DogOnPorch Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Just now, Goddess said: It will take time to change people's views. Time and a concerted effort by moderate Muslims. I really feel moderates need to speak up more. This is the time. I understand about this, because I'm considered an "apostate" in my former religion. When I found out it was all bull$hit, it was such a relief. Throwing off the physical shackles of it is the easier part, IMO. The harder part is getting mentally free of it - it takes a concerted effort to train your mind to think along different lines, create new neural pathways in your brain and not continue down the thought patterns of previous beliefs. Are you going to a Tunisian beach resort to show your trust in the new peaceful Islam? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: It is important to lie in order to protect Islam...and here's an example. Islam in Europe?? What problems?? Misrepresenting what I said is lying. Saying other people lie when you lie yourself is called hypocrisy. Nowhere did I say there are no problems. This is an example of another low-quality post that provides a constant level of whitenoise to this forum. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Just now, DogOnPorch said: Are you going to a Tunisian beach resort to show your trust in the new peaceful Islam? LOL No, it's still obvious to me that the religion needs reform badly and there is a lot of resistance to this, and not enough moderates speaking out. But I'm not going to knock Tunisia for trying to make some strides. As I said, I hope they continue down the path, and not backslide when and if a different government takes over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Just now, Michael Hardner said: Misrepresenting what I said is lying. Saying other people lie when you lie yourself is called hypocrisy. Nowhere did I say there are no problems. This is an example of another low-quality post that provides a constant level of whitenoise to this forum. You're free to protect Islam...I'm free to be its critic. Unless that's a sin to you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 1 minute ago, Goddess said: LOL No, it's still obvious to me that the religion needs reform badly and there is a lot of resistance to this, and not enough moderates speaking out. But I'm not going to knock Tunisia for trying to make some strides. As I said, I hope they continue down the path, and not backslide when and if a different government takes over. I know...let's tear down that statue of Stonewall Jackson...that'll show 'em. You keep hoping...I'll be over here whenever needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 19 minutes ago, dialamah said: It is, in my opinion, more accurate to say that as Western intervention continued in Muslim-majority countries, the people there began to view "the West" as a problem and that's where the vilification arose from. Getting rid of the victim mentality and not blaming the West for all their problems would be another factor in how well any reform goes in Islam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Just now, Goddess said: Getting rid of the victim mentality and not blaming the West for all their problems would be another factor in how well any reform goes in Islam. Keep in mind Islam refers to all non-Muslim regions as the House of War...not the house of reform...not the house of integrating with kafir and making friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said: You're free to protect Islam...I'm free to be its critic. Unless that's a sin to you... Ignoring valid criticism of yourself, and continuing to misrepresent what I post. It's not a 'sin' to be a hypocrite but there's this thing about people who live in glass houses not throwing stones. Your posts are a constant stream of moralizing, and yet you act immorally by misrepresenting others and refusing to accept criticism. There's really no discussion possible there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: You keep hoping...I'll be over here whenever needed. One of my favourite Canadians: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Just now, Michael Hardner said: Ignoring valid criticism of yourself, and continuing to misrepresent what I post. It's not a 'sin' to be a hypocrite but there's this thing about people who live in glass houses not throwing stones. Your posts are a constant stream of moralizing, and yet you act immorally by misrepresenting others and refusing to accept criticism. There's really no discussion possible there. No worries. I've already given you the ol' Mene, mene, tekel, Upharsin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 1 minute ago, Goddess said: One of my favourite Canadians: Stuart was a friend of mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Just now, DogOnPorch said: Stuart was a friend of mine. Coolio. I actually cried when he died. The only other celebrity that affected me that way was Princess Di. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Goddess said: Coolio. I actually cried when he died. The only other celebrity that affected me that way was Princess Di. Indeed a class act. His shows were always fun....like Nardwuar's. Edited September 21, 2017 by DogOnPorch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 6 minutes ago, Goddess said: Getting rid of the victim mentality and not blaming the West for all their problems would be another factor in how well any reform goes in Islam. Not having Western countries organize coups, set up dictators and drop bombs on their countries would go a long way to helping them get rid of their "victim mentality". I agree we can't take all the blame for all the instability in the Middle East, but pretending our activities have had no influence on their perceptions of us is wrong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, dialamah said: Not having Western countries organize coups, set up dictators and drop bombs on their countries would go a long way to helping them get rid of their "victim mentality". I agree we can't take all the blame for all the instability in the Middle East, but pretending our activities have had no influence on their perceptions of us is wrong. i never said that. I just am saying that they cannot be blaming the West 100%. I agree the West should stay out much more than they have. But I also feel that some of the "bungles" attributed to the West were not so much a result of bad intentions on the part of the West, as they just grossly underestimated the extent of religious fanaticism in those countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, dialamah said: Not having Western countries organize coups, set up dictators and drop bombs on their countries would go a long way to helping them get rid of their "victim mentality". I agree we can't take all the blame for all the instability in the Middle East, but pretending our activities have had no influence on their perceptions of us is wrong. Exactly right! The average Joe in the West doesn't care how the oil finds its way to their car. They are not interested in who is killing who as long as they get the fuel and keeps it running. But I am sick and tired of listening to these tiresome preachings and soundbites about establishing democracy in the Middle East, human rights, women and gay rights and yet we have hypocrites like POTUS who signs a 110 billion dollar arms contract with Saudi Arabia. Was that because women cannot drive in Saudi Arabia? Noooo. Is that because POTUS is infatuated with the attire of the sheikh or their sword dance? Nooo. It's retro dollar stupid...The hypocrisy stinks and when you state the facts as it is they label you as an anti western. There are so many dictators around the world but hey we are not interested in them because they don't have oil... Edited September 21, 2017 by kactus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, kactus said: Exactly right! The average Joe in the West doesn't care how the oil gets their car. They are not interested in who is killing who as long as they get the fuel and keeps it running. But I am sick and tired of listening to these tiresome preachings and soundbites about establishing democracy in the Middle East, human rights, women and gay rights and yet we have hypocrites like POTUS who signs a 110 billion dollar arms contract with Saudi Arabia. Was that because women cannot drive in Saudi Arabia? Noooo. Is that because POTUS is infatuated with the attire of the sheikh or their sword dance? Nooo. It's retro dollar stupid...The hypocrisy stinks. There are so many dictators around the world but hey we are not interested in them because they don't have oil... Ya, it bothers me that we brought over all the Syrians, but said a big "F*&%$K You!" to the Yazidis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, Goddess said: Ya, it bothers me that we brought over all the Syrians, but said a big "F*&%$K You!" to the Yazidis. Last time I checked the majority of Syrian refugees are in another part of the world. So your assertion that "we (as western countries) brought over all the Syrians" is false.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War Refugees of the Syrian Civil War Total population: 5,165,502 refugees (registered, August 2017)[1]6,130,000–6,320,000 refugees (based on UN estimate, March 2016)[2] Regions with important populations (over 1,000 refugees)[a] Turkey 3,079,914 (registered as of July 2017)[3] Lebanon 2.2 million (estimated arrivals as of December 2015) 1,001,051 (registered)[4] Jordan 1,265,000 (census results as of November 2015)[5] 661,114 (registered July 2017)[6] Germany 600,000 (2014 to late 2016)[7] 429,000 (registered by late 2016) 456,023 (applicants by February 2016) Saudi Arabia 500,000 (estimated overstays as of 2016)[8][9] United Arab Emirates 242,000 (estimated overstays as of 2015)[10][11] Iraq (incl. Iraqi Kurdistan) 230,836 (registered)[12] Kuwait 155,000+[8][13] (estimated overstays to June 2015) Egypt 117,702 (registered by March 2016) 122,228 (UNHCR estimate as of July 2017)[14] 500,000 (Egypt MFA estimate as of September 2016) Sweden 110,333 (applicants to December 2015)[15] Hungary 72,505 (applicants to December 2015)[15] Canada 62,000+ (applicants to Feb 2017) 43,000+ (approved as of Feb 2017) 40,081 (resettled as of Feb 2017)[16][17] Croatia 55,000 (estimated as of September 2015)[18] 386 (applicants to December 2015)[15] Greece 54,574 (estimated in country May 2016)[19] 5,615 (applicants to December 2015)[15] Austria 45,827 (applicants to April 2017)[15] Algeria 43,000 (estimated as of November 2015) 5,721 (registered as of November 2015)[20] Qatar 40,000 (estimated overstays 2015)[8] 42 (registered)[8] Netherlands 31,963 (applicants to July 2016)[15] Libya 26,672 (registered as of December 2015)[21] Armenia 20,000 (estimated as of October 2016)[22] Denmark 19,433 (applicants to December 2015)[15] Bulgaria 17,527 (applicants to December 2015)[15] United States 16,218 (resettled by November 2016)[23] Belgium 16,986 (applicants to July 2016)[15] Norway 13,993 (applicants to December 2015)[15] Singapore 13,856 (applicants to December 2015)[15] Switzerland 12,931 (applicants to July 2016)[15] Serbia (incl. Kosovo) 11,831 (applicants to February 2016)[15] France 11,694 (applicants to July 2016)[15] United Kingdom 9,467 (applicants to July 2016)[15] 5,102 (resettled as of August 2015)[24] Brazil 9,000 (approved)[25] 2,097 (as of November 2015)[26] Spain 8,365 (applicants to December 2015)[15] Russia 7,096 (overstays in residence to April 2016)[27] Australia 6,000 (resettled to Jan 2017)[28] Malaysia 5,000 (estimated in August 2015)[citation needed] Tunisia 4,000 (September 2015)[29] Cyprus 3,527 (applicants to December 2015)[15] Bahrain 3,500 (estimated June 2015)[8] Argentina 3,000 (approved)[30] Montenegro 2,975 (applicants to December 2015)[15] Italy 2,538 (applicants to December 2015)[15] Romania 2,525 (applicants to December 2015)[15] Macedonia 2,150 (applicants to December 2015)[15] Malta 1,222 (applicants to December 2015)[15] Somalia 1,312 (as of January 2016) Finland 1,127 (as of December 2015)[15] Language: Arabic, Kurdish, Turkish, Armenian, Aramaic Religion: Sunni Islam, Christianity, Shia Islam, Yazidism, Druze Edited September 22, 2017 by kactus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Came across this video which shows the breakdown of Syrian refugees by % of population and GDP. http://www.unhcr.org/uk/news/videos/2017/2/58b3f4714/which-countries-host-the-most-refugeesquest.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 10 minutes ago, Goddess said: i never said that. I just am saying that they cannot be blaming the West 100%. I agree the West should stay out much more than they have. But I also feel that some of the "bungles" attributed to the West were not so much a result of bad intentions on the part of the West, as they just grossly underestimated the extent of religious fanaticism in those countries. I agree that mutual misunderstanding is a factor. One small example is that Egyptians hate Obama/Clinton because when they rioted against Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood, the official word out of Washington was to give the democratically elected government a chance. When Sisi organized the coup, the West condemned that. Many Egyptians viewed that as the West's desire to keep them oppressed under a theocracy that was controlled by the US. Were they right? Or was Obama simply trying to support democracy in the region? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 16 hours ago, Michael Hardner said: What is her call to action ? Did you read the article? Her call to action has been the need to reform Islam, to aid reformers, to call out the 'medina' Muslims. It is a call for progressives to abandon their unthinking support for Islam and their attacks on those who criticize it, attacks even on reformers who are Muslims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 20 minutes ago, Goddess said: Ya, it bothers me that we brought over all the Syrians, but said a big "F*&%$K You!" to the Yazidis. We wouldn't want to upset our Muslim hosts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 34 minutes ago, dialamah said: Not having Western countries organize coups, set up dictators and drop bombs on their countries would go a long way to helping them get rid of their "victim mentality". I agree we can't take all the blame for all the instability in the Middle East, but pretending our activities have had no influence on their perceptions of us is wrong. So...when the Communists set their eyes on Iran as the USSR's latest R...the 'West' should have allowed the theft of property and handed it all over to Russia. Excellent idea...for a Communist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 1 minute ago, Argus said: Did you read the article? Her call to action has been the need to reform Islam, to aid reformers, to call out the 'medina' Muslims. It is a call for progressives to abandon their unthinking support for Islam and their attacks on those who criticize it, attacks even on reformers who are Muslims. Yes, that's correct. So there IS a 'reformed Islam' movement, there is a point to reform, and that is done through western platforms. And so - YES - "the gist of her article seems to be about defeating the culture that uses the book as justification." You say "It says no such thing." but I don't see how. You're really detailing what I said in my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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