Army Guy Posted September 26, 2023 Report Share Posted September 26, 2023 On 9/25/2023 at 12:31 PM, Moonbox said: The foreign divisions in the Waffen SS numbered close to half a million. This is how the Germans integrated foreign volunteers, who mostly just wanted to oppose Bolshevism. In the case of the Ukrainians, they'd been mistreated and terrorized by the Russians for generations, and were fighting against that. The division in question was never charged at Nuremberg, and a Canadian commission concluded in 1986 that the whole group couldn't be criminally indicted - membership in it didn't justify prosecution or even implicate criminality. The way the news has covered this story is as if the guy was an SS police officer rounding up Jews or something, and that everyone was cheering for a war criminal. Yes many foreigners served in the Nazi military machine, Not all in the SS but as you said lots of them, but you seem to be painting these men like they were regular soldiers, when they are clearly not. Regular soldiers do not slaughter regular Civilians, as members of this division did while operating in Poland as stated or pointed out below... Canada was pressured by the UK to accept large numbers of these SS men, as did the UK except thousands as well ... Nuremburg did find the entire SS organization to be criminals, in fact Allied had a standing order that SS men and officers could be shot on site...they had do something special to deserve that type of treatment. That including men from this division...How so many avoided being shot is not mentioned in any thing I've read... It is true the division was never charged, nor were any of it's soldiers, in Nuremberg or the Canadian commission...That does not mean that they did not take part in atrocities, Poland seems to have all the evidence it needs to demand an apology from Canada and to transfer this guy to their courts.... for having this guy in parliament. And i don't know why the trails in Nuremburg did not pursue this matter to it's fullest, and can only speculate on why Canada brushed it under the carpet in 1986... it had already allowed thousands of these men into the country...it would be kind of embarrassing would it not, if the did find the evidence they needed, ...and what do you do with their families, they are Canadians after all. imigine finding out grandpa was an SS soldier who killed women and children... It is "possible" that this guy has done horrible things, in his past.. he was after all a member of a SS unit, his unit did commit war crimes, it absorbed other hard core killers into its unit such as police bns responsible for rounding up Jews and killing them, and until his past is fully uncovered it is possible he is what ever one is accusing him of...and if thats the case he SHOULD be ship be shipped off to Poland to face his accusers.. Media does what ever sells a story, and should be treated with a grain of salt...I don't think this is the end of the story, unless it is covered up by the Liberals... Quote Although the Waffen-SS as a whole was declared to be a criminal organization at the Nuremberg Trials, the Galician Division has not specifically been found guilty of any war crimes by any war tribunal or commission. However, numerous accusations of impropriety have been leveled at the division, and at particular members of the division, from a variety of sources. In the winter and spring of 1944, the SS-Galizien participated in the destruction of several Polish villages, including the village of Huta Pieniacka. About five hundred civilians were murdered. German soldiers shelled the village before entering it and ordering all the civilians to gather together. In the ensuing massacre, the village of Huta Pienacka was destroyed, and between 500[50] and 1,000 of the inhabitants were killed. According to Polish accounts, civilians were locked in barns that were set on fire, while those attempting to flee were killed.[51] Main articles: Pidkamin massacre and Palikrowy massacre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted September 27, 2023 Report Share Posted September 27, 2023 17 hours ago, Army Guy said: It is true the division was never charged, nor were any of it's soldiers, in Nuremberg or the Canadian commission... It means there's no evidence that he did, and with no evidence or admission that he did, he can't be held responsible for it. That's how the Law works. 17 hours ago, Army Guy said: It is "possible" that this guy has done horrible things, in his past.. he was after all a member of a SS unit, his unit did commit war crimes It's possible that anyone has done horrible things. I'm merely trying to point out that there is more context to this story than "Reeee! SS!" and that a Ukrainian having lived under Soviet oppression would be motivated to fight against them. The balance of facts that we have here suggests that's what he did in WW2, and that the wasn't kicking down doors and burning Jewish temples. 17 hours ago, Army Guy said: Media does what ever sells a story, and should be treated with a grain of salt...I don't think this is the end of the story, unless it is covered up by the Liberals... Either way, it's embarrassing. I think it's being blown out of proportion, but I still think he should have never spoken in the House. It's yet another gaffe in a long list that makes Trudeau look like a fool. Foreign governments have yet another reason not to take him seriously, and it's good fuel for the Tucker Carlson asslickers to slurp from Kremlin propaganda machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted September 27, 2023 Report Share Posted September 27, 2023 4 hours ago, Moonbox said: It means there's no evidence that he did, and with no evidence or admission that he did, he can't be held responsible for it. That's how the Law works. It's possible that anyone has done horrible things. I'm merely trying to point out that there is more context to this story than "Reeee! SS!" and that a Ukrainian having lived under Soviet oppression would be motivated to fight against them. The balance of facts that we have here suggests that's what he did in WW2, and that the wasn't kicking down doors and burning Jewish temples. Either way, it's embarrassing. I think it's being blown out of proportion, but I still think he should have never spoken in the House. It's yet another gaffe in a long list that makes Trudeau look like a fool. Foreign governments have yet another reason not to take him seriously, and it's good fuel for the Tucker Carlson asslickers to slurp from Kremlin propaganda machine. I personally think that Nuremburg staff were over whelmed with other trails, and this unit was over looked, as history has shown that this unit was made up of SS police groups which did round up Jews, the division itself has been accused of taking part in killing Polish civilians, and we do not know who took part in those activities without further investigation, atleast before we answer polish demands to hand this guy over...and if he goes then all of his fellow comrades should also be investigated once more, and they to handed over... As for the other commission in the 80's, i don't know i have not read anything about this commission , but i do have doubts they uncovered anything of any value, and if they did it was swept under the carpet, i can't imigine the shit show that would have caused, some 2 or 3 generations later with these SS men's families... and it would serve no really purpose other than justice. As for what he did, we have no idea, but reality says His division did more than kill Russian soldiers, and his division has been implicated in killing Polish civilians.. did he take part, my money is yes, soldiers were shot for not doing their part for much less offensives...can that be proven, perhaps not, but it does deserve a another look... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cougar Posted September 27, 2023 Report Share Posted September 27, 2023 2 hours ago, Army Guy said: .. did he take part, my money is yes, soldiers were shot for not doing their part for much less offensives...can that be proven, perhaps not, but it does deserve a another look... My guess is no; providing my rational in the second thread. To moderators: maybe the two threads can be merged ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted September 28, 2023 Report Share Posted September 28, 2023 On 9/24/2023 at 8:39 AM, myata said: ... You are opposing Putin's aggression: check? You agree that the normal and sane world has to defeat Putin: check? I oppose the 1913 world of a "short war". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted September 28, 2023 Report Share Posted September 28, 2023 Here is something that brings more light behind that 1986 commission, and to NAZI SS war criminals in Canada. i found this while doing some research, A documentary by 60 minutes....if you have time it is worth a watch , but it leaves you with a lot of questions...It also dispels the myth that the commission had done a good job at looking for war criminals and the evidence against them...The fact that a US journalist found more evidence against these men than our own government did is disheartening. Which does raise the issue what else has our government done that borders criminal... Further still, it was later revealed that the commission withheld evidence and ignored the findings of other war crimes trials, such as the Nuremberg trials. The commission's decision to find the Waffen-SS 14th Galicia Division not guilty of collective war crimes was particularly controversial, as the SS had already been determined to have committed war crimes as an organization at earlier war crimes trials. It is thus difficult to determine whether the commission's conclusion that the number of suspected war criminals who either had or were residing in Canada was in fact exaggerated, given how much potential evidence wasn't considered.[9] By contrast, experts in the field have long argued that Canada had an open door to war criminals, and that the country did far too little to prosecute the alleged war criminals and collaborators who had found refuge there. Historian Irving Abella stated to Mike Wallace of 60 Minutes it was relatively easy for former SS members to enter Canada, as their distinctive tattoos meant they were reliably anti-Communist.[10] Bernie Farber, then the director of the Canadian Jewish Congress, stated Nazis in Canada, of which there were estimated to be 3,000, was Canada's 'dirty little secret'. In the late-1990s, the issue of war criminals living in Canada, and the Canadian government's lack of interest in searching for and prosecuting these individuals, was the subject of investigative reporting by NBC, CBS, the CBC, Global Television, and the New York Times.[1 Deschênes Commission - Wikipedia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted September 28, 2023 Report Share Posted September 28, 2023 9 hours ago, August1991 said: I oppose the 1913 world of a "short war". OK. A failure to confirm morally obvious conclusions speaks a lot already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted September 28, 2023 Report Share Posted September 28, 2023 (edited) 20 minutes ago, myata said: OK. A failure to confirm morally obvious conclusions speaks a lot already. I have wondered why this disaster of August 1914 started. Think. At the time, everyone alive thought that it would be a "short war". Read accounts of 1914. They are like now. ===. In 1962, Kennedy and Khrushchev knew about war. He lost his older brother. Khrushchev sent men across the river. Edited September 28, 2023 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted September 28, 2023 Report Share Posted September 28, 2023 10 minutes ago, August1991 said: I have wondered why this disaster of August 1914 started. And bringing up totally unrelated, like opposite pseudo-analogies. Bordering on a lie, deliberate one because can one be that (du..) naive, really? There's nothing in common between 1914 and Putin's unprovoked and criminal invasion of a sovereign European country. 1939, sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted September 28, 2023 Report Share Posted September 28, 2023 Regime change in Russia? Napoleon tried this. Hitler tried this. Biden? Is the US administration trying to change the regime in Russia? The Mongols sort of succeeded but only for two centuries. ==== We must all learn how to live in a peaceful multi-polar world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted September 28, 2023 Report Share Posted September 28, 2023 (edited) 21 minutes ago, myata said: .... There's nothing in common between 1914 and Putin's unprovoked and criminal invasion of a sovereign European country. 1939, sure. Sorry, to me, the current situation in the world is not 1939. It is 1913. ==== To me, Putin is like Catherine or Tsar Alexander. We in the West have the chance to negotiate a century of peace - like in 1815 at Vienna, or decades in 1945 at Potsdam. Or we could fall into several decades of death and destruction because of a foolish nationalist dispute in the Balkans - that everyone said would be short. Edited September 28, 2023 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted September 28, 2023 Report Share Posted September 28, 2023 Let me post a clear point: Reagan, Thatcher (and Johnson, Nixon, Kennedy and the people who fought in Vietnam) defeated Soviet Communism None of them wanted to install a new regime in Russia. They wanted to make the world better. I recently took the train from Saigon to Hanoi. We now live in a world where people like me can trade and travel more freely. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted September 28, 2023 Report Share Posted September 28, 2023 32 minutes ago, August1991 said: Sorry, to me, the current situation in the world is not 1939. It is 1913. ==== To me, Putin is like Catherine or Tsar Alexander. That's because you choose to ignore the reality. Or lying. One of the two, which one? Putin behaves exactly like Hitler in 1939, almost like following his blueprint. And you have nothing to counter the facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted September 28, 2023 Report Share Posted September 28, 2023 23 minutes ago, myata said: That's because you choose to ignore the reality. Or lying. One of the two, which one? Putin behaves exactly like Hitler in 1939, almost like following his blueprint. And you have nothing to counter the facts. Disagree. You can ignore me but other people are arguing the same. --- I am pro-American Constitution. I do not want to live in a world where US federal bureaucrats have control without opposition. Such a world would not be stable, peaceful We must learn to live in a multi-polar world. From 1815 to 1914, Europe largely had peace. Alberta? Catholics? French? We people have lived together for centuries in a civilised society - we have avoided wars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted September 28, 2023 Report Share Posted September 28, 2023 58 minutes ago, August1991 said: Disagree. If you disagree without presenting any rational or factual arguments, it's called: ignoring the reality. Fantasy. Or bull.... Happens a lot. A rational discussion is impossible with someone who can create their own private version of reality out of the finger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted September 28, 2023 Report Share Posted September 28, 2023 (edited) The last living WWII-era German Nazis have shockingly few regrets (nypost.com) Yet Trudeau took no action to use the security apparatus of government, RCMP, CSIS, etc. to ensure a former Nazi could not be in the HOC and be cheered as he sat near Zelenskiyy. Edited September 28, 2023 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted September 28, 2023 Report Share Posted September 28, 2023 2 hours ago, August1991 said: Let me post a clear point: Reagan, Thatcher (and Johnson, Nixon, Kennedy and the people who fought in Vietnam) defeated Soviet Communism None of them wanted to install a new regime in Russia. They wanted to make the world better. I recently took the train from Saigon to Hanoi. We now live in a world where people like me can trade and travel more freely. Of course they wanted a regime change in Russia. Biden does not want to install a new regime in Russia but I think a lot of people would like to see it change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted September 28, 2023 Report Share Posted September 28, 2023 Ordinary Men Highly recommended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyMcFarland Posted September 28, 2023 Report Share Posted September 28, 2023 (edited) It was a bit ridiculous that Soviet judges were present at Nuremberg given the vast canvas of atrocities, certainly war crimes, their army had just committed right across Europe. Because so few were held to account we tend to forget all that. We also have a non-zero number of Soviet war veterans in Canada. Edited September 28, 2023 by SpankyMcFarland 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted September 28, 2023 Report Share Posted September 28, 2023 3 hours ago, Aristides said: Ordinary Men Highly recommended. I watched this series, thanks for the call out... i would also recommend it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted September 28, 2023 Report Share Posted September 28, 2023 5 hours ago, August1991 said: From 1815 to 1914, Europe largely had peace. In those times Europe was ruled by empires. Cultures and people were brutally suppressed like Polish rebellion, that was the peace of a concrete parking lot. If you see that as you ideal time then you are an authoritarian with an admiration for empires. Then you may not see the crimes of another neo-imperialist for what they are in the reality. It makes sense, while your ramblings, none really. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted September 29, 2023 Report Share Posted September 29, 2023 23 hours ago, myata said: In those times Europe was ruled by empires. Cultures and people were brutally suppressed like Polish rebellion, that was the peace of a concrete parking lot. If you see that as you ideal time then you are an authoritarian with an admiration for empires. Then you may not see the crimes of another neo-imperialist for what they are in the reality. It makes sense, while your ramblings, none really. He sees it as the ideal time because he doesn't actually know anything about it. ?♂️ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted September 29, 2023 Report Share Posted September 29, 2023 On 9/28/2023 at 8:34 AM, blackbird said: The last living WWII-era German Nazis have shockingly few regrets (nypost.com) Yet Trudeau took no action to use the security apparatus of government, RCMP, CSIS, etc. to ensure a former Nazi could not be in the HOC and be cheered as he sat near Zelenskiyy. The fella invited to Parliament was not a German Nazi. Your link is of zero relevance to the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted September 29, 2023 Report Share Posted September 29, 2023 1 minute ago, TreeBeard said: The fella invited to Parliament was not a German Nazi. Your link is of zero relevance to the issue. OK i'll, bite who was he... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted September 29, 2023 Report Share Posted September 29, 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Army Guy said: OK i'll, bite who was he... Well, he wasn’t German now, was he? I wasn’t tossing a baited hook, but stating a simple fact. Edited September 29, 2023 by TreeBeard 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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