The Coronavirus

[pinky tuscadero]

3 hours ago, Rue said:

You are making my case to argue we need to get back to work and focus on  hygiene protocols and extensive testing. I think that is where we are headed. Indefinite isolation will not stop transmission only delay it. I get they want time to create better protocols I do..but not without clear and realistic time lines.

Destroying the economy will kill more people and people will figure that out.

I agree with that, start with those in society who are unaccustomed to rigorous hygiene practices

Sorry, that is not racist, just common sense (like the cute cartoons in Europe reminding 'newcomers' rape is not ok),

then continue with a more general education/reminder campaign (including mild exercise, fresh air and sunshine).

 

Unfortunately there is a pervasive attitude today that 'science' means we stop asking questions, Orwell would be proud about that.

Why is there never any real debate, it is always one-side and then mock/attack the opposing view. 

Read about the 'English Hippocrates' & 'Father of Epidemiology' Thomas Syndenham.

He was mocked by the establishment, but got results they could only dream of (not enough to change their practices though, the show must go on!).

 

Thankfully there is some rational thought emerging, but you have to search for it.

 

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German immunologist and toxicologist, Professor Stefan Hockertz, explains in a radio interview that Covid19 is no more dangerous than influenza (the flu), but that it is simply observed much more closely. More dangerous than the virus is the fear and panic created by the media and the „authoritarian reaction“ of many governments. Professor Hockertz also notes that most so-called „corona deaths“ have in fact died of other causes while also testing positive for coronaviruses. Hockertz believes that up to ten times more people than reported already had Covid19 but noticed nothing or very little. link

 

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For virologist and infectious disease specialist Pablo Goldschmidt, the panic that is occurring around the coronavirus strain identified in China (COVID-19) is as unjustified as that created in 2003 with severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) or in 2009 with influenza A virus (H1N1).

"The ill-founded opinions expressed by international experts, replicated by media and social media, repeat the unnecessary panic we have already experienced before. The coronavirus identified in China in 2019 causes no more or less than a severe cold or flu,no different to the cold or flu as we know it," Professor Goldschmidt, also a biochemist, pharmacist and UBA-graduate psychologist, a volunteer at the World Health Organization (WHO), formerly hospitalier of the public hospitals in Paris and author of the book "People and Microbes, Invisible Beings With Which We Live and Sick" (2019). link

 

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German Professor Karin Moelling, former Chair of Medical Virology at the University of Zurich, stated in an interview that Covid19 is „no killer virus“ and that „panic must end“. link

 

Edited March 25, 2020 by pinky tuscadero

[Yzermandius19]

12 minutes ago, Rue said:

I do get the fake reference but the gay one? Lol, never mind. Gay people are behind this? Lol. Ok. I knew they were blamed for aids. I thought we were blaming Chinese bat and snake eaters. I thought XUL started it. I can not keep up. You are innocent XUL. Psst XUL are you gay? Sheesh  I like Jet Li. Seriously my peoplecstartec it with unsanitary bagels.

 

Nukedog is trying to be funny, and succeeding, by pretending the gay's are behind the conspiracy. But mostly he's just using it as an added throw in pejorative, in the sense that I am using it.

Edited March 25, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[eyeball]

Just now, Rue said:

It is just another virus. They come, they mutate and move on. Finish your arguments. Explain what makes this virus the first to have jumped from another species to humans causing the medical issues it has. Good luck on that.

Why, I didn't say that it was.

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Good luck as well but please explain how today's economy can not function if people have viruses.

No, because I didn't say that either.

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Next what I have argued is that shutting down the economy will kill more people than this current virus. If you can not understand that and think that is misguided let me say this..

I fully agree that could happen.

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how the hell do you think we live?

We live by our wits. We innovate, we create, we adapt. It's what we do and have done since we climbed down from the trees.

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Do you think you can live in isolation sitting on hour ass? Really? Talk about misguided.

Not forever but you and Trump and growing numbers of others seem to be saying anything more than a few weeks is worse than forever...Talk about misguided.

[Rue]

8 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I also notice the near complete absence of airline traffic over head and no contrails.

I would have thought the government's chemical spraying program would still be high on the list of essential services.

Why use chemtrails. Any day now you will voluntarily roll your sleeve up.

[Rue]

3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Why, I didn't say that it was.

No, because I didn't say that either.

I fully agree that could happen.

We live by our wits. We innovate, we create, we adapt. It's what we do and have done since we climbed down from the trees.

Not forever but you and Trump and growing numbers of others seem to be saying anything more than a few weeks is worse than forever...Talk about misguided.

Me and Trump...lol..thanks...  You forgot some other people too.

[Rue]

15 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Nukedog is trying to be funny, and succeeding, by pretending the gay's are behind the conspiracy. But mostly he's just using it as an added throw in pejorative, in the sense that I am using it.

Thanks I know. Its funny.  Actually gay people started the joke pointing out how people reacted to aids when it first came out. I laughed my ass off when I first read it.  It helps pointing out how absurd this is becoming with some of the over-reaction.

Edited March 25, 2020 by Rue

[mowich]

On 3/22/2020 at 9:31 AM, bcsapper said:

Yeah, me too.  I didn't skip a beat when I was told to self isolate. 

 

Add me to the list.  My friends don't call me a hermit for no reason.  Got my pup and my cat for company and oodles of great books to read.  Stocked up on groceries long ago and have a neighbor with lots of TP he bought months ago from Costco - good to go, I am.

[Yzermandius19]

2 minutes ago, Rue said:

Thanks I know. Its funny.  Actually gay people started the joke pointing out how people reacted to aids when it first came out. I laughed my ass off when I first read it.  It helps pointing out how absurd this is becoming with some of the over-reaction.

#fakeandgay ftw
 

[eyeball]

6 minutes ago, Rue said:

Get back to me when you have no money and are thrown out of where you live. How will you practice social distancing lining up for food. I am assuming you won't go to a shelter due to the crowding.

I was ordered to stay in my armchair Rue. I'd much rather be out working and still raking in the dough. When the dough and the food I do have runs out I'm assuming I'll still have to eat and I'm betting fat armchair capitalists will look pretty tasty.

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You arm chair communists are something else.Quite the elite bubble you live in.

There is nothing that will make our modern global economy collapse faster than trying to steer around this crisis according to a conservative/progressive ideological struggle. There's enough examples of that in modern times to know that'll turn out.  The rich always forget that social welfare is actually for their protection.

[eyeball]

18 minutes ago, Rue said:

Me and Trump...lol..thanks...  You forgot some other people too.

I did say growing numbers...

So what is your timeline for the end of your world Rue?  2 weeks, 4 weeks...6 months?

If it all goes away in two weeks or a month I'll be great.

Assuming I'm not killed by this thing and I can do a little refinancing and things are half as good 6 months from now as they were last week and we start growing from there I'll be fine. If I have to get used to the taste of fat capitalists after that then so be it.

[eyeball]

31 minutes ago, Rue said:

Why use chemtrails. Any day now you will voluntarily roll your sleeve up.

Sign me up.

[taxme]

On 3/22/2020 at 6:11 PM, Army Guy said:

Not sure if anyone seen this coming in time to be prepared, our economy is now based on just in time delivery, nobody really stocks anything of great numbers, Our greed has pushed most of our industry into 3 rd world countries, because they can make more money doing so, creating this environment where we feel the effects of crises globally...I thought that was we were suppose to embrace was globalism, and everything that brought to us....Canada has a long history with not being prepared, where cheap bitches, more interested in liberal social programs than preparing for anything, like this crises, defense, immigration, coast guard, CSIS, cyber, border security  …. POGY checks and Hockey night in Canada is about it....everything else you can screw with...oh sorry, LGBT , i'm sure I forgot a few letters sorry, and climate change 2 more you can't screw with....

When are the authorities going to decide to shut down all the buses and trains and even taxis from running? I mean what a better way of spreading the virus than packing the people together on a bus. Even going to the store can spread the virus. Hey, what do you have to say about that, eh? 

[mowich]

On 3/23/2020 at 10:35 PM, ProudConservative said:

Look at our communist government acting like a bunch of despotic dictators.

"Liberal bill on coronavirus would give feds power to spend, tax without parliamentary approval"

https://globalnews.ca/news/6720551/justin-trudeau-coronavirus-support-bill

So, in a National Health Crisis, the minority liberal government got together with the Opposition parties and provincial premiers to strike a deal for a financial bail-out package that is much needed to help Canadians and Canadian businesses in these trying times.

Everyone agreed that it was necessary and supported the bill as it was then presented to them.

All federal parties agree to send a set number of MPs to the HoC for an extraordinary recall of Parliament.

And yesterday they gathered expecting that this would be passed in the House and sent to the Senate at the end of the day.

Done deal, right?

Wrong.

Unbeknownst to ALL opposition members the underhanded hubristic MINORITY liberal government saw this Health crisis as a great opportunity to sneak a few little extras into the bill without informing the opposition  - in a bid to give themselves almost unlimited powers over any financial dealings. 

Specifically,  "It allowed the finance minister to tax, spend and borrow with impunity, but without parliamentary approval, until the end of next year." (https://nationalpost.com/opinion/john-ivison-liberals-cant-help-being-opportunistic-with-their-covid-19-aid-bill)

Until DECEMBER 2021 no less.

Rightfully and thankfully for Canadians, Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition united in furor over this unprecedented grab for power. 

Instead of the much vaunted ease of the bill flying through the HoC by the PM, chaos ensued resulting in the suspension of the House until such a time as all parties could agree on a final draft.

Consensus was reached around midnight last night.

The Opposition parties held strong and the final bill deals ONLY with financial aid and the measures necessary to see the money distributed. 

With all my heart, I thank each and every single member of the Opposition for standing strong for Canadian democracy. 

 

[mowich]

10 hours ago, Iceni warrior said:

I mean, come on. Extinction Rebellion, they're not even hiding their intentions.

They want to make the boomers extinct.

"Climate group Extinction Rebellion (XR) say they are investigating a series of “dangerous” coronavirus posts by an account using their name.

An account named XR East Midlands (@xr_east) have caused outrage after tweeting “abhorrent” messaging stating coronavirus is a “cure”.

The account posted a series of covid19 messages over the last 24 hours suggesting the deadly virus was a "cure" for the "disease" caused to the environment by humans.

One post reads: "The undeniable truth is, the Earth is recovering, thanks to Corona."

Another previous Tweet said: "Earth is healing. The air and water is clearing. Corona is the cure. Humans are the disease!"

The posts were accompanied by photoshopped images of street posters stating "Corona is the cure. Humans are the disease" and branded with the Extinction Rebellion logo.

Young Greens (@YoungGreenParty) branded the posts "absolutely abhorrent"

When the rogue account was confronted about the messages by outraged critics they doubled down on their stance.

They stated: "The point of activism is to shock people, out of their complacency.

"Like art, it is meant to provide a different point of view to that we are accustomed.

"We are pointing out that from the perspective of the Earth, humans behave like a disease. The idea is not to be."

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/extinction-rebellion-investigate-offensive-tweets-21754561

[Boges]

35 minutes ago, taxme said:

When are the authorities going to decide to shut down all the buses and trains and even taxis from running? I mean what a better way of spreading the virus than packing the people together on a bus. Even going to the store can spread the virus. Hey, what do you have to say about that, eh? 

Have you been on highways lately? 

I suspect those places aren't all that crowded right now. 

If this wasn't catastrophic to our economy and sanity, it would be an excellent solution to climate change. 

Edited March 25, 2020 by Boges

[eyeball]

21 minutes ago, mowich said:

The Opposition parties held strong and the final bill deals ONLY with financial aid and the measures necessary to see the money distributed.

WHAT!!!! That tears it...where're my AK47 and pyjama's?

Goddamn it. I was really looking forward to that camp commandant posting too.  I had a nice list of local fat capitalists all lined up for removal too 

[dialamah]

1 hour ago, taxme said:

When are the authorities going to decide to shut down all the buses and trains and even taxis from running

Locally, the taxis are voluntarily shutting down, and the buses/skytrain are virtually deserted, because so many people are choosing not to use them.  Buses are having people board from the back door to protect drivers, and not collecting fares, and they are still very empty.  I'm working from home today, deal with many corporate clients through my job and every one of them that I've spoken with this week are also working from home along with their staff.  

Maybe most of us are smart enough to do what we must without government forcing it.  

[taxme]

3 hours ago, Boges said:

Have you been on highways lately? 

I suspect those places aren't all that crowded right now. 

If this wasn't catastrophic to our economy and sanity, it would be an excellent solution to climate change. 

Yup, and the traffic has died down somewhat. The lemmings are listening to their phony politicians and their fake news and are isolating themselves. The politicians want people to stay at home so there can be more bs fed to them on the news hour news. Of course the media will keep telling us all that it is getting bad out there. So stay home. Stay home. The only places where you will get to see crowds of people are on buses or subways. what a way to spread the virus than on a crowded bus or subway. But yet the authorities want to have no more than five people at one time together. Buses have probably 50 people together. What a joke all of this really is. Aw well, lemmings will always be lemmings. Why are they not calling this virus a Chinese virus when that is where it was supposed to have originated from? Racism must fit in there somewhere, eh? Lol. 929,000 Canadians have lost their jobs due to this virus with no doubt more to come. Was it really worth it to lose all those jobs and maybe more? 

Climate change? Just another farce for the lemmings to follow like lemmings. But the one good thing about it all is that I do not have to listen to the doom and gloom climate fanatics anymore, for now.  I suspect that once this bs is allover, climate change and blockades and Trump impeachment will be back on board the propaganda train. 

Edited March 25, 2020 by taxme

[taxme]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

Locally, the taxis are voluntarily shutting down, and the buses/skytrain are virtually deserted, because so many people are choosing not to use them.  Buses are having people board from the back door to protect drivers, and not collecting fares, and they are still very empty.  I'm working from home today, deal with many corporate clients through my job and every one of them that I've spoken with this week are also working from home along with their staff.  

Maybe most of us are smart enough to do what we must without government forcing it.  

I still see buses running around and with people still in them. No doubt some of them maybe spreading the virus. But that is okay. The government in many places are forcing many people to stay at home unless you need to go out for essentials. But how long will that last? Shoppers in grocery stores can still spread the virus. But that is okay.

But it must be great to get to stay at home rather than having to go to drive to work and sit in an office for eight hours with a boss looking over your shoulders, eh? Maybe this will be the new norm and the start of something new? Work at home if one can.  

[dialamah]

1 hour ago, taxme said:

But it must be great to get to stay at home rather than having to go to drive to work and sit in an office for eight hours with a boss looking over your shoulder

What kind of employee are you that your boss can't trust you to do your job being watched all day?

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, taxme said:

I still see buses running around and with people still in them. No doubt some of them maybe spreading the virus. But that is okay. The government in many places are forcing many people to stay at home unless you need to go out for essentials. But how long will that last? Shoppers in grocery stores can still spread the virus. But that is okay.

 Yeah, maybe those people are immune to the virus? Makes me want to write to our PM and to the Premier and say, "Hey Mr. Premier. What's quarantine mean?"

 

[Dougie93]

17 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

 Yeah, maybe those people are immune to the virus? Makes me want to write to our PM and to the Premier and say, "Hey Mr. Premier. What's quarantine mean?"

 

Nobody is immune to the virus, and there are multiple strains and you can get it more than once

80% are "statistically unlikely" to be killed by it, doesn't mean many of them wont get seriously ill, doesn't mean it won't kill any of them

It's a rolling mine field following people around and at random those people will be stepping on mines

They could also being killing their own family members inadvertently

[Dougie93]

Biological agent is insidious and Canadians are totally unprepared for war

We were down at the river today and there was a bunch of parents with kids packed in on the beach on the other side

I just wondered if they would be,  if there was sign saying  : Beach Closed Due To Bio Safety Level 3 Pathogen Contamination

[Dougie93]

Bear in mind that in the army if we saw that sign, we would immediately suit up like this

[Moonbox]

19 hours ago, Rue said:

My debate is with respect MOON because I do get your points if they had clear time lines...because...well ..yes ...if Iread your first two comments that is an indefinite time period and or at least a year.

 We have extensive medical challenges from all kinds of more lethal diseases every second of life and have functioned. Sk we can not overplay the virus's consequences to life engaging in a false assumption that life can not co-exist with this virus unless we are under house arrest.

That is illogical  and South Korea, Taiwan have shown that and it has been illustrated by  common fact as we do not house arrest people for having the  flu which has all the same risks.

Your assumption global economies  can not function if this virus exists is questionable. It has in the past in the world in spite of far more deadly viruses. Remember this is a mutated corona virus whichbis novel in one sense but has also been with us since we started our species in one form or another.

Finally your assumption we need house arrest to prevent a run on respirators is a short term argument only. If that is issue we need  provide everyone a respirator not house arrest them.

Can you please look at the rates of other more deadly infectious diseases and ask, why did we not shut dow  until this one came?

What is so unique about this one...to justify our current response? Can you  or I really say? Are we  buying in to a message that maybe we need to question?  We are asked to believe this virus is so lethal weneed to be under house arrest. Ok short term maybe..long term is respectfully where you lose me. Thanks though for your well stated response and to Z to. Appreciated. 

 

We  don't have a useful point of reference for the current health crisis.  None of the viral outbreaks we've seen over the last 30-40 years have been nearly as serious.  Comparisons to SARS, MERS or H1N1 are worthless because those viruses didn't spread nearly as quickly or as insidiously.  We'd probably have to go back 100 years to the Spanish Flu to come up with a similar pandemic, but both the economy and the health care systems were so different then that it's not that useful either. 

One point that seems to be overlooked by a lot of people is that it's the fact that most people DO NOT get very sick that makes this coronavirus so problematic.  A virus that consistently exhibits early, serious and obvious signs of infection is easy to track and contain.  This one doesn't.  The very fact that it's mild for most people is what allows it to spread undetected and cause such a serious problem.  A terrifying virus like Ebola with an R0 of less than 1.3 (and 50% mortality) is actually far less dangerous than something like like coronavirus, with an R0 of probably 3-4 and a 1-2% mortality rate.  It sounds silly, but, but that's how compound/exponential growth works.  

As for the economic side of things, most people don't really understand how the global system works.  Even BEFORE the imposed shut-downs, companies were facing huge supply-side problems and layoffs were imminent, just on account of things not arriving from China etc.  As the healthcare situations in Italy and Spain spiral out of control (with more to follow), those economies start shutting/slowing down as well which leads to further disruptions.  Fear and anxiety start taking root (reasonably) and that's when people stop deciding to spend money.  What initially started as a supply-shock to the economy is therefore followed by a demand-shock.  We end up in a situation where manufacturers can't build what they planned because parts aren't coming in, and nobody wants to buy half their stuff anyways because they don't know what's going on with their jobs.   

The bottom-line, worst-case scenario is obviously that we'd say "To hell with the elderly" and just let the virus run its course and cull the weak/old.  IF we decided to do that, and IF people didn't care about their parents and grandparents - then yeah, the economic impact would be mild.  That's not the reality though.