The Coronavirus

[-TSS-]

No more handshakes after this. It will be especially difficult in some cultures where it is a form.

The Southern-European greetings of kissing on both cheeks and hugging extensively will also be gone. It must be difficult to adapt not those customs any longer.

I think good riddance all this too much touching other people. The Japanese have it right.

[OftenWrong]

38 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

The death rate for infections in Italy right now is 9.5%

Note that death rate for all causes is 100%.

[Dougie93]

43 minutes ago, dialamah said:

For known infections.  I think a lot of people get a mild enough case that they never go anywhere to get counted.  The death rate probably isn't as high as they think.  Or maybe I'm wishful thinking 

My duty is to protect my wife

This is a Bio Safety Level 3 Pathogen

So I have my wife at DEFCON 1 at this time

If it turns out to be a false alarm ; praise the Lord

[Dougie93]

19 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Note that death rate for all causes is 100%.

Nobody gets out of life alive, indeed, but there is a difference between being prepared to die for Her Majesty, and eager

I was a soldier, this is the battlefield, and it is a minefield

It's not even about me, I'm protecting my wife, I'm not letting her prance around in a minefield, and if I go out into it I could bring the mine home with me as a bomb

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

It's not a war

I'll stick to my years of indoctrination training and experience as an infantryman, to include my CBRN instruction as to the nature of BSL3 pathogens, thanks

If it turns out to be a false alarm, great

But as this State of Emergency has conscripted me in effect,  under national mobilization for biological warfare, I am fully operational as to the war effort right now

The Prime Minister is not a serious person and he is not a military operator, so he has no clue what he's doing, and that's why he's failing to get command of the situation

He is not taking command to fight the de facto war, so Canada is essentially leaderless at this time

I however, am an American, and we are at war, so I simply carry on behind the lines here with Foreign Internal Defense of Canada, as our de facto protectorate

 

Edited March 26, 2020 by Dougie93

[OftenWrong]

Stores now marketing themselves as the preferred choice for cleanliness and customer safety.

[Rue]

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

South Korea and Taiwan exist on perpetual wartime footing.  They are under constant threat of attack from their neighbors and have emergency processes and infrastructure in place that makes ours look like kid stuff.  They were among the most aggressive and successful countries at getting people tested and mobilizing a response.  When their government says, "Get tested" or "stay inside" the people just do.  

As for selection bias, you'd do well to look at yourself.  You're freely dismissing information from public health experts around the world (not just the WHO) in favor of whatever "immunologists" you've apparently heard from and whatever talking points you've managed to dig up.  If age or smoking were the main problems with Italy, why has Japan managed so well?  Why is Canada managing so much better than the USA?  Why does Greece, with similar demographics to Italy, have so much lower a rate of infection AND death?  

If I have a selective bias, it's that I'm going to trust that worldwide health experts know what they're doing and are a better source of information than Donald Trump (who is constantly revising his position) or forum posters who've somehow convinced themselves they know more.  I'll admit to that much, at least.  

As for the economic side of the debate, I'm actually educated, trained and employed in finance and not only understand most of it, but also regularly speak with and hear from the macro nerds (who are way smarter than me) and whose work is relied on by folks managing billions.  I CAN comment intelligently on that without simply deferring to the news.  

 

You have subjective biases and opinions and so do I and everyone else on this matter. I do not agree with your use of inference from incomplete data, it's not logical or objective and yes I consider the UN and WHO compromised entities not worthy of the faith you give them. I prefer data directly from immunologists derived using proper methodology not compromised by politics. The WHO has a history of incompetence that we can debate in another thread.

You are not an immunologist so your financial background means sweet fuck all to me with due respect if I get sick. I will not go to you to treat a virus. 

 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2020 by Rue

[Dougie93]

See, here is an example of how it is a minefield

A man in the US had symptoms of the flu, so he thought that was good, not Coronavirus

But turns out it was Coronavirus, 

It was a cough plus nausea, bad flu, so he thought it was flu, but it was COVID

He is not likely to die

But his little girl has underlying conditions,

And now he just has to wait and see if he infected her.

[Army Guy]

4 hours ago, taxme said:

They must be immune to the virus. Quarantine means giving the power to our politicians to be able to imprison we the people over such sillyness. Apparently, even the WHO(World Health Organization)has said that quarantine will not work to stop the virus. it's all just a hoax, folks. Believe it or not. The virus is supposed to be everywhere. It could be in everybody's home right now and waiting to pounce on those compliant self isolationists. But the trained seal lemmings out there will probably still do whatever their dear leaders and the media tell them to do. Just my view of things of course.  

For what reason, ?  you think they are all in a room , shooting the shit, and the PM hands trump his beer, "here hold this" watch me send them mother truckers into instant panic mode....Stay home, practice social distancing 

For what good reason would the government of Canada risk our health and our entire economy for a HOAX... give your head a shake...Maybe it's aliens, invasion of the body snatchers....they get you sick you go to the hospital and poof they turn your ass into a fr333ing alien.... where your greeted by Justin and all the other liberals, welcome to our world...do you even read the stuff you post....

 

Edited March 27, 2020 by Army Guy

[Moonbox]

2 hours ago, Rue said:

You have subjective biases and opinions and so do I and everyone else on this matter. I do not agree with your use of inference from incomplete data, it's not logical or objective and yes I consider the UN and WHO compromised entities not worthy of the faith you give them. I prefer data directly from immunologists derived using proper methodology not compromised by politics. The WHO has a history of incompetence that we can debate in another thread.

You are not an immunologist so your financial background means sweet fuck all to me with due respect if I get sick. I will not go to you to treat a virus. 

Hey I would be the first person to tell you to stay away from me if you got the virus. We've found common ground on that!

I brought up my financial background in reference to the economic impact this will have.  On that topic, I have a pretty good understanding of how the virus is going to affect things, and how the idea of everyone going back to work and everything being just fine is straight-up dumb.  It's not how it will work.   

As for where you "prefer" to get your "data" from, I can't really comment much on that.  There are always "alternative facts" available and if you want to keep nattering about your WHO straw-man, nobody here can stop you.  Forget the fact that the WHO is responsible for eradicating diseases like smallpox and polio for a second.  We can just ignore them altogether and listen to public health officials in Canada or Australia or wherever else if you want (maybe not Russia or China ).  They're not saying anything different.  We're seeing the infection spread just as they told us it would. 

No offense, but as soon as I started reading "politically compromised entities" I started rolling my eyes.  That's pretty standard qanon or D E E P S T A T E conspiracy sloganeering, and I've entertained that rabbit hole of absurdity plenty of times before.  At its core, it's a lazy, catch-all rebuttal of any/all facts than run contrary to the narrative you're peddling.  You can't trust the WHO, they're compromised.  The ministry of health is corrupt.  Bureaucracy! This is all a ploy by the Rothschild family to ruin the economy and help unseat Trump.   /yawn.  

 

 

Edited March 27, 2020 by Moonbox

[Yzermandius19]

7 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

My duty is to protect my wife

This is a Bio Safety Level 3 Pathogen

So I have my wife at DEFCON 1 at this time

If it turns out to be a false alarm ; praise the Lord

Get ready to praise the lord, because chances of it being the doomsday bug ain't that high, and chances of your wife getting it via teleconference ain't that high either.

Edited March 27, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

Just now, Yzermandius19 said:

Get ready to praise the lord, because chances of it being the doomsday bug ain't that high.

I prepare for the worst case, if it turns out to be a false alarm ?  Good training

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

I brought up my financial background in reference to the economic impact this will have.  On that topic, I have a pretty good understanding of how the virus is going to affect things, and how the idea of everyone going back to work and everything being just fine is straight-up dumb.  It's not how it will work.   

The first boats are venturing out to try and rekindle some economic activity hereabouts around fishing.  Keep your fingers crossed, hard times are usually good times for fishermen but I'm pretty concerned about the capacity of fish stocks to kick start the economy in the manner fishermen have kicked it into gear in the past.

I'm reminded of how we're reminded climate change would open up new opportunities...like the greening of the Sahara and its becoming the Earth's breadbasket. Seriously though I know guys who've been issued licences to begin exploring a warming Arctic Ocean for fishing opportunities with trawl trap and longline gear and speaking of deserts that's pretty much what they found.

I fear we've boxed in our ability to recover with so many environmental eight-balls that yeah....straight-up dumb is pretty much how I'd describe our position too.

[Yzermandius19]

3 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I prepare for the worst case, if it turns out to be a false alarm ?  Good training

Fair enough, but that doesn't mean you have to make excuses for governments engaging in obvious friendly fire, that does not follow.

Edited March 27, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Rue]

11 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Hey I would be the first person to tell you to stay away from me if you got the virus. We've found common ground on that!

I brought up my financial background in reference to the economic impact this will have.  On that topic, I have a pretty good understanding of how the virus is going to affect things, and how the idea of everyone going back to work and everything being just fine is straight-up dumb.  It's not how it will work.   

As for where you "prefer" to get your "data" from, I can't really comment much on that.  There are always "alternative facts" available and if you want to keep nattering about your WHO straw-man, nobody here can stop you.  Forget the fact that the WHO is responsible for eradicating diseases like smallpox and polio for a second.  We can just ignore them altogether and listen to public health officials in Canada or Australia or wherever else if you want (maybe not Russia or China ).  They're not saying anything different.  We're seeing the infection spread just as they told us it would. 

No offense, but as soon as I started reading "politically compromised entities" I started rolling my eyes.  That's pretty standard qanon or D E E P S T A T E conspiracy sloganeering, and I've entertained that rabbit hole of absurdity plenty of times before.  At its core, it's a lazy, catch-all rebuttal of any/all facts than run contrary to the narrative you're peddling.  You can't trust the WHO, they're compromised.  The ministry of health is corrupt.  Bureaucracy! This is all a ploy by the Rothschild family to ruin the economy and help unseat Trump.   /yawn.  

 

 

First off Moonie you can not tell because I sound more snotty face on the forum than in person I really like your well written posts so do not take my tone too seriously. I take zero offence to you. You make necessary debate to the other side of discussions I like to debate. So no worries. You know I respect your opinions or I would not respond.

Now that said am I a deep state conspiracist no but you bet I have zero confidence in the WHO and UN and we can debate that one day not now. It has nothing to do with conspiracies. For me I just see ineptitude and corruption no grand illumnati scheme, just corrupted individuals and when I say corrupted or compromised I mean the UN and WHO have an agenda to engage in dissemination of information that is vented to avoid alarm and offending various nations who have political agendas when it comes to handling disease or virus outbreaks.

Having worked in the federal and provincial governments as a lawyer and in risk management sure I have biases of course and not necessarily good ones but there are things I learned from working with government on social programs and with people in need and in different countries that makes me very skeptical about the UN.

Moonie I do not see any deep state conspiracy. I do see governments that dropped the ball and were poorly prepared and I believe it is doctors, nurses, paramedics, cops, social wokers, front line workers that always bare the brunt of such mistakes when it comes to medical issues so my bias is in favour of them and helping them manage. So while I very much appreciate trying to slow down the spread, its not going to stop it and you know why quarantines or house arrest can not and at best buy us time.

I do concentrate on the South Korea, Singapore and Taiwan models because they were models we were supposed to implement but when SARS petered out short sighted governments suddenly stopped pursuing.

Their preparation is not so much about war time mentality as it is early report writing and proper equipment.

Now yes this  particular virus is a challenge because of its relatively invisible symptoms meaning it challenges our systems to come up with better early reporting but we do it already with prostate cancer, breast cancer, many other far more serious illnesses/diseases and we can do it with this virus.

I am positive that new early prevention protocols will enable us to detect illnesses without needing to be sick and to have better preparation of essential equipment such as respirators.

We also have available to us the best scientists in the world cooperating so yes I am skeptical of governments but not doctors and scientists.

I do  know doctors and scientists at universities were I teach can have political agendas based on getting money for research I get that too, but I also know on something like this its a matter of time until they come up with improved protocols. I just think the current message of carry on it will be months, is stupid. The more you say that the more people will become impatient and react negatively.

This is a damned if you do damned if you do not situation and I get I am an arm chair commentator full of hot air. No worries.

By the way I never advocated return to work as normal. You tend to state the options as black and one and in the extreme. Take a look at the South  Korean model in detail.

Edited March 27, 2020 by Rue

[Rue]

11 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Hey I would be the first person to tell you to stay away from me if you got the virus. We've found common ground on that!

I brought up my financial background in reference to the economic impact this will have.  On that topic, I have a pretty good understanding of how the virus is going to affect things, and how the idea of everyone going back to work and everything being just fine is straight-up dumb.  It's not how it will work.   

As for where you "prefer" to get your "data" from, I can't really comment much on that.  There are always "alternative facts" available and if you want to keep nattering about your WHO straw-man, nobody here can stop you.  Forget the fact that the WHO is responsible for eradicating diseases like smallpox and polio for a second.  We can just ignore them altogether and listen to public health officials in Canada or Australia or wherever else if you want (maybe not Russia or China ).  They're not saying anything different.  We're seeing the infection spread just as they told us it would. 

No offense, but as soon as I started reading "politically compromised entities" I started rolling my eyes.  That's pretty standard qanon or D E E P S T A T E conspiracy sloganeering, and I've entertained that rabbit hole of absurdity plenty of times before.  At its core, it's a lazy, catch-all rebuttal of any/all facts than run contrary to the narrative you're peddling.  You can't trust the WHO, they're compromised.  The ministry of health is corrupt.  Bureaucracy! This is all a ploy by the Rothschild family to ruin the economy and help unseat Trump.   /yawn.  

 

 

Excuse me I am a Rothchild and Trump is no worry to us. Harmless. We are more concerned about Eye. We have people watching him and you. Your assumptions bother us.

[Zeitgeist]

17 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

I'll stick to my years of indoctrination training and experience as an infantryman, to include my CBRN instruction as to the nature of BSL3 pathogens, thanks

If it turns out to be a false alarm, great

But as this State of Emergency has conscripted me in effect,  under national mobilization for biological warfare, I am fully operational as to the war effort right now

The Prime Minister is not a serious person and he is not a military operator, so he has no clue what he's doing, and that's why he's failing to get command of the situation

He is not taking command to fight the de facto war, so Canada is essentially leaderless at this time

I however, am an American, and we are at war, so I simply carry on behind the lines here with Foreign Internal Defense of Canada, as our de facto protectorate

 

Trudeau has done a better job than Trump on handling the pandemic, apart from allowing travel from China and Europe.  Trudeau mishandled too.  

Edited March 27, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[Moonbox]

Rue there's something to be said about bureaucratic ineptitude and political agendas.  I've little faith in the UN myself and don't doubt that the WHO is mired in red tape, but that doesn't mean that everything they do and say is wrong.  They have in the past had tremendous success dealing with other diseases. 

Regardless, we can simply ignore the WHO and the UN altogether and see that health experts around the world are saying the same things.  Even in the US, doctors and epidemiologists etc. have been sounding the alarm for weeks/months, so you're not just dismissing the WHO.  You're dismissing the global health apparatus and doctors everywhere.  Apparently you've heard from "immunologists", but we can't really debate that.  Unless you can source some reputable material we don't really have much to work with there. 

While pointing to South Korea, Singapore and Taiwan DOES show us how things could/should work, you know as well as I do that they're not an option here - not yet.  For reasons both of us have pointed to, those countries are much better prepared.  Among those that weren't (like Europe, Canada and the USA) we're seeing things unfold as the experts you discredit predicted, and it's going to continue to get worse before it gets better. 

As for going back to work, I don't think it's really clear what you're advocating.  I thought I made it pretty clear that some sort of slow and pensive return to work would eventually be possible, but not yet - not while cases are spiking.  I do agree that we can't just shutter the economy for 8 months, but we DO need to be really serious about things over the next couple.  

 

 

Edited March 27, 2020 by Moonbox

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Trudeau has done a better job than Trump on handling the pandemic, apart from allowing travel from China and Europe.  Trudeau mishandled too.  

I don't look to the POTUS to save me, I'm in the Well Regulated Militia, we are ones charged with saving the republic, not the President, he's just the CinC of the Pentagon

[-TSS-]

I just went to my local corner-shop as there are fewer customers at any one time but still people don't seem to understand to keep the two-metre distance. At some time shops will have to make customers queue outside at two-metre intervals and let in only the amount of people who can keep the required distance.

It's quite frightening how paranoid this thing will eventually make all of us. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

22 hours ago, -TSS- said:

No more handshakes after this. It will be especially difficult in some cultures where it is a form.

The Southern-European greetings of kissing on both cheeks and hugging extensively will also be gone. It must be difficult to adapt not those customs any longer.

I think good riddance all this too much touching other people. The Japanese have it right.

Namaste or a wave will have to suffice. 

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, -TSS- said:

It's quite frightening how paranoid this thing will eventually make all of us. 

It's only paranoia when there is no threat

When it is a de facto strategic biological weapon of mass destruction destabilizing the entire planet at once, that's not paranoia

[Moonbox]

3 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

I don't look to the POTUS to save me, I'm in the Well Regulated Militia, we are ones charged with saving the republic, not the President, he's just the CinC of the Pentagon

I can't tell if this is remotely serious, or if you're just a pretty funny guy.  

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Moonbox said:

I can't tell if this is remotely serious, or if you're just a pretty funny guy.  

Deadly serious, I'm cleaning my M14 in the sunshine on my patio right now.  

Old Glory flying in the breeze above.

 

[Moonbox]

Fair enough, and good for you.  That's a bang-bang that will keep people off your lawn.