks that own Wall Street and the Fed will not let interest rates rise as it would kill the US.  Once again,we get to take a free ride on Uncle Sam's coat tails.

They will do everything they can to not let it happen, But it will happen......Stage one was lowering interest rates to zero....stage two is QE....stage 3 is printing money.....The first hint that something was wrong was when they tried to raise interest rates last year and the economy went quickly into reverse.....They will keep printing until they can,t no more.....Anyone holding US dollars outside the US will get slaughtered!!!!!

[wxman52]

I blame the Canadians who voted for Trudeau twice. This guy clearly was a lightweight from day one..it was clear he got in because of his charm and last name. He has no real work experience..he has never had to worry about money..losing a job. And somehow Canadians thought he was the best man. 

Its not Trudeaus fault..it was obvious from day one who he was..it is the voters fault for being so naive and superficial to think he was the best choice. So the results of his massive addition to the debt, which again is no surprise coming from him, will fall on the shoulder of those same voters but unfortunately on the rest of us as well who did not vote for him. 

All the western world has pretty much screwed themselves..only Sweden had some ounce of courage and intelligence to try and plot a reasonable path. 

[oops]

What happens if Canada is unable to pay at least the interest on our debt? Does the IMF or some other organization step in? Do we lose control of our government, or do they just forgive our debt?

[August1991]

6 hours ago, oops said:

What happens if Canada is unable to pay at least the interest on our debt? Does the IMF or some other organization step in? Do we lose control of our government, or do they just forgive our debt?

Define "Canada".

This place called "Canada" is based on the rocks/trees -people- who live here. It is much more than any so-called government/federal Prime Minister.

=====

However measured, we people in Canada have much more physical wealth than the paper claims on this wealth.

For example, what is the value of your house? What is your mortgage? Compare this with Canada's debt to GDP ratio.

Our governments can spend alot more - and their, uh, Ponzi scheme will work - if they may make all of us richer.

Such is Canada. Like America, our southern neighbour, we are a positive-sum society.

Edited August 25, 2020 by August1991

[oops]

Who holds our debt, and is our obligation to pay it back? 

[Cannucklehead]

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-finance/services/publications/debt-management-report/2017-2018/part-1.html

The most current figures I can find are from 2017–2018. As it stands, Canada owes most of its debt to Canadian citizens and Canadian institutions (about 68%). Non-residents own about 32% of Canada’s debt.

Rather than borrowing from banks, the government typically borrows from the market, primarily pension funds and insurance companies.  These companies lend money to the government by buying the bonds that the government issues for this purpose.