Western Society: Over and Out

[drummindiver]

12 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

"War is a continuation of politics by other means." - Carl von Clausewitz

"War: diplomacy by extremis". Forget who said it.

[drummindiver]

12 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Yes. One could say wars are even... civilized.

"What's so civil about war anyway?"

[kimmy]

Regarding population growth, to me it seems like the immediate issue facing Canada is not a shortage of land or resources, but the shortage of land in the places where people need to be.  We have vast amounts of land, we could have hundreds of millions more people living here.  But everybody who comes here (and most of the people who are already here) need to go to the same handful of overcrowded urban areas where housing costs are through the roof.

In places where living is affordable there are few jobs, and in places where there are many jobs the cost of living is extremely high.

During my recent visit to Vancouver I looked into the finances of relocating there... a contact mentioned a position that on paper would have been a raise for me, but after I factored in cost of living, it would actually be a significant pay cut.  Kim City faces challenges as well, particularly a shortage of people to fill menial jobs.  Living here is beyond the reach of anybody making minimum wage or anything close to it. These companies need to raise wages to compete for workers... but their business model doesn't work if the workers get more than minimum wage.

Also during my trip to Vancouver I noticed as I drove toward the city, a continuous string of red tail-lights staring back at me pretty much all the way from Abbotsford to Vancouver. A continuous string of cars over 60km long. People who want to work in Vancouver are spending 2 hours a day driving back and forth so that they can afford a place to live.

Hypothetically, suppose some skilled professional contributes $200,000 a year of productivity to his employer's business.   One day he decides he can't deal with spending 2 hours a day commuting anymore.  He runs some numbers and concludes that he could buy a home in Maidstone Saskatchewan and work from designing web applications. On paper, it would be a huge pay-cut, but the cost of living in Maidstone would be so much lower and not having to spend 2 hours a day commuting, and having a home and a yard for his family, and not having to pay daycare costs, and so on... he concludes that it makes sense.  The value of his new web applications is only $40,000 a year, but for him personally it makes financial sense. For his employer, it's not so good... they lose $200,000 a year of productivity until they find a highly skilled replacement. They might lose business or miss deadlines, or delay other projects.    For the overall economy, the guy's career decision results in a less optimal use of his skills-- he's doing much less valuable work now-- the economy as a whole loses $160,000 a year of productivity because this individual's circumstances made the less-optimal use of his skills more sensible than the more optimal use of his skills.

The growing inability of people to live where they are most needed is a factor that will restrict economic growth from reaching its potential.

 -k

[Guest]

1 hour ago, kimmy said:

Also during my trip to Vancouver I noticed as I drove toward the city, a continuous string of red tail-lights staring back at me pretty much all the way from Abbotsford to Vancouver. A continuous string of cars over 60km long. People who want to work in Vancouver are spending 2 hours a day driving back and forth so that they can afford a place to live.
 -k

I have to say that, after more than twenty years living in the Lower Mainland, the traffic was up there with the rain and the cost of living when it came to the reasons why I took a job in Central Alberta and moved. And I didn't have to do it every day. It's still soul destroying to know you are giving up hours a day to it.  

Its not really any better on weekends, in many areas. 

Edited January 8, 2017 by bcsapper

[blueblood]

59 minutes ago, kimmy said:

Regarding population growth, to me it seems like the immediate issue facing Canada is not a shortage of land or resources, but the shortage of land in the places where people need to be.  We have vast amounts of land, we could have hundreds of millions more people living here.  But everybody who comes here (and most of the people who are already here) need to go to the same handful of overcrowded urban areas where housing costs are through the roof.

In places where living is affordable there are few jobs, and in places where there are many jobs the cost of living is extremely high.

During my recent visit to Vancouver I looked into the finances of relocating there... a contact mentioned a position that on paper would have been a raise for me, but after I factored in cost of living, it would actually be a significant pay cut.  Kim City faces challenges as well, particularly a shortage of people to fill menial jobs.  Living here is beyond the reach of anybody making minimum wage or anything close to it. These companies need to raise wages to compete for workers... but their business model doesn't work if the workers get more than minimum wage.

Also during my trip to Vancouver I noticed as I drove toward the city, a continuous string of red tail-lights staring back at me pretty much all the way from Abbotsford to Vancouver. A continuous string of cars over 60km long. People who want to work in Vancouver are spending 2 hours a day driving back and forth so that they can afford a place to live.

Hypothetically, suppose some skilled professional contributes $200,000 a year of productivity to his employer's business.   One day he decides he can't deal with spending 2 hours a day commuting anymore.  He runs some numbers and concludes that he could buy a home in Maidstone Saskatchewan and work from designing web applications. On paper, it would be a huge pay-cut, but the cost of living in Maidstone would be so much lower and not having to spend 2 hours a day commuting, and having a home and a yard for his family, and not having to pay daycare costs, and so on... he concludes that it makes sense.  The value of his new web applications is only $40,000 a year, but for him personally it makes financial sense. For his employer, it's not so good... they lose $200,000 a year of productivity until they find a highly skilled replacement. They might lose business or miss deadlines, or delay other projects.    For the overall economy, the guy's career decision results in a less optimal use of his skills-- he's doing much less valuable work now-- the economy as a whole loses $160,000 a year of productivity because this individual's circumstances made the less-optimal use of his skills more sensible than the more optimal use of his skills.

The growing inability of people to live where they are most needed is a factor that will restrict economic growth from reaching its potential.

 -k

 It many young people these days have a need and want to be in those large expensive cities and housing values are reflecting that. In the city one can be anonymous and do their own thing, but say living in Maidstone is whole different kettle of fish.  There are no amenities like in the city.  However like you said one has to pencil out the cost benefit analysis and these days a lot of people are sucking up the costs of living in Vancouver vs Maidstone.  

Personally I think technology down the line will let more people work from home which will be a net positive for family life.  

I am from rural Canada and I can assure you it's very tough for someone who's family hasn't been established in the community to have a good time there as the old boys club plays in.  That and unless you own a business are the town lawyer, doctor, police officer, work is hard to come by as there isn't much for industry.  A lot of small towns are becoming sleeper communities for the oil patch and potash mines.  

I also see a lot of young people forgoing getting drivers license and purchasing vehicles when they are living in newly renovated downtown areas with the benefit of walking distance from everything.  

Like I said if the technology from an employer say google let someone work in a small rural community with cheap houses, how many young city people would take on the culture shock and having to drive those same couple hours to enjoy the things they like doing?  

[Charles Anthony]

Folks, 

Avoid excessive quoting. 

 

HINT:  If your commentary contains fewer characters than contained within the post that you are repeating-quoting within your post, then you are quoting excessively. 

[marcus]

There are many variables involved in what looks to be a failing system in the West.

1) The income gap between the wealthy and the middle class continues to grow, which is resulting in the middle class slowly disappearing. 

2) Technology - Many local jobs are being replaced by technology (robots and applications) and technology is also making it easier to hire someone who is willing to do the same job for a lot less. Because the person outside of a Western country can do a lot more with the money they would make in their own country

Our competitive system is based on selfishness. This selfishness is the root of the increasing income gap and the crippling of our environment. I'm not advocating communism, but in order to rescue the current system from a collapse, we need to address this increasing income gap.

I just don't see the select few who are benefiting from this system giving up what they have in order to better the system. Perhaps a collapse is what's needed. Maybe a technology based system will replace what we have now, possibly involving block chain technology like bitcoin and ethereum will begin this revolution.

Edited January 8, 2017 by marcus

[WestCoastRunner]

3 hours ago, blueblood said:

 It many young people these days have a need and want to be in those large expensive cities and housing values are reflecting that. In the city one can be anonymous and do their own thing, but say living in Maidstone is whole different kettle of fish.  There are no amenities like in the city.  However like you said one has to pencil out the cost benefit analysis and these days a lot of people are sucking up the costs of living in Vancouver vs Maidstone.  

I also see a lot of young people forgoing getting drivers license and purchasing vehicles when they are living in newly renovated downtown areas with the benefit of walking distance from everything.  

 

I lived and worked in Ontario for over 40 years and now live on Vancouver island. I did live in Vancouver as well for many years and I would never give up this climate and gorgeous province for anything. 

Vancouver has a lot to offer. A vibrant city, mountains for venturing outdoors, world class restaurants etc. 

Condos can be purchased for a reasonable amount if one is willing to give up the yard. Owning a home is not as much of a goal to many people. If you can make a lot of money in the lower mainland, you can sock it away in rsps and still live close to work. 

If you work in the technology industry, there are many jobs with not enough people to fill them. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, WestCoastRunner said:

I lived and worked in Ontario for over 40 years and now live on Vancouver island. I did live in Vancouver as well for many years and I would never give up this climate and gorgeous province for anything. 

Vancouver has a lot to offer. A vibrant city, mountains for venturing outdoors, world class restaurants etc. 

Condos can be purchased for a reasonable amount if one is willing to give up the yard. Owning a home is not as much of a goal to many people. If you can make a lot of money in the lower mainland, you can sock it away in rsps and still live close to work. 

If you work in the technology industry, there are many jobs with not enough people to fill them. 

Yeah, Vancouver has a lot going for it, I admit.  I used to love the fact I could walk to the water front at White Rock, and drive to Campbell Valley Park in ten minutes, but, I haven't been damp or stuck in a traffic jam for ten years, and in Vancouver, I was frequently both at the same time. 

I look at it this way.  I lived there, experienced that.  Then it was time for something else.  When I retire in a few years, I'll be off to somewhere else again.

Vancouver Island was always a favourite of mine, from Victoria to Port Alice I spent a lot of time there.  If I could afford it, I would put Campbell River on my retirement shortlist.

[WestCoastRunner]

2 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Yeah, Vancouver has a lot going for it, I admit.  I used to love the fact I could walk to the water front at White Rock, and drive to Campbell Valley Park in ten minutes, but, I haven't been damp or stuck in a traffic jam for ten years, and in Vancouver, I was frequently both at the same time. 

I look at it this way.  I lived there, experienced that.  Then it was time for something else.  When I retire in a few years, I'll be off to somewhere else again.

Vancouver Island was always a favourite of mine, from Victoria to Port Alice I spent a lot of time there.  If I could afford it, I would put Campbell River on my retirement shortlist.

Yes. Absolutely. No argument there. For young people making a lot of money and not wanting to live in armpit Canada, Vancouver is a wonderful choice. If you can handle condo living. 

I love the misty rain btw. 

Edited January 9, 2017 by WestCoastRunner

[blueblood]

1 hour ago, WestCoastRunner said:

I lived and worked in Ontario for over 40 years and now live on Vancouver island. I did live in Vancouver as well for many years and I would never give up this climate and gorgeous province for anything. 

And quite a lot of young people are making the same choice you are which is helping inflate the property values.  In the ag industry workers are in huge demand and very hard to come by, it's hard to get good work as it's seasonal and for workers to make 40k stretch in this economy is too much to ask.  The allure of the west coast appeals to so many people which is a big reason property values is where they are at.  In the prairies there are literally villages with respectable houses going for a fraction of what west coast houses are, however to build a new one anywhere your taking a bath.

from what I've seen a person can make money anywhere in Canada, just depends on what skills are in demand for the area you live in.  I can put up with the 40 below weather as the freedom of living in the country and being your own boss is worth it.

BC is a very nice province and imo an urban dwellers paradise as you can live with amenities and have really scenic outdoors close by.  

[OftenWrong]

14 hours ago, drummindiver said:

"What's so civil about war anyway?"

It keeps the peace. And where there is none, it makes it.

[drummindiver]

10 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

It keeps the peace. And where there is none, it makes it.

It's a line from a GnR song.

[drummindiver]

13 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Vancouver Island was always a favourite of mine, from Victoria to Port Alice I spent a lot of time there.  If I could afford it, I would put Campbell River on my retirement shortlist.

My plan was ToFino,   but prices made it unachievable. I ended up on the Bras d'Or Lakes.  You may have heard of the area as  the Farmers Daughter is a few miles from my cottage offered land for workers.  

Crazy they say no jobs but a business has to go to this length to get workers.

Edited January 9, 2017 by drummindiver

[OftenWrong]

7 hours ago, drummindiver said:

It's a line from a GnR song.

Probably a cover piece

[H10]

West won't end, it will just gradually continually decline.

[Rue]

10 hours ago, hernanday said:

West won't end, it will just gradually continually decline.

West is  declining but not gradually. I think if you ask his wife Kim, Kayne is going downhill pretty fast.

You ask me grabbing the microphone from Taylor was the beginning of the end.

Oh you meant Western society, silly me.

Listen just to break it to you I think most people realize from history, archeology, anthropology, studying art, etc., that all societies come and go as do the humans who are art of these societies. Thanks for pointing out the obvious.

Now if you ask me by the way, millions of years from now Celine Dion's voice and that damn Titanic song will still be continuing on and on. So will Wayne Newton's "Dunka Shen Darlin"  and Johny Mathis' "Chances Are". There is a direct correlation between that which annoys and that which lasts forever.

Now if Western Society does have any thing that should be carried on from it long after its demise it is these songs:

"Pretty Woman" by Roy Oribison

"Last Tango in Paris" theme song by Gato Barbieri

"A Boy Named Sue" by Johny Cash

" I Shot the Sheriff" by either Bob Marley or Jimmy Cliff

the movie "To Have and Have Not" with Bogart, Bacall,Walter Brennan

 the movie " Wizard of OZ"

the movie "10 Commandments

any cowboy movie of  John Wayne

the movie " Great Escape"

the US Engineering Corps films of the concentration camps at the end of WW2

Chevy Pick Up 1956

Chevy Impala 1962

Ford Edsel

all DC and Marvel comics up until 2000

the posters of Jane Fonda as Barbarella, Diana Rigg as Mrs. Emma Peel in the Avengers, any of James Bond original Sean Connery

Star Trek phaser, insigna and lock of Lt. Uhuru's hair

clone of Raquel Welch

one Dinky and one corgi and one matchbox toy car

an autographed copy of the signatures of the Monkees

a pair of Mary Tyler Moore's underwear

a Montreal Canadiens sweater

a tab of LSD

one magic mushroom

one alka seltzer

one marijhuana leaf

one MacDonald's hamburger (no problem they do not age)

 

 

[DogOnPorch]

Rumor has it: West for Prez...not a bad move. He's crazy enough to follow Trump...lol.

[Michael Hardner]

Rue - your Christmas list is impressive but two problems: Christmas was last month and you're Jewish.

 

Here's a dreidel:

 

[eyeball]

On 1/9/2017 at 6:44 AM, drummindiver said:

My plan was ToFino,   but prices made it unachievable.

Probably just as well, the snowflakes would have driven you postal.

[Rue]

20 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Rue - your Christmas list is impressive but two problems: Christmas was last month and you're Jewish.

 

Here's a dreidel:

 

See now the demise of Western Society is a complex issue. Some would argue Christmas, which when you think about it is actually a pagan holiday is part of that demise celebrating materialism and the need to define joy, love, happiness by mass consumer spending and pursuit of material goods.

I personally believe the beginning of the end of Western society began with Celine Dion's Titanic song.

On a more serious note, its probably an interesting debate to try argue when the demise of a society actually begins. Maybe it begins at the moment of its inception and not any one particular event.

Even trying to guess when a society starts is hard because its a fluid definition where the starting point is only an approximation and depends on what standard of measurement you use, i.e.,archeological, anthropological, genetic, political, religious, etc.

I think and you can correct me if I am wrong our Western Society is said to start with the Greeks and "democracy" and so Socrates, Plato, Aristotle and some over-friendly guys wrestling in a gymnasium somewhere in Athens.

Others argue it begins in Europe with the monarchs and others at the creation of the Catholic Church and Pope.

Corruption, erosion or compromising of moral or ethical values in any society, isn't it constant? I would use Freud to argue all humans to create any society start that society when they are sufficiently able to repress their primal instincts to prevent rape, incest, murder so as to be able to live in a group and organize things and share things but that this repression is a constant battle and every time our primal instincts get the better of us we take a step back (demise) and every time we can overcome them we take a step forward (advancement).

I believe technically every time someone commits a crime and it remains unresolved, it contributes towards the demise of society,

Some argue even if you arrest and hold people responsible for crimes, they still by their existence contribute to the demise of society.

Moral and ethical standards, standards of "normal" constantly change.

In the 50's homosexuality was considered a mental illness, today simply a lifestyle. Some argue that by making it an acceptable lifestyle we contribute to the demise of our society, others say, no we contribute to the advancement (enlightenment) of our society.

Its clearly a subjective determination. Genetically we are constantly mutating to the environment snf conditions around us. That process of selectivity may be making us capable of withstanding certain things (stronger) but weaker to other things.

So whose measurement do you use and what method do you choose to measure demise or enlightenment?

In one sense everyone feels their society is decaying. It is. I think society rots and grows at the same time. I think out of all life structure's rot, comes new life and their is a constant continuum and cycle of birth, decay, death, birth from the rot of the death, and so on.

So in summary I think saying any society decaying or going down hill is trite. Anything that deals with life comes and goes and comes and goes. Its impossible to have a stagnant society that never changes.

Some would argue but yah what about say ultra-orthodox Hasidic Jews or Amish people, haven't they for example been able to live in a society that never changes and is static? Is it?

I would argue in say closed fundamentalist religious sects or cult groups, inevitably the outside world of changes seeps in. Its slow, maybe slower than with the rest of us, but it inevitably leaks and seeps in like water returning where it was dredged or dammed from.

Look at the Amish in say Kitchener-Waterloo. They do sell their produce to outsiders. They do have to have interaction with the outside world on certain issues. Likewise ultra Orthodox Jews who have to get their diamonds to trade from the outside. No one is an island isolated from changes.

What is fascinating though is to see for example fundamentalist extremist Muslim power networks trying to keep their people from what I call the creep of MacDonald-Coca Cola-Nikes-Beyonce disease or Western social influence. The cell phones are carrying this disease's germs into what was once villages and towns isolated from Beyonce's swaying hips.

It could be argued radical Muslim terrorism is a last ditch attempt to try block out this spread of Beyonce hip movement and its not suceeding.

Is Beyonce the real agent of demise to the Muslim fundamentalist world> Does Coca Cola and Big Macs not art, music, change the society for better or worse?

I leave that to Mr. Michael H who I know understands the implications of Beyonce's hips and their role in the demise or is it enlightenment of Western society.

[Goddess]

1 hour ago, Rue said:

Corruption, erosion or compromising of moral or ethical values in any society, isn't it constant? I would use Freud to argue all humans to create any society start that society when they are sufficiently able to repress their primal instincts to prevent rape, incest, murder so as to be able to live in a group and organize things and share things but that this repression is a constant battle and every time our primal instincts get the better of us we take a step back (demise) and every time we can overcome them we take a step forward (advancement).

I agree with you here, except....

.....what some would consider advancement, others would not.

For instance, when the interwebs first became popular, the cult I was in put out many warnings to "Never go on the internet!  Full of bad things!  Do not ever go on the internet!!"  Obviously this was to protect themselves, because people were starting to find out all their dirty laundry - via the 'webs.

As the years went by, the internet became a part of life - we need it to work, children need it for school.  At some point, they had to acknowledge that they could not just tell people not to go on the internet.  So they started warning about WHERE we were allowed to go on the internet.

In the last 20 years, many in the cult have found out the truth about it and it's really only growing in areas of the world where internet access is not available.  (A PEW study showed that this cult has one of the lowest retention rates for born-ins.)

I consider this an advancement.  The cult leaders of course, do not.

Same for your example of homosexuality.  I consider that we have made advancements in our views on that.  I'm sure many religious fundies feel it is the demise of our society.

(I think I just aged myself in this post )

[jbg]

On 1/7/2017 at 0:02 PM, bcsapper said:

Yeah, I can see that.  I didn't read the article, but that we are all doomed is no surprise to me.

 

Let's just all throw in the towel! </sarcasm>

[Rue]

On ‎2017‎-‎04‎-‎10 at 11:47 AM, jbg said:

Let's just all throw in the towel! </sarcasm>

I provide 2 references to explain why we hear and believe and are confronted by alarmist psychology or doomsday scenarios.The only sure thing is that as long as humans breath they will predict the demise of us all. The only other sure thing is, if it happens, none of us will be around to say I told you so.

 

http://llewellyn.com/journal/article/2058

I know this sounds harsh, but the fact is that many people—and I am tempted to say most—prefer to accept ideas on a purely intuitive level rather than on a rational one. As such, for many, end-times prophecies make perfect sense not because their proponents have in any way laid out a good, logical case for their beliefs or have demonstrated an impressive track record of making accurate predictions in the past, but because we too often “feel” something to be true. As is often seen in the political arena—especially during an election cycle—it is perception that frequently trumps reality, which makes people make decisions based not upon the facts but upon rhetoric and hyperbole, thereby short circuiting the ability to determine truth with any degree of accuracy or consistency.

 

http://notrickszone.com/2011/02/09/alarmist-psychology-why-they-need-doomsday-scenarios/#sthash.g6Romz07.dpbs

Why are many people hooked on doomsday prophesies?

A lot of people are simply malcontent with the world and the direction of the human race and society, and so it appeals to them that it could get wiped out, and thus clear the way for a fresh start – one that would reflect their own view of how the world ought to be. Many loathe today’s modern prosperity, and would like nothing more than to change it radically. So there is a deep and dark desire to rid the place of competitors. This deep passion to do so  appears to be evolutionary and biological, Bloom calls it the passion for disaster:

Surely biology and evolution must have a greater reason for holding on to such a deep disaster passion.”

To illustrate the dynamics of this kind of thinking, Bloom describes a German experiment conducted in the late 1940s where 15 brown rats, all strangers to each other, were put inside a box. At first the rats cowered in corners, afraid of each other. But over time things changed. Two of the rats eventually paired up and soon eliminated the rest. Bloom writes:

The rats had cleared the new territory of competitors, transforming the cage into a spacious land of milk and honey for themselves. A new promised land. Now, they could found a tribe that might if left to its own devices thrive for generations to come. A tribe that would carry the parental line of genes.

How does this relate to the popularity of notions that the world is about to end? Think for a second. Every millennial end-of-the-world movement has a hitch. We’ll all be broiled, fried, or caught in the crossfire of apocalyptic battles and plague. WE’LL be wiped out. But not the true believers. They’ll be saved. And they’ll have a fresh new world, a world purged of us, a world they can turn into their own private paradise.

Apocalypse-beliefs, I suspect, are land-clearance and land-grab dreams in disguise-dreams left over from our time as beasts.”