Islamophobia in Canada

[Jariax]

3 hours ago, Hudson Jones said:

Many of the countries that are being attacked or are occupied or have puppet dictators at the helm are Muslim countries. When they don't have an army to fight back with, you end up with the type/style of attacks we're seeing. This has nothing to do with anyone's religion.

I'm not saying that the West has treated Muslim countries fairly. Nor do I expect peace in countries that don't allow any mechanism for change. But, the fact is, when we see groups claiming credit for violent attacks around the world, 9/10 times it's Muslims. Other individuals do massive violent attacks (Vegas), but it's not an organized attack by a group, meant to facilitate change. 

[Bubble Burst]

Why are people so afraid of admitting Islamophobia. According to Wikipedia:

Islamophobia is defined as "Intense dislike or fear of Islam, esp. as a political force; hostility or prejudice towards Muslims".

Look at the list of killings in the name of Islam in the last 30 days:

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=Last30

Read what their book teaches about violence:

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx

I don't understand what's so controversial about feeling "Intense dislike or fear" about these (if you are not part of their ideology).

Trying to legislate against "Islamophobia" is mind boggling beside being a clear violation of freedom of speech.

 

[eyeball]

5 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Still waiting for all those overdue terrorist attacks from First Nations.

No doubt. There's no shortage of room under the bed for more boogymen.

 

[bush_cheney2004]

8 minutes ago, eyeball said:

No doubt. There's no shortage of room under the bed for more boogymen.

 

 

'Muricanophobia good....Islamophobia bad  ?

[eyeball]

Your English is bad, I can see that much.

Phobia is the best thing since sliced bread. Mark my words, the wing-nuts will soon be using the fear of revenge as a pretext for deporting natives.

[bush_cheney2004]

19 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Your English is bad, I can see that much.

Phobia is the best thing since sliced bread. Mark my words, the wing-nuts will soon be using the fear of revenge as a pretext for deporting natives.

 

"English" ?    See, you are still part of the problem, not the solution.    God Save the Queen !

I suspect that many "natives" are chuckling as the prospect of immigrants and refugees giving the "English" (and French) Canadians a taste of karma payback.   

Perhaps the scariest Islamists can be sent to residential schools ?

[eyeball]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Perhaps the scariest Islamists can be sent to residential schools ?

And radicalize the natives?

Sounds like a plan.

[Argus]

13 hours ago, Bubble Burst said:

Why are people so afraid of admitting Islamophobia. According to Wikipedia:

Islamophobia is defined as "Intense dislike or fear of Islam, esp. as a political force; hostility or prejudice towards Muslims".

The term is usually meant to imply a 'phobia' or in other words, an irrational and prejudicial behaviour. I don't regard fear and disrust of Islam to be either irrational or prejudiced.

[Bubble Burst]

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

The term is usually meant to imply a 'phobia' or in other words, an irrational and prejudicial behaviour. I don't regard fear and disrust of Islam to be either irrational or prejudiced.

According to Webster:

Definition of phobia
:an exaggerated usually inexplicable and illogical fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation
Definition of Islamophobia
:irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against Islam or people who practice Islam

Yeah, you're right. I though "irrational" was an optional part of the definition. The Wikipedia definition leaves out the "irrational" part.
Note though that the definition doesn't mention anything about violence against Muslims. Violence  is in general illegal, not just against Muslims so it wouldn't need any additional legislation.

Anyhow, the attempt to ban "fear" either rational or irrational is still idiotic. Also, I think discrimination against an extremely  hateful ideology is not in any way hateful.

This shameful motion was nothing but a condemnation of the condemnation of hate, so it can be labeled as a motion in favor of hate.

 

[Bubble Burst]

27 minutes ago, Argus said:

The term is usually meant to imply a 'phobia' or in other words, an irrational and prejudicial behaviour. I don't regard fear and disrust of Islam to be either irrational or prejudiced.

Another thing:

I think the Webster definition of Islamophobia
:irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against Islam or people who practice Islam

makes the word more of a political statement and an unfounded accusation. Fear of Islam is NOT irrational.

It's like one would use Naziphobia as a word to express fear of Nazis. Actually just googled "Naziphobia" and found out a definition of it very similar to Islamophobia in "The Urban Dictionary",  but surprisingly the word is not in Webster or on Wikipedia.

Reading the section "Criticism of term and use" on Wikipedia makes clear that the word "Islamophobia" is loaded and controversial, being used to prevent any criticism of "Islam". I don't understand how it was possible that the Canadian Parliament was used by Islamists to ban freedom of speech in Canada. Are our politicians complete idiots?

 

 

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, Bubble Burst said:

Also, I think discrimination against an extremely  hateful ideology is not in any way hateful.

Calling a religion an ideology is either irrational or deliberate.

When it's the latter it's racism.

[Bubble Burst]

22 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Calling a religion an ideology is either irrational or deliberate.

When it's the latter it's racism.

 

That didn't take long. What is calling someone a racist for expressing an opinion you don't agree with?

Anyhow, you believe that Islam is a Race, but not an Ideology, right?

[Rue]

2 hours ago, Bubble Burst said:

Another thing:

I think the Webster definition of Islamophobia
:irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against Islam or people who practice Islam

makes the word more of a political statement and an unfounded accusation. Fear of Islam is NOT irrational.

It's like one would use Naziphobia as a word to express fear of Nazis. Actually just googled "Naziphobia" and found out a definition of it very similar to Islamophobia in "The Urban Dictionary",  but surprisingly the word is not in Webster or on Wikipedia.

Reading the section "Criticism of term and use" on Wikipedia makes clear that the word "Islamophobia" is loaded and controversial, being used to prevent any criticism of "Islam". I don't understand how it was possible that the Canadian Parliament was used by Islamists to ban freedom of speech in Canada. Are our politicians complete idiots?

 

 

I agree with all your statements. I would say some Islamophobia is illogical or irrational but not all of it. I agree with you its a great way to shut down criticism and free speech regarding extremist Islamic practices or the correlation between them and terrorism or say female genital mutilation.

Its tough though when we discuss any culture, religion, political belief, that we don't break down to people accusing others of isms and ists. One of the problems I have always tried to challenge is how people make unfounded generalizations based on their own subjective opinions and try pass them off on this  forum as objective facts and for me I thin some of the worst offenders claiming Islamophobia on this forum engage in anti semitic, anti Christian, anti white, and other generalizations and engage in the very same stereotypes of non Muslims they claim are done to Muslims.

Its par for the course. Islamophobia can be real or imagined.

Me personally I think it can explain Bill 62 in Quebec.  I do. I think it is a subjective political expression of disdain and/or fear for Muslim head covers and too many people are too afraid to admit that.

I don't like the head covers and I detest many Muslim practices as to the physical body and gender identical how I reject the same kind of beliefs in any religion. I am not afraid to say so. Is it a fear? More like a disgust or disdain based on a strong opinion. I don't fear Islam. I dislike certain Muslims using it for their own subjective views that c onflict with mine.

I agree with you that calling a dislike of Islamophobia may not be that. If anything an unfair generalization of all Muslims might be a discriminatory belief not a fear. Its not necessarily both but of course it could be at times.

I personally believe the best way to deal with Islamic  beliefs we don't like is to debate them openly, without generalizing or assigning all Muslims negative stereotypes.

Hell I openly question my own religion with a lot of criticism. Its not based on fear.

 

[Rue]

37 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Calling a religion an ideology is either irrational or deliberate.

When it's the latter it's racism.

Horse crap.Where do you get off making you righteous pronouncements trying to name call people.

How can a religion NOT contain ideology.

All religions contain ideology, i.e., visionary theorizing,  concepts regarding  human life or culture and most importantly integrated assertions theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program all characteristics of both theology and ideology and in particular Islam and Sharia law which fuse theology, politics, and law and use the state to impose Islamic r beliefs.

Ideology refers to a broad set of beliefs that any one person or group holds and theology or religion refers to an ideology a group of like minded persons believe about the origins of their life, or what God is. To suggest religions don't set out ideological concepts as to political, economic and social beliefs is past stupid, its nonsensical. You just spew out the isms and ists the moment you disagree with something.

If anything religion is a faith based ideology that might focus on a subject matter as to God or lack of God but its still an ideology.

Run along and use a dictionary. Racist. Yah. Racism refers to the exercise of discriminating against someone because of engaging in negative generalizations based on racial, i.e., secondary physical characteristics, skin colour, eye structure, nose shape, hair texture NOT  beliefs as to God, social, economical or political beliefs.

Its lazy, HALF ASSED,  name calling to misapply the term racism let alone make an illogical statement that religion is not an ideology. Next you will say theology can't be a philosophy as well.

 

 

 

 

[Rue]

20 hours ago, Jariax said:

I'm not saying that the West has treated Muslim countries fairly...

May I take up your first words and use them as a basis to make some rhetorical questions to try make a point. Thank you because I am removing them out of the context you used them for which I appreciate.

Can anyone name a Muslim country that has treated another Muslim country or non Muslim country fairly? Can anyone  think of a Muslim country  accepted or acknowledged its collective responsibility for a war or conflict, ever?

The selective take on history that Muslim countries are  victims is with due respect just that selective and it leads I would argue to a false narrative and a rewriting of history to falsely portray Muslim states as victims of the West. Muslim states vicitimize and kill.

 If one looks at the history of Muslim nations from the organized implementation of Islam through Sharia law states to the nations of today, this depiction of Muslim states being victims is false. They have victimized more than they have been victimized and they have victimized Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Bahaiis, Hindus, Christians, Zoroastrians, Siekhs, Druze, Kurds, Azidi, communists, trade unionists, gays, women, on and on.  Islam is not and has never been a peaceful religion in the manner in which  it has been practiced by states and imposed by war on others whether it be fellow Muslims or non Muslims.

Muslim countries not treated fairly? What country has been treated fairly on this planet and who decides that?

With due respect when referring to the history of Islam, there is very little peace. To pretend it was a peaceful society only to be victimized by the West into becoming bad is a crock of crap. Its the same false script that falsely  states Muslim extremists, Muslim terrorists are only violent because the West victimized them. Oh bull sheeyat. Muslims have been and continue to be their own worst enemy clinging to a non flexible approach to their ideology and condemnation of progressive Islamic movements trying to teach and guide them to move past fundamentalist rigid  thought processes to critical analysis and free thought.

My concern is for progressive Muslims and all kinds of Muslims  and non Muslims  being victimized by Islamic extremists. My concern is that states in Niger, Chad, Malawi, Sudan, or in pockets of Nigeria, or in Bahrain, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, are corrupted and violent-blaming the West for Muslim uprisings in China and Russia is nonsensical. Suggesting Boca Ratan are reacting to Western unfairness in Nigeria is crap. When the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt tried to wipe out Coptic Christians, when Sudan does the same through its Muslim Brotherhood to its Christians, when Assad engages in what he does, when Erdogan of Turkey openly calls for war against Kurds and encourages their genocide and denies the Armenian genocide, that's not because the West was unfair.

The Arab league nations that chose to ally with the Nazis, then Soviets and try wipe out Jews for having a tiny country were not victims-in fact they victimized Palestinians and turned Palestinians into pawns for their failed victimization of Jews in Israel.

the 900,000 Jews expelled from the Arab world, the hundreds of thousands of Jews persecuted in Arab countries along with Zoroastreans, Bahaiis, Christians, were not  victimized because of the West victimizing Muslim nations.

My comments are directed at Muslim governments and extremist Muslim terrorists and theologians, not ALL Muslims. I have been careful to state the Muslim governments I criticize hate everyone especially fellow Muslims in their own nations.

 

Edited October 24, 2017 by Rue

[eyeball]

8 hours ago, Bubble Burst said:

 

That didn't take long. What is calling someone a racist for expressing an opinion you don't agree with?

It's behaviour not opinion that's at issue here.  

Quote

Anyhow, you believe that Islam is a Race, but not an Ideology, right?

No I don't think that either but I do think the indecency Islam is treated to qualifies as racism. I also think the disgust directed towards this behaviour is well deserved and the correct thing to do. 

Edited October 25, 2017 by eyeball

[eyeball]

7 hours ago, Rue said:

Horse crap.Where do you get off...

Get lost.

[Bubble Burst]

12 hours ago, eyeball said:

No I don't think that either but I do think the indecency Islam is treated to qualifies as racism. I also think the disgust directed towards this behaviour is well deserved and the correct thing to do. 

Are you Canadian, living in Canada?

Are you Muslim?

Do you think ISIS is a good organization?

Do you think Muslims should be judged according to Sharia Law everywhere in the world?

Do you think Muslim Apostates should be killed, or otherwise punished?

Do you think Homosexuals should be killed, or otherwise punished?

Do you think someone has a God-Given right to kill Apostates and Homosexuals?

 

[eyeball]

23 minutes ago, Bubble Burst said:

Are you Canadian, living in Canada?

Are you Muslim?

Do you think ISIS is a good organization?

Do you think Muslims should be judged according to Sharia Law everywhere in the world?

Do you think Muslim Apostates should be killed, or otherwise punished?

Do you think Homosexuals should be killed, or otherwise punished?

Do you think someone has a God-Given right to kill Apostates and Homosexuals?

 

Yes, no, no, no, no, no and no and and I have little reason not to conclude that the vast majority of Muslims would also answer no to your last five questions.

[Bubble Burst]

13 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Yes, no, no, no, no, no and no and and I have little reason not to conclude that the vast majority of Muslims would also answer no to your last five questions.

Then, according to your definition, your are a racist, because you treat Islam with indecency. The last four items are pillars of Islam.

And you are completely wrong on your assumption that the "the vast majority of Muslims would also answer no":

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/01/64-percent-of-muslims-in-egypt-and-pakistan-support-the-death-penalty-for-leaving-islam/?utm_term=.4043ac6d1e97

It's a fallacy of Islamist apologists like yourself to project your liberal views on Islam practitioners. They are nothing like you. And they tell you that if you ask them.

[eyeball]

Just now, Bubble Burst said:

Then, according to your definition, your are a racist, because you treat Islam with indecency.

According to the evidence I usually see around here your ilk use definitions as interchangeably as the pieces of Mr Potato Head.

 

[Michael Hardner]

11 minutes ago, eyeball said:

According to the evidence I usually see around here your ilk use definitions as interchangeably as the pieces of Mr Potato Head.

Muslims are just bad, by some people, and they will find all kinds of ways to justify that.

[Bubble Burst]

5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Muslims are just bad, by some people, and they will find all kinds of ways to justify that.

If I think that the Islamic Ideology as described in Qur'an is "bad", that says nothing about Muslims. I also think that the ideology described in the "Old Testament" is equally bad. That says nothing about Jewish people or Christians. I also think that the Nazi ideology is bad and that the KKK ideology is bad, and the Chinese Communist Ideology is bad. These are not statements about people.

I respect Muslim dissidents and Muslims who are trying to reform the medieval ideology. I don't respect people who think Apostates or Homosexuals should be killed or those who are defending those beliefs, no matter their religion. 

 

Edited October 25, 2017 by Bubble Burst

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Muslims are just bad, by some people, and they will find all kinds of ways to justify that.

Just the bad Muslims.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Bubble Burst said:

If I think that the Islamic Ideology as described in Qur'an is "bad", that says nothing about Muslims. I also think that the ideology described in the "Old Testament" is equally bad. That says nothing about Jewish people or Christians. I also think that the Nazi ideology is bad and that the KKK ideology is bad, and the Chinese Communist Ideology is bad. These are not statements about people.

I respect Muslim dissidents and Muslims who are trying to reform the medieval ideology. I don't respect people who think Apostates or Homosexuals should be killed or those who are defending those believes, no matter their religion. 

 

You can always get a lefty to agree that there is such a thing as a bad Muslim.  You can never get them to agree that you, or I, have the right to point one out.

Edited October 25, 2017 by bcsapper