Goddess Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 1 minute ago, dialamah said: Many Egyptians viewed that as the West's desire to keep them oppressed under a theocracy that was controlled by the US. That's my point. Neither side can insist that the other judge their intentions as always good, while at the same time always attributing bad intentions to the other side. I still say the West needs to stop interferring because we just have no idea how deep the culture and the religion go, nor do we understand all the nuances of it. If that means declining to help even when we are specifically asked to intervene, then so be it. Better to not get blamed when things don't go as expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Just now, Goddess said: That's my point. Neither side can insist that the other judge their intentions as always good, while at the same time always attributing bad intentions to the other side. I still say the West needs to stop interferring because we just have no idea how deep the culture and the religion go, nor do we understand all the nuances of it. If that means declining to help even when we are specifically asked to intervene, then so be it. Better to not get blamed when things don't go as expected. One quickly learns that Islam and its followers are blameless for fitnah. That's a sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Reformers in Islam are judged as Islamophobes. Don't pretend they aren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said: Yes, that's correct. So there IS a 'reformed Islam' movement, there is a point to reform, and that is done through western platforms. And so - YES - "the gist of her article seems to be about defeating the culture that uses the book as justification." You say "It says no such thing." but I don't see how. You're really detailing what I said in my post. You have invented a pretext to excuse the book. She does not say anything about it being a culture which uses the books as justification. On the contrary, she points out that the foundational texts of the religion are extremely violent and contain much that accepts, allows and encourages violence against non-believers or anyone who transcribes its rules and laws. Muhammad tried for a while to gain converts in Mecca, and when that didn't work he went to Medina and built an army and started making converts at swordpoint. His earlier talk of tolerance disappeared, and now his words were all of war and forced conversion, of death and destruction on unbelievers. And according to Islamic scholars, the precedence in the book is by age. His earlier words are superseded by his later words. How you can pretend this has not influenced the mindset of the followers of this book is simply beyond me. If you tell a Muslim that the Qran and Muhammed's life have not influenced them they'd be highly offended. Yet you ignore the impact of such a book even though the majority of it concerns how to deal with unbelievers. Edited September 21, 2017 by Argus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 1 minute ago, Argus said: You have invented a pretext to excuse the book. She does not say anything about it being a culture which uses the books as justification. On the contrary, she points out that the foundational texts of the religion at extremely violent and contain much that accepts, allows and encourages violence against non-believers or anyone who transcribes its rules and laws. Muhammad tried for a while to gain converts in Mecca, and when that didn't work he went to Medina and built an army and started making converts at swordpoint. His earlier talk of tolerance disappeared, and now his words were all of war and forced conversion, of death and destruction on unbelievers. And according to Islamic scholars, the precedence in the book is by age. His earlier words are superseded by his later words. How you can pretend this has not influenced the mindset of the followers of this book is simply beyond me. If you tell a Muslim that the Qran and Muhammed's life have not influenced them they'd be highly offended. Yet you ignore the impact of such a book even though the majority of it concerns how to deal with unbelievers. 'School' in many Muslim countries consists of memorizing the Quran front to back...back to front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 1 minute ago, Argus said: 1. You have invented a pretext to excuse the book. 2. She does not say anything about it being a culture which uses the books as justification. 3. How you can pretend this has not influenced the mindset of the followers of this book is simply beyond me. 1. No I have not. Just because I say that the book isn't THE cause, that it doesn't have all the blame doesn't mean I excuse it. My complaint is that people put too much emphasis on the book, and also engage in circular explanations that they use to justify dehumanization of Muslims. 2. Yes, she speaks specifically about fundamentalism, which is a subculture. 3. See #1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: 1. No I have not. Just because I say that the book isn't THE cause, that it doesn't have all the blame doesn't mean I excuse it. My complaint is that people put too much emphasis on the book, and also engage in circular explanations that they use to justify dehumanization of Muslims. 2. Yes, she speaks specifically about fundamentalism, which is a subculture. 3. See #1. Is Ms Hirsi Ali an Islamophobe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 (edited) On 9/19/2017 at 4:20 PM, DogOnPorch said: Islam is a religion... It's just a thing. That said, so is capitalism and ideology. Its what people do with things that matters most. The extreme radical manner by which western governments have exported these around the world comes with consequences. It's no surprise some of these have been just as extreme and radical. Islamophobia is just a thing. That said.... Edited September 21, 2017 by eyeball Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Just now, eyeball said: It's just a thing. That said, so is capitalism. Its what people do with things that matters most. The extreme radical manner by which western governments have exported it around the world comes with consequences. It's no surprise some of these have been just as extreme and radical. Islamophobia is just a thing. That said.... You are also free to lie in order to protect Islam from its critics...as it really needs lies to assist it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: You are also free to lie in order to protect Islam from its critics...as it really needs lies to assist it. So do the things we do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 1 minute ago, eyeball said: So do the things we do. We = my wife and I...not you and I. But thanks for the...errr...offer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 2 hours ago, Goddess said: It seems they are off to a good start with making some reforms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Tunisia Reading the above, I understand a bit better how difficult these changes will be and the time it takes to change people's views. We can thank the West for those kind of changes...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 4 minutes ago, betsy said: We can thank the West for those kind of changes...... Damn straight. The West gave everything that folks hold dear. But, if you do a search, you'll see Islam taking credit for inventing pretty much everything. The 'Golden Age of Islam'...much touted...was the period where all the booty from the military conquests was brought to Baghdad and environs for processing. Yeah...some good stuff was in the loot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 57 minutes ago, Goddess said: That's my point. Neither side can insist that the other judge their intentions as always good, while at the same time always attributing bad intentions to the other side. I still say the West needs to stop interferring because we just have no idea how deep the culture and the religion go, nor do we understand all the nuances of it. If that means declining to help even when we are specifically asked to intervene, then so be it. Better to not get blamed when things don't go as expected. I am going to play devil's advocate here. Do you really think selling arms to corrupt regimes in the ME is attributing to good intentions from the West or toppling their democratically elected governments? I give you a simple answer for both. It's all about money. Not democracy, poor human rights, etc, etc. For the first part selling arms or aircrafts to these countries not only generates revenue but also creates jobs. But is it really worth it when it backfires? Seems like we never seem to want from failed foreign policies in that region when it backfires....Guess what repeating those policies and expecting a different result is a sign of insanity.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIK Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 If Islam is the way, why are many muslims trying to get to a christian country? Can anyone answer that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Just now, PIK said: If Islam is the way, why are many muslims trying to get to a christian country? Can anyone answer that? How long is a piece of string? For the same reason a jew, budha or atheist try to get to a christian country. Can you answer that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 I will open an Islamic center in Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 26 minutes ago, PIK said: If Islam is the way, why are many muslims trying to get to a christian country? Can anyone answer that? Because you invade and steal from Muslim countries and Muslims are coming there to take their rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 1 minute ago, Altai said: Because you invade and steal from Muslim countries and Muslims are coming there to take their rights. I see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIK Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Altai said: Because you invade and steal from Muslim countries and Muslims are coming there to take their rights. And when did canada invade? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 On 19/09/2017 at 7:20 PM, DogOnPorch said: Islam is a religion and I posted the line in the Quran that encourages it (lying to infidels). Too bad 4 you. You are still trying to incite and wilfully promote hatred against an identifiable group in Canada. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 2 hours ago, PIK said: And when did canada invade? Afghanistan, Syria 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, jacee said: Afghanistan, Syria Afghanistan was a legal operation, blessed by the UN. We have not invaded Syria, most of which is still under the control of its evil government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 On 19/09/2017 at 7:26 PM, DogOnPorch said: The Arabs started the Arab Israeli Conflict. That's debatable, in another appropriate thread. Go start one. How is that relevant to Islamophobia in Canada? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 What you see is leftists continuing to try to make excuses for the violence of the Muslim world. Whatever they may say about the West's intervention or involvement there, well, the West has intervened and involved itself throughout the third world. Only in the Muslim world do we see this kind of fanatic violence, from the Philippines and Indonesia to Sudan and Tunisia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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