The Coronavirus

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

The bottom-line, worst-case scenario is obviously that we'd say "To hell with the elderly" and just let the virus run its course and cull the weak/old.  IF we decided to do that, and IF people didn't care about their parents and grandparents - then yeah, the economic impact would be mild.  That's not the reality though.  

The fact our humanity is getting in the way and Kumbaya is rising is the real horror in many people's minds.

So much for the tsunami of hard-boiled populism that's been predicted will wash the face of the planet clear of this sort of virtue.  I guess the shove is proving greater than the push.

Edited March 26, 2020 by eyeball

[Boges]

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

The bottom-line, worst-case scenario is obviously that we'd say "To hell with the elderly" and just let the virus run its course and cull the weak/old.  IF we decided to do that, and IF people didn't care about their parents and grandparents - then yeah, the economic impact would be mild.  That's not the reality though.  

That's in this simplistic capitalistic mind that ONLY old people died or got very sick. 

The majority of the deaths are older people, but some young people are getting sick and dying. And even if you're not dying, if you're being hospitalized you're taking up space in a Hospital that can't go to someone else. 

And if we let huge swaths of the population get sick at the same time how productive a society are we going to be? 

The same Health backlogs would occur that we're fearing now TENFOLD!a. People with Cancer, Trauma, Chornic illness you know the normal stuff wouldn't be able to get their healthcare because the system would be swamped with COVID-19 cases and that would have a cascading effect, and causing more preventable deaths. 

[Rue]

35 minutes ago, Boges said:

That's in this simplistic capitalistic mind that ONLY old people died or got very sick. 

The majority of the deaths are older people, but some young people are getting sick and dying. And even if you're not dying, if you're being hospitalized you're taking up space in a Hospital that can't go to someone else. 

And if we let huge swaths of the population get sick at the same time how productive a society are we going to be? 

The same Health backlogs would occur that we're fearing now TENFOLD!a. People with Cancer, Trauma, Chornic illness you know the normal stuff wouldn't be able to get their healthcare because the system would be swamped with COVID-19 cases and that would have a cascading effect, and causing more preventable 

Young and old people were dying prior to this particular virus for other reasons and at higher rates for other conditions and viruses and we did not try house arrest everyone.  Your discourse  encourages sweeping false assumptions about death and mortality rates and their connection to both  viruses and capitalism. 

[Moonbox]

Well that's a pretty big red herring.  Nobody said young and old people weren't dying before.  We're saying that a lot of young and old people who otherwise would not have died, will end up doing so.  

I mean don't take our word for it.  Just look at Spain and Italy.  Of course if you don't "trust" those numbers, I'm not sure we can really debate much here.  

 

Edited March 26, 2020 by Moonbox

[-TSS-]

The virus seems to be very democratic; it doesn't stop at the plebs. On the contrary, all the elite who travel a lot, who attend a lot of large gatherings, who shake hands and kiss ech other's cheeks countless times seem to be at a risk-zone. Prince Charles, the Monaco Prince, our former President, several celebrities(though some of them may be faking just for the sake of attention-seeking).

[Dougie93]

The Super Cold is actually diabolical by nature, just like its cousin the Common Cold

We can't actually stop the Common Cold, not in million years have we figured it out yet

This bug is that, except we have no built immunity against it like we do with its cousin

[Dougie93]

So a New Jersey man has been charged with terrorism for coughing on another person

Even if you're not spooked by the bug, this is the main reason to hunker down :  to avoid the government when the government is in an hysterical panic

[Rue]

23 hours ago, eyeball said:

I did say growing numbers...

So what is your timeline for the end of your world Rue?  2 weeks, 4 weeks...6 months?

If it all goes away in two weeks or a month I'll be great.

Assuming I'm not killed by this thing and I can do a little refinancing and things are half as good 6 months from now as they were last week and we start growing from there I'll be fine. If I have to get used to the taste of fat capitalists after that then so be it.

Bill Gates is not fat. My time line? Time has no lines for me.  I am already dead and alive both yet neither. I follow the teachings of Star Trek, Bhuddism, Taoism,  fractal theory, Billie Eilish,  Stan Lee, Dougie, and the Marx brothers.

Edited March 26, 2020 by Rue

[Dougie93]

4 minutes ago, Rue said:

Time has no lines for me.  I am already dead and alive both yet neither.

Live in the now like there is no tomorrow, you're never truly living it, until you do

Two way range mortal peril, is actually liberating

This is how we infantrymen get addicted to this shit

Edited March 26, 2020 by Dougie93

[Rue]

37 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Well that's a pretty big red herring.  Nobody said young and old people weren't dying before.  We're saying that a lot of young and old people who otherwise would not have died, will end up doing so.  

 

 

No you do not know that and no Spain and Italy have not proven that. You a lot of inferences and assumptions about cause and effect without proper data to extrapolate patterns based on those assumptions.

Interesting how you refer to Spain and Italy but not South Korea, Singpore and Taiwan. You see what you want to see. You have a preconceived belief and then engage in classic selective bias.

Thanks but all Italy and Spain have shown is that because they have higher rates of older smokers in condensed population zones, any virus or flu outbreak is a big challenge for them.

That was the case before and will be the case long after this particular virus passes.

 

Edited March 26, 2020 by Rue

[Dougie93]

A lot of guys who off themselves when they leave the army do it because they can't handle going back to the drudgery of bourgeois life

They get addicted to this shit, and when they can't have it anymore, they spiral into depression

[Dougie93]

To wit, the RCR Battleschool is life altering, once you pass through the gates, you can never go back

[taxme]

17 hours ago, dialamah said:

What kind of employee are you that your boss can't trust you to do your job being watched all day?

There are plenty of lazy employees out there that do need a boss to keep looking over their shoulders. Some would even say that they are overworked and under paid. That was me! LOL. 

[Argus]

27 minutes ago, Rue said:

No you do not know that and no Spain and Italy have not proven that. You a lot of inferences and assumptions about cause and effect without proper data to extrapolate patterns based on those assumptions.

Interesting how you refer to Spain and Italy but not South Korea, Singpore and Taiwan. You see what you want to see. You have a preconceived belief and then engage in classic selective bias.

We cannot go the route of South Korea, Singapore or Taiwan. We don't have the protective gowns, masks, gloves or ventilators. We're running out of swabs to take samples and running out of chemicals to process those samples. And all of the stuff we need is made in other countries which will no longer export them. It will be months, at the earliest, before we can start to manufacture this stuff in sufficient numbers. Unlike South Korea, Singapore and Taiwan, almost nothing was stockpiled, and we ignored the issue for two months, until it was too late, rather than quickly start stocking up as they did. And even now, privacy concerns and government regulations are stopping us from either warning people about where those who test positive have been, or incorporating other labs and facilities into testing samples.

Edited March 26, 2020 by Argus

[Moonbox]

4 minutes ago, Rue said:

No you do not know that and no Spain and Italy have not proven that. You a lot of inferences and assumptions about cause and effect without proper data to extrapolate patterns based on those assumptions.

Interesting how you refer to Spain and Italy but not South Korea, Singpore and Taiwan. You see what you want to see. You have a preconceived belief and then engage in classic selective bias.

Thanks but all Italy and Spain have shown is that because they have higher rates of older smokers in condensed population zones, any virus or flu outbreak is a big challenge for them.

That was the case before and will be the case long after this particular virus passes.

 

South Korea and Taiwan exist on perpetual wartime footing.  They are under constant threat of attack from their neighbors and have emergency processes and infrastructure in place that makes ours look like kid stuff.  They were among the most aggressive and successful countries at getting people tested and mobilizing a response.  When their government says, "Get tested" or "stay inside" the people just do.  

As for selection bias, you'd do well to look at yourself.  You're freely dismissing information from public health experts around the world (not just the WHO) in favor of whatever "immunologists" you've apparently heard from and whatever talking points you've managed to dig up.  If age or smoking were the main problems with Italy, why has Japan managed so well?  Why is Canada managing so much better than the USA?  Why does Greece, with similar demographics to Italy, have so much lower a rate of infection AND death?  

If I have a selective bias, it's that I'm going to trust that worldwide health experts know what they're doing and are a better source of information than Donald Trump (who is constantly revising his position) or forum posters who've somehow convinced themselves they know more.  I'll admit to that much, at least.  

As for the economic side of the debate, I'm actually educated, trained and employed in finance and not only understand most of it, but also regularly speak with and hear from the macro nerds (who are way smarter than me) and whose work is relied on by folks managing billions.  I CAN comment intelligently on that without simply deferring to the news.  

 

[taxme]

17 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

 Yeah, maybe those people are immune to the virus? Makes me want to write to our PM and to the Premier and say, "Hey Mr. Premier. What's quarantine mean?"

 

They must be immune to the virus. Quarantine means giving the power to our politicians to be able to imprison we the people over such sillyness. Apparently, even the WHO(World Health Organization)has said that quarantine will not work to stop the virus. it's all just a hoax, folks. Believe it or not. The virus is supposed to be everywhere. It could be in everybody's home right now and waiting to pounce on those compliant self isolationists. But the trained seal lemmings out there will probably still do whatever their dear leaders and the media tell them to do. Just my view of things of course.  

[-TSS-]

Travel will never be the same again and a lot of airliners will go bust. Good riddance!

I also have workmates are stuck in Spain at the moment because the borders are closed. They went there like four weeks ago when all this development was already for us all to see. You really must be a moron to have travelled to Italy/Spain in February.

When they get back they'll have to go through a 14-day quarantine.

That will be with all travel for some time to come even after the outbreak is over. Tourism is going to be totally destroyed.

[dialamah]

30 minutes ago, Rue said:

No you do not know that and no Spain and Italy have not proven that

So you think the 8000+ people in Italy and the 4000+ in Spain who've died in the last few weeks might have died anyway?   

I don't blame you for being a bit concerned, I know I am, being in the population cohort most likely to get it "worse", but no need to deny reality.  In about 90 days, this virus has swept around the world and killed more than 23,000 people, and many countries haven't even peeked yet.   Pretending it's kinda like a bad flu and everybody (aka Gov) is overreacting is weird, to say the least. 

I'm ok fighting to the death if government can be shown to be arbitrarily and without justification removing freedoms or imposing martial law or whatever it is that concerns you.  Right now, it looks like government is trying to slow the spread of this disease, begging people to stay home and wash their hands.  But there seem to be too many people vying for the Darwin awards of 2020 to pay attention -including one on this forum, boasting about his intention to socialize cause gov/medical experts are manufacturing a fake crisis.  Throw them folks in jail, lock them at home, I don't care - I don't want to get sick/die and I don't want any of my family or friends to either.   I want Canada to lose as few people as possible to this virus.

[Dougie93]

15 minutes ago, -TSS- said:

Travel will never be the same again and a lot of airliners will go bust. Good riddance!

I also have workmates are stuck in Spain at the moment because the borders are closed. They went there like four weeks ago when all this development was already for us all to see. You really must be a moron to have travelled to Italy/Spain in February.

When they get back they'll have to go through a 14-day quarantine.

That will be with all travel for some time to come even after the outbreak is over. Tourism is going to be totally destroyed.

Don't anticipate contact, just live in the now

There's no sense trying to look through the fog of war

Just let it come and execute the immediate action upon contact

Otherwise, war is boring

So you have to make it fun

Embrace the suck, enjoy the little things, clean sheets, hot showers, warm pussy

[-TSS-]

Viruses don't respect borders but when you keep borders open without any checks you really make things happen quicker than they otherwise would have happened or happened at all.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but it can be said that already in January there were alarming news coming from China and the WHO recommended quarantines of people coming from the risk-zones.

Even here in Finland many idiots traveled to Italy in February when it was already known that may not be a wise thing to do.

[Dougie93]

The Super Cold is insidious, this is the reason it goes all the way down to the Bio Safety Level 3

These sorts of bugs are not kept in the Supermax, but they are kept in the jail right next door

[Dougie93]

The saving grace right now is that the bug is not hunting children

But to watch middle aged people out their prancing around in a fog of it, is like watching people dancing in a minefield

[Dougie93]

To put it in perspective, 40,000 Canadian troops served in Afghanistan, 150 killed;  is a 0.3% death rate

The death rate for infections in Italy right now is 9.5%

This is not an overseas military adventure, this is a real war

[Moonbox]

7 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

To put it in perspective, 40,000 Canadian troops served in Afghanistan, 150 killed;  is a 0.3% death rate

The death rate for infections in Italy right now is 9.5%

This is not an overseas military adventure, this is a real war

It's not a war, and the death rate isn't even close to 9.5%.  The death rate that is being listed is only for recorded cases, and those recorded cases are skewed heavily towards the people with obvious to severe symptoms.  Most of the health professionals are advising it's more like a 1-3% death rate, which is still scary, but the overwhelming majority of infections aren't even being detected.  The detected cases are just the tip of the iceberg, and the worst cases are all included in that.  

Edited March 26, 2020 by Moonbox

[dialamah]

6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

The death rate for infections in Italy right now is 9.5%

For known infections.  I think a lot of people get a mild enough case that they never go anywhere to get counted.  The death rate probably isn't as high as they think.  Or maybe I'm wishful thinking