Islamophobia in Canada

[hot enough]

See, evidence is good, Betsy. 

[hot enough]

11 minutes ago, betsy said:

Sarcasm doesn't work on me, HE.  

I noticed that.

I think perhaps it whizzed right by you. 

[betsy]

8 minutes ago, hot enough said:

See, evidence is good, Betsy. 

Yeah.  I'm glad you see it that way.  That's how you get educated, HE. So now you know,  we got FMG in Canada.

And now you see where you're wrong.......it's not comparable to male circumcision.

 

 Don't ever think that I'm like you.  I don't  make stupid claims I can't support.

 

 

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I think perhaps it whizzed right by you. 

Nope.   It boomeranged  and landed splat right in your face. Bull's eye. 

Edited October 6, 2017 by betsy

[Argus]

13 hours ago, dialamah said:

I disagree; I think exposure to Canadian culture will be enough

And yet the wearing of burkas by Canadian muslims has tripled in the last ten years.

[dialamah]

21 minutes ago, betsy said:

If female circumcision is already illegal in Canada, why is it still being practiced?

Same reason jaywalking, speeding, drug dealing and murder are all being practiced despite being illegal.

[Rue]

22 hours ago, eyeball said:

 

I'm not surprised people in the world you inhabit have no sense of context or humour.  No sense is probably even closer to the reality.

I live in a world where your humour is called passive aggression. Some of your earlier comments were well said. Don't assume you know some of the men on this board you think you can ridicule. You don't know us. You do not know what we think.

I grew up in a world where women have to serve in the military They have no choice. I also live in a world where mothers have their children taken from them by terror cells at night and they are beaten or shot if they resist. I come from a world where young women strap bombs to themselves, and would engage in terrorism with zero problems. I come from a world where women serve and put their lives on the line. Sense of humour. Don't talk to me about how I joke with other women. You would not understand. To get to the point to make the comments you said you will have to do a lot more than sitting on your sheltered ass making assumptions about how enlightened you are compared to the men you think you ridicule.

 

 

Edited October 6, 2017 by Rue

[dialamah]

33 minutes ago, Argus said:

And yet the wearing of burkas by Canadian muslims has tripled in the last ten years.

Perhaps as pushback against xenophobic and anti-Muslim attitudes.  

In the past year, in my relatively high-Muslim area, I have maybe seen a dozen women in burkas.   Perhaps the actual numbers of women wearing the burka are so few that its irrelevant and nothing to worry about.  Kind of similar to how hate crimes against Jews and Muslims are so few and insignificant that they're irrelevant and nothing to worry about.

[Goddess]

13 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Perhaps as pushback against xenophobic and anti-Muslim attitudes.  

How is that working for them, do you think?  I'm not sure it's a good response to fears of Muslim extremism - becoming more extreme.

[hot enough]

10 minutes ago, Goddess said:

How is that working for them, do you think?  I'm not sure it's a good response to fears of Muslim extremism - becoming more extreme.

It seems to work for a lot of young western people who clamor to put on the uniforms of their war criminal/terrorist armed forces. Just ask yourself, Goddess, are the radical Muslim terrorists everyone is shitting their pants over anywhere close to the roughly two million the totally lying western nations have murdered? 

[bush_cheney2004]

Islamic terrorists have killed far more Muslims than "the west".....no wonder they have "Islamophobia".

[dialamah]

5 minutes ago, Goddess said:

How is that working for them, do you think?  I'm not sure it's a good response to fears of Muslim extremism - becoming more extreme.

I don't think its working for them either, but also don't know how much of a factor it is for the full-meal-deal so to speak.   I think the explosion in headscarf or hijab wearing is more obvious as a pushback. 

But its a two-way street and I don't see the anti-Muslim element making any effort to meet them halfway.  

[Goddess]

8 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I don't think its working for them either, but also don't know how much of a factor it is for the full-meal-deal so to speak.   I think the explosion in headscarf or hijab wearing is more obvious as a pushback. 

But its a two-way street and I don't see the anti-Muslim element making any effort to meet them halfway.  

What would "halfway" be between wearing it or not wearing it?

I agree it's a two-way street.  Do you think the burka-wearing community would go along with not wearing it into public places?  Like malls, schools, banks, airports, etc?  I kind of doubt they would......would they meet halfway and switch to hijab for those kinds of things?  

[eyeball]

7 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

I am only against those aspects of it that directly conflict with our culture, and I have been very clear about that.

So what do you think of those aspects of our culture that indirectly clashes with their culture by employing puppet dictators and warlords to do our clashing for us?  Were/are you against or for that?

 

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Maybe you should try discussing the issues a bit more 

Hold that thought while you're figuring out how to answer the question I just posed. I've been discussing these issues for at least 20 years now and they started piling up at least 40 years before that.  You figure Islamophobia just happens in some sort of narrow confined space all on its own with nothing else at all going on around or before it?  

 

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So it is actually you that is conflating what I have said.

Exactly what did I conflate?  Show me.

[Rue]

4 hours ago, dialamah said:

Same reason jaywalking, speeding, drug dealing and murder are all being practiced despite being illegal.

Come on  Di, Jay walking, speeding and drug dealing are not done because of religious or cultural reasons and murder maybe but only when its an honour killing.

You missed her point. Female circumcision is done the same reason certain other illegal practices are done, because when such people come to Canada, they do not feel they need assimilate to our laws.

That was the point. I deal with men in groups who use their culture as an excuse to engage in domestic violence. I tell them to their face, you don't like the laws in Canada, you want to bring that shit to Canada, make a choice. Either follow Canadian laws  or go back to the country  where you can do what you think is acceptable with women. Some things do not balance or compromise. That is the point.

Female circumcision is practiced because of entrenched cultural and religious beliefs, no different than the burka continues in some but not all Muslim nations and people bring it to Canada.  You think it harmless and a reasonable expression of belief and preference, I don't. The law does say you need to show your face in court as a witness and when stopped by police driving. There is a limit to everything.

As for female circumcision., its mutilation of the female genitilia AND many times in the name of Allah. Sure Its also practiced in other religions. Its equally as barbaric. If some idiot wants to come on the forum and compare it to cutting off foreskin I expect that. The idiots can't tell the difference between skin and an actual part of the body with nerve endings. Its par for the course with men who do not understand female bodies and relate everything back to their penises.

I have zero tolerance for body mutilation of genitilia   Some liberal wants to use culture or religion as an excuse to justify abusive practices, and claim female circumcission is no different than make circumission. Bull shit Male circumcision was done to keep dirt and sand from under the foreskin.  Female circumcision was done to prevent sexual sensation.

Is a Burka abusive. I concede for some women but not at all. For others, it sure as hell is because its imposed on them by the males in their family or society.

I support any women who claims she can be a Muslim without covering her face or head. On the other hand I have to be polite and respectful to those who choose such things. Doesn't mean I have to like it or condone it being forced on people or not challenging it as an antiquated symbol.

That said people come to Canada and chew that damn plant I forget the name that for them is like coffee what is it called kat? Its illegal and yet is smuggled in everyday because people are hooked on it. That is a an addiction like we have to caffeine. I am not gonna fret over that. Bring in heroin from Iran yah I would.

Its subjective for sure. Laws can be based on moral values, hygiene.

Just adding my 2 cents. I don't necessarily disagree with you but the analogy was a tad off. 

That said I consider Orthodox Jewish men wearing bear hats to be idiots and barbaric. They should leave black bears alone and wear tuques OK?  I hate all men with beards and bad hair cuts and stupid hats once we are at it. Don't get me started.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Rue

[OftenWrong]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

So what do you think of those aspects of our culture that indirectly clashes with their culture by employing puppet dictators and warlords to do our clashing for us?  Were/are you against or for that?

 

Hold that thought while you're figuring out how to answer the question I just posed. I've been discussing these issues for at least 20 years now and they started piling up at least 40 years before that.  You figure Islamophobia just happens in some sort of narrow confined space all on its own with nothing else at all going on around or before it?  

 

Exactly what did I conflate?  Show me.

Your question is too broad to be answered succinctly. It depends on the circumstances, and such matters are never simple. Secondly I'm not aware of Canada employing any puppet dictators. If you give specific examples I might try to answer, but then it needs a new thread because it is not on topic. So basically your obtuse question cannot be answered.

-> You figure Islamophobia just happens in some sort of narrow confined space all on its own with nothing else at all going on around or before it?
I know it already existed in Canada way back in the 60's and 70's. What you are implying if I read between the lines in your post (lots of room there...) is that everything has cause and effect, we did bad things to them and now it's their turn.

I don't think Canada has done much of anything. Canada provides financial aid to those regions where people live in poverty without education or health care. I think that's the most significant part of our history in relation to the Middle East. I am in favour of an approach that helps refugees, but not by bringing everyone here. If possible keep them living in their homelands. United Nations should establish safe zones for refugees in places like Syria.

You conflate by connecting dots between my criticism of specific barbarous cultural practices and Islamophobia.

[Argus]

4 hours ago, dialamah said:

I don't think its working for them either, but also don't know how much of a factor it is for the full-meal-deal so to speak.   I think the explosion in headscarf or hijab wearing is more obvious as a pushback. 

You do, eh? And do you also see the rise of women wearing burkas and hijabs in Egypt as a 'pushback'? Perhaps to oppression of those Coptic Christians they despise?

[eyeball]

27 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Your question is too broad to be answered succinctly. It depends on the circumstances, and such matters are never simple.

Yes, they muddy the waters to make them look deep...

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Secondly I'm not aware of Canada employing any puppet dictators. If you give specific examples I might try to answer, but then it needs a new thread because it is not on topic. So basically your obtuse question cannot be answered.

We're in an alliance/Coalition that employs them, we even sell their puppets weapons.

When we go after terrorists we also track down their networks of support with all the prejudice we reserve for tracking down the terrorists themselves.  Why do you think we would we do that? Try applying the same principle to guide your thoughts on complicity, especially as it relates to us.    

  

Quote

-> You figure Islamophobia just happens in some sort of narrow confined space all on its own with nothing else at all going on around or before it?
I know it already existed in Canada way back in the 60's and 70's. What you are implying if I read between the lines in your post (lots of room there...) is that everything has cause and effect, we did bad things to them and now it's their turn.

No, Islamophobia in the modern racist sense didn't start until shortly after 9/11, which can trace its roots back to the bad things our staunchest allies started doing in the early 50's, starting with Iran.  I suspect these apparent gaps in your timelines might be deliberate but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.  A lot of people who justify their Islamophobia jump back and forth between the present and the year 570 or something like fleas on a hot-plate without ever stepping in the period between the early 50's and 9/11.

I'm quite certain you've read enough of my posts to understand perfectly well the context I'm placing things in.  You can be sure its written in between the lines too.   

   

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I don't think Canada has done much of anything. Canada provides financial aid to those regions where people live in poverty without education or health care. I think that's the most significant part of our history in relation to the Middle East. I am in favour of an approach that helps refugees, but not by bringing everyone here. If possible keep them living in their homelands. United Nations should establish safe zones for refugees in places like Syria.

Canada sat on it stupid fat ass and said nothing while our staunchest allies were setting a good part of the world on fire.

The only approach I see to solving the issue of refugees is to stop doing the things that cause them.  In our case that would mean getting off our fat stupid asses and telling our allies to stop and then own up to the damage they've caused. 

Quote

You conflate by connecting dots between my criticism of specific barbarous cultural practices and Islamophobia.

You disconnect from the real problem by not criticizing how much of it's root cause can be laid at our own two feet - you're effectively blaming the victims - the Muslim world.  Just about anything that's said in this broad and muddy issue without acknowledging that is pretty much bullshit as a result.

I'm surprised people don't defend our need for dictators to protect ourselves from the barbarous cultural practices of their victims.

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

When we go after terrorists we also track down their networks of support with all the prejudice we reserve for tracking down the terrorists themselves.  Why do you think we would we do that? Try applying the same principle to guide your thoughts on complicity, especially as it relates to us.    .

You're saying we deserve to be attacked because we are allies and friends of the US. I can't agree with that. First of all there are Muslim nations that are our allies too, and not just Saudi Arabia. They are fighting terrorism in their countries as well,much more than we are. As you know that is where Muslims are killing each other in big numbers. When people from Canada see what is taking place in those countries, I mean violence as well as barbarism, it gives rise to Islamophobia, yes.

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Islamophobia in the modern racist sense didn't start until shortly after 9/11, which can trace its roots back to the bad things our staunchest allies started doing in the early 50's, starting with Iran.  I suspect these apparent gaps in your timelines might be deliberate but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

You suspect too much. I was talking about my own experience as a child, long before 911. Muslims have been despised by some folks for as long as I can remember. People frequently used names like "Paki", "Raghead" or whatever. Apologies for the pejoratives but it's a discussion. This cultural attitude which already existed in the 60's does not stem from any particular event that I can think of. I doubt what happened in Iran affected our cultural attitudes towards Muslims at that time. It already existed and has roots in European culture going back centuries.

It is not just events alone that shape attitudes like bigotry. It is also a profound sense of "otherness" that gives rise to xenophobia. Humans are fearful creatures, perhaps rightly so. Even among Christian nations there is considerable bigotry, if you speak a different language, sing different songs and drink different drinks.

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

The only approach I see to solving the issue of refugees is to stop doing the things that cause them.  In our case that would mean getting off our fat stupid asses and telling our allies to stop and then own up to the damage they've caused. 

Yeah except we are not the only cause. Plenty of nasty and cruel places out there to go around. ISIS is creating refugees in Syria. I know, I know, "we created ISIS". But then, Great Britain created us, and they were Anglo-Saxons, and we were all cavemen once...

I think the difference between our views is that you give Muslims a pass on their violence while calling us out on ours. My view is more complicated than that. The root causes- greed, power, are universal among men.

 

[OftenWrong]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

You disconnect from the real problem by not criticizing how much of it's root cause can be laid at our own two feet - you're effectively blaming the victims - the Muslim world.  Just about anything that's said in this broad and muddy issue without acknowledging that is pretty much bullshit as a result.

I'm surprised people don't defend our need for dictators to protect ourselves from the barbarous cultural practices of their victims.

And if what I said about the root causes is true, it is disingenuous to suggest things would improve if we simply stood down and apologized. All that would happen is, if we pass the sephulcer of power to them, they would hammer us and everyone else just as much, and probably more. Every page in the history of humanity is war, war, war. Everywhere in the world, in every culture. Anyway drifting now.

[dialamah]

4 hours ago, Rue said:

Just adding my 2 cents. I don't necessarily disagree with you but the analogy was a tad off. 

Edited 4 hours ago by Rue

No, it wasn't.   People do things that are illegal and to ask why FGM is happening in Canada "if it's illegal" is a stupid question.   The push to make "Muslim" crime a special category all it's own is just more of the anti-Islamic rhetoric.   

 

[Charles Anthony]

Folks,

Avoid trolling.

I took down a lot of posts from the last few pages of this thread. If you are missing a post, then you failed to avoid trolling.

[drummindiver]

20 hours ago, dialamah said:

Same reason jaywalking, speeding, drug dealing and murder are all being practiced despite being illegal.

Murder, drug dealing, speeding and jaywalking are cultural? Really? 

[dialamah]

31 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

Murder, drug dealing, speeding and jaywalking are cultural? Really? 

What has culture to do with illegal practices?   Are they  more illegal if they're "cultural"?

 

Edited October 7, 2017 by dialamah

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, dialamah said:

What has culture to do with illegal practices?   Are they  more illegal if they're "cultural"?

 

Nothing at all.  They are a good way of assessing the culture that practices them, is all. 

Their illegality usually depends on somebody else's culture.  Their continued practice while illegal speaks to the cowardice of that culture.

[Rue]

48 minutes ago, dialamah said:

What has culture to do with illegal practices?   Are they  more illegal if they're "cultural"?

 

You again missed the point. If an illegal crime is a direct result of engaging in a cultural or religious  practice that cultural or religious practice is problematic. We are discussing the cause of a crime-some crimes are not caused by religious or cultural practices. People jay walk from  all cultures and religions. Their religion or cultural beliefs don't teach them its ok to jay walk.  That was the original point Betsy made and BCSapper is making now.  I agree with BC except in his last sentence I would myself state the continued practice of female circumcission  while illegal speaks to the abusiveveness of the culture or religion that promotes it which in many cases is Islam...

To ignore the cause and effect of religion and circumcision of females is inaccurate and unhelpful in stopping it. Sexual beliefs in Islam and other religions lead to practices we need to challenge and root out in a progressive  democratic society. There is no place for them. Mutilating a clitoris is unacceptable. If a religious leader teaches it they are to be challenged. I see no place for mutilating clitorises in any culture-yah call me intolerant against mutilating clitorises.  If its taught by people in the name of Islam it has to be challenged and called out for what it is idiocy. 

If someone has a problem I have no foreskin, God bless them but my penis was not mutilated it works and I studies show I am less likely to spread viruses that can lead to cervical cancer.  Now mind you Tim Horton's discriminates against me every year in their roll up the rim contest but I can live with that.

Let's get serous what does culture and religion have to do with female circumcision, honour killings, wife beatings? You need to ask?

Edited October 7, 2017 by Rue