Massive attack on Israel: the factual end of the international system of security

[myata]

There's no other ways to look at it: post WWII order and system is gone. Dead. There's no incremental means to pedal it back: fantasies. Illusions.

What the new age of the world will be, look and feel like will be decided in the course of a few years that follow. Don't say you didn't know it was a surprise.

 

[CITIZEN_2015]

The so called massive attack did not cause civilian lives except one Muslim child so restraint by Israel is hoped for to prevent an  out of controlled regional war. The made in Islamic Republic missiles and drones were shot down like toys A massive Israeli retaliation will cause many Iranian civilian lives most of whom are currently friendly towards West. It was the Islamic regime and the terrorist IRGC who attacked Israel and the retaliation must be proportionate and on IRGC targets not defenseless civilians.

[I am Groot]

7 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

The so called massive attack did not cause civilian lives except one Muslim child so restraint by Israel is hoped for to prevent an  out of controlled regional war. 

 

Just because someone shot at you and missed, that does not suggest you should not shoot back.

[CITIZEN_2015]

15 hours ago, I am Groot said:

 

Just because someone shot at you and missed, that does not suggest you should not shoot back.

I am saying avoid attacking back civilian targets. Attack the IRGC in most severe way but the nation of Iran id taken hostage by this brutal regime. Shoot at the hostage taker. Don't kill the hostage.

[cannuck]

2 hours ago, I am Groot said:

 

Just because someone shot at you and missed, that does not suggest you should not shoot back.

Ah....sorry but that is EXACTLY what is required - because you know their intent and they might score a hit next time.   It is a legitimate defensive response to an attack.   

[cannuck]

Just now, cannuck said:

Ah....sorry but that is EXACTLY what is required - because you know their intent and they might score a hit next time.   It is a legitimate defensive response to an attack.   

The sad part is that the whole mess goes right back to the Go Brandon administration coming into power and cancelling sanctions on Iran and sending them a few billion reward for being what they are.    Just to show you how bad it is:  the people who scrap marine vessels are hurting like Hell because of ALL of the old tankers being kept in service as floating storage or back door delivery fleets for Russian and Iranian oil.   The Swiss oil trading houses are making billions per month over these clandestine and disguised trades and deliveries.   Both Russia and Iran are fighting their wars on megabucks of oil and gas sales and the rest of the world is collectively too stupid and gutless to stop them.  Kahmenei LFAO.

[I am Groot]

4 minutes ago, cannuck said:

The sad part is that the whole mess goes right back to the Go Brandon administration coming into power and cancelling sanctions on Iran and sending them a few billion reward for being what they are.    Just to show you how bad it is:  the people who scrap marine vessels are hurting like Hell because of ALL of the old tankers being kept in service as floating storage or back door delivery fleets for Russian and Iranian oil.   The Swiss oil trading houses are making billions per month over these clandestine and disguised trades and deliveries.   Both Russia and Iran are fighting their wars on megabucks of oil and gas sales and the rest of the world is collectively too stupid and gutless to stop them.  Kahmenei LFAO.

So you're saying sanctions are a waste of time. But that it's all Biden's fault for canceling sanctions. have I got that right?

11 minutes ago, cannuck said:

Ah....sorry but that is EXACTLY what is required - because you know their intent and they might score a hit next time.   It is a legitimate defensive response to an attack.   

Maybe if you hit them hard enough they'll think twice about shooting at you again.

[CITIZEN_2015]

BLOCK IRANIAN PORTS AND STOP THE EXPORT OF OIL. The regime will fall in a massive uprising as it fails to pay its murderous mercenaries.

[cannuck]

23 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

BLOCK IRANIAN PORTS AND STOP THE EXPORT OF OIL. The regime will fall in a massive uprising as it fails to pay its murderous mercenaries.

I would do it a bit differently.  I would use ....  in fact force banking to intercept the money and give it to Israel and Ukraine.   Any trader that facilitated you just take away their banking privileges.

[CITIZEN_2015]

15 hours ago, cannuck said:

I would do it a bit differently.  I would use ....  in fact force banking to intercept the money and give it to Israel and Ukraine.   Any trader that facilitated you just take away their banking privileges.

You can't force the banking system in such way. More of a fiction than fact or reality. I wished it was possible.

[Perspektiv]

7 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Shoot at the hostage taker. Don't kill the hostage.

Sorry, but a hostage taker opens fire indiscriminately at the police from inside his vehicle, and he is getting heavy handed return fire coming back his way.

Warnings to surrender, time being given, the area being surrounded, are acceptable measures to minimize civilian deaths.

That hostage being killed while unfortunate collateral damage, was needed to eliminate such a threat from spreading.

I see it no different than with Israel. They don't retaliate, and they send a message of weakness and can expect more direct attacks to come in the future.

[athos]

 

In fact, Iran only used 10% of its combat missile capacity. It was just a warning to Israel of what will happen next if Israel continues to provoke Iran.

 

Edited April 14 by athos

[CITIZEN_2015]

16 hours ago, athos said:

 

In fact, Iran only used 10% of its combat missile capacity. It was just a warning to Israel of what will happen next if Israel continues to provoke Iran.

 

Nothing will happen as the 10% of it did nothing.  10 times zero is still zero. This is simple math. These made by Islamic Republic missiles and drones are only full of hot air. They are only good at killing unarmed peaceful demonstrators. 

[eyeball]

22 hours ago, myata said:

What the new age of the world will be, look and feel like will be decided in the course of a few years that follow. Don't say you didn't know it was a surprise.

We promised the Europeans freedom. It would be worse than dishonorable not to see they have it. This might mean war with the Russians, but what of it? They have no Air Force anymore ,their gasoline and ammunition supplies are low .I've seen their miserable supply trains; mostly wagons drawn by beaten up old hoses or oxen. I'll say this; the Third Army alone with very little help and with damned few casualties, could lick what is left of the Russians in six weeks. You mark my words. Don't ever forget them. Someday we will have to fight them and it will take six years and cost us six million lives.”

General George Patton

 

This sort of victory in Europe might have even negated the need to create Israel.

The world would be so different I'd probably be posting this from my condo on the moon.

Fu ck...we were that close.

[myata]

11 hours ago, cannuck said:

The sad part is that the whole mess goes right back to the Go Brandon administration coming into power and cancelling sanctions on Iran and sending them a few billion reward for being what they are

Sadly this seems to be correct. Tolerance to bandits is taken only as a sigh of weakness. Liberal West just cannot learn it by any means. That's just too bad.

[ironstone]

14 hours ago, athos said:

 

In fact, Iran only used 10% of its combat missile capacity. It was just a warning to Israel of what will happen next if Israel continues to provoke Iran.

 

If Israel continues to provoke Iran??? Iran has an extremely well deserved reputation for sponsoring terrorism against Israel and the US and others. Just listen to the hate filled rhetoric that the Ayatollah's regularly spew out.

[Moonbox]

On 4/14/2024 at 2:33 AM, myata said:

There's no other ways to look at it: post WWII order and system is gone. Dead. There's no incremental means to pedal it back: fantasies. Illusions.

What the new age of the world will be, look and feel like will be decided in the course of a few years that follow. Don't say you didn't know it was a surprise.

I'm curious about what you see here that's different than all of the other times Israel has been attacked.  How is this much different than SCUDs being launched from Iraq, or all of the other parties that have tried?  What about this do you figure is so transformative?  

[athos]

23 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Nothing will happen as the 10% of it did nothing.  10 times zero is still zero. This is simple math. These made by Islamic Republic missiles and drones are only full of hot air. They are only good at killing unarmed peaceful demonstrators. 

I've always wondered why Hollyweird only makes movies about Hitler and the holocaust and never a single movie about the king of Belgium Leopold II who murdered more people than Hitler.

 

 

[August1991]

On 4/14/2024 at 2:34 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

BLOCK IRANIAN PORTS AND STOP THE EXPORT OF OIL. The regime will fall in a massive uprising as it fails to pay its murderous mercenaries.

Agreed. Iran is not a world power. But its leaders are stubborn.

The Islamists arrived in 1979. They have survived longer than the western Shah.

[August1991]

On 4/14/2024 at 2:33 AM, myata said:

There's no other ways to look at it: post WWII order and system is gone. Dead. There's no incremental means to pedal it back: fantasies. Illusions.

What the new age of the world will be, look and feel like will be decided in the course of a few years that follow. Don't say you didn't know it was a surprise.

 

Strongly disagree.

In 1989/1991, Reagan, Nixon, Kennedy won - America won.

Since then, like in 1815, we need a new order of peace.

Clinton and Bush Snr meant well.

[myata]

15 hours ago, Moonbox said:

How is this much different than SCUDs being launched from Iraq, or all of the other parties that have tried?  What about this do you figure is so transformative? 

Because from now on, this kind of act and behavior becomes the new normal, and will go with effective impunity as long as the perpetrator has nukes (or a potential to acquire them) and the support of the Authoritarian axis.

Ukraine, Isreal: done, check

Taiwan, South Korea: in the clear perspective, as there's nothing: only vacuum to prevent it.

These are in fact and objectively, the first steps into the new age of humanity: aggressive nukes can do what they like with complete impunity. Nothing like "never again": the exact opposite, in fact.

If we can or want/will etc. do nothing about it, at least it's dumb to pretend that nothing much is happening.

Edited April 16 by myata

[cannuck]

Yes, there is very much a new world order where Putin and Xi are at the top of the heap stitched together by Khamenei and Kim.  India's pretend democracy is stuck in the middle with no choice but to follow where their oil comes from.  Sadly this list includes over half the population of Earth essentially against NATO.   The UN has become an ineffective bad joke.

Edited April 16 by cannuck

[Michael Hardner]

6 minutes ago, cannuck said:

Yes, there is very much a new world order where Putin and Xi are at the top of the heap stitched together by Khamenei and Kim.  India's pretend democracy is stuck in the middle with no choice but to follow where their oil comes from.  Sadly this list includes over half the population of Earth essentially against NATO.   The UN has become an ineffective bad joke.

You're not wrong... but who would you rather be in this scenario:
Russia, China, India or a NATO member ?

 

[eyeball]

14 hours ago, August1991 said:

The Islamists arrived in 1979. They have survived longer than the western Shah.

The dysfunction the US and England initiated in Iran will persist for generations to come.

[Nationalist]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

You're not wrong... but who would you rather be in this scenario:
Russia, China, India or a NATO member ?

 

Tough question.

We have the most to lose...