What evidence is there to support Canada being 'systemically racist'?

[Moonbox]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Firstly, provide an actual study within the last decade that illustrates this bias.

Took all of 15 seconds to find this

https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes-get-more-interviews

There's plenty more if you actually want to learn anything about it.  

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Secondly, bias and policy are different animals.  Bias is formed through experience and natural affinity for what is safe and known.  The current attempts to undo biological natural affinity through “leaning into discomfort” won’t change our fight/flight instincts.  

You're literally describing a big part of the issue.  It doesn't take a genius to understand how pervasive and problematic this is for an ethnic minority.  

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

We can certainly be rational and fair, however, by following fair hiring policies.  Our policies are fair.

The formal policies can only do so much when the problem is insidious rather than overt.  

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I’ve always supported leaving names off CV’s.  

A very small number of companies hide the names to HR departments.  That's a good policy, but it's not practical for a lot of businesses.  

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

However, at some point people need to meet.  I don’t think most people today in Canada are racist, certainly not to a degree that would bar someone admittance to opportunities.  

I think meeting someone face to face and actually looking them in the eye helps to humanize and eliminate the "other" element, but it doesn't fix everything.  

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

If you want to further change attitudes, implementing new forms of discrimination isn’t going to warm hearts. It will only breed contempt and, yes, racism.

On this I agree to an extent, but this is a stubborn problem that's persisted for decades and that isn't just going to go away because we hope it will.

[Zeitgeist]

53 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Took all of 15 seconds to find this

https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes-get-more-interviews

There's plenty more if you actually want to learn anything about it.  

You're literally describing a big part of the issue.  It doesn't take a genius to understand how pervasive and problematic this is for an ethnic minority.  

The formal policies can only do so much when the problem is insidious rather than overt.  

A very small number of companies hide the names to HR departments.  That's a good policy, but it's not practical for a lot of businesses.  

I think meeting someone face to face and actually looking them in the eye helps to humanize and eliminate the "other" element, but it doesn't fix everything.  

On this I agree to an extent, but this is a stubborn problem that's persisted for decades and that isn't just going to go away because we hope it will.

Interesting and concerning study, and I agree with you when you said meeting people humanizes them.  I think resumes shouldn’t include names or references to race.  Many of the negative biases people hold are eliminated or reduced as people meet and learn to trust people from other ethnic/racial groups.  This was the value of desegregation, which is all the more reason why creating new forms of identification or grouping by race/ethnicity is bad policy.  Attitudes change as people integrate. I’m seeing a lot of Black Mentoring or Racialized programs.  I’m not sure how these approaches add social currency to minority groups.  I understand the empowerment idea, sharing experiences, and wanting not to feel like a minority group.  Is spending more time around people who look like you the route to removing biases?   Young children from different races playing together don’t seem to have as many problems accepting each other as today’s adults, including the ones who participate in anti-racism training. 

Edited October 13, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[herbie]

6 hours ago, I am Groot said:

You seem to me to be a male Karen ranting incoherently in the dark with no one listening...

Because this is a thread posted by \a blockhead and mainly blochheads are replying

 

5 hours ago, blackbird said:

saw a young FN guy swaggering and stumbling around today

tell me again how you're not racists pretending otherwise.

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, herbie said:

Because this is a thread posted by \a blockhead and mainly blochheads are replying

 

tell me again how you're not racists pretending otherwise.

Your posts are among the most puerile on here.  

[I am Groot]

12 hours ago, herbie said:

Because this is a thread posted by \a blockhead and mainly blochheads are replying

Because questioning it offends you but you aren't able to discuss it rationally, intelligently nor contribute anything but insults.

If you aren't able to defend your opinions you should reconsider holding those opinions.

[Army Guy]

On 10/11/2022 at 3:03 PM, Moonbox said:

I have long complained about race-based hiring in Canada, especially in public-facing positions with lots of interaction with citizens.  The last 3 times I've called CRA, I couldn't understand a damn thing the person on the other end of the line was saying.  I get that part. 

It's dumb to say there's no systemic racism in Canada though.  I don't think you guys really understand what it means.  You're looking for overt examples of racism or something.  You could just go and look at how the average 3rd generation black Canadian makes ~35% less than non-visible minorities.  Trying explaining that without saying something really dumb.  

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/five-charts-that-show-what-systemic-racism-looks-like-in-canada-1.4970352?cache=%3FclipId%3D86116%3FcontactForm%3Dtrue

Yes, we are looking for overt examples i mean your side of the argument is Canada is a systematically racist society, you've pointed out that some employers do actually have issues with hiring people of color, but somehow these few are enough to declare we as a nation are or have racist attitudes. Which I'm pretty sure happens in every nation or society be it white or persons of color. and yet no one has stood up and said Jamica is systematically racist society.

I looked at your charts, I personally think they are slanted to high light their point but fail to take into account things like why there is a wage gap, could it be education, could it be poverty, could it be their surroundings, all of it makes a huge difference. Look at Asians for instance they do not fit in to these charts very well, they are well educated, come from good back grounds for the most part,  

Quote

“Many of us have heard the stories of new immigrants who are doctors who can’t get jobs, engineers who are driving taxi cabs in Toronto. That sort of reincorporation into the labour force is harder for Black people because they can be weeded out because of the colour of their skin.”

This excuse is not fully justified, the government put in place these roadblocks to protect Canadians from people who are not fully qualified and have to prove through further education that they meet the Standards for which our nation has laid out. It is not the best policy, but it is one designed for safety reasons. And it also fails to provide how many black doctors and engineers that have gone through this process are working in their chosen profession.

Quote

Unemployment rates among Black Canadians are higher than other populations, and are more than double the rate of other visible minorities.

Unemployment rates for white people in the Maritimes are higher than people of color, mostly due to the lack of people of color, but again, these numbers increase when there is poverty, high crime rates, low education levels, I come from a poor family background, where i could not afford higher education, and was stuck into jobs that did not make high wages, it was my choice to do something about that, it was hard work improving my education, working jobs i did not like but would give me the experience i needed. My point is this there are people of every race or color that fit in these charts it does not prove we as a nation are racist.

Expectations for higher education

Quote

They work tremendously hard and their aspirations are great. But very few people have told them they can be successful,” she said. “I don't think it’s about funding. Really, I don’t. I think it’s about the belief in self … 'Do I belong here? Can I do this?'”

How does a nation combat this, lack of esteem, this is an individual issue, and there are many governmental programs and private funded programs that counter this. but they are not listed in your charts.  

Quote

"The reality is that racism is expressed not just as conscious acts of hate or violence, but it’s far more complex than that. It evolves out of a set of deeply rooted systems in our country. So deeply rooted that it might be easy to miss.”

And yet they don't list these deeply rooted issues, or they use them out of context twisted to serve their narrative.  like some on here, they say it exists but provide no proof. Look I'm not saying racism does not exist in Canada, but in order to have a systematic racist nation it has to have racist policy's, laws, etc. ... and today i cannot find one policy or law that is slanted towards white people privilege, or high lights all the problems your source has pointed out. What i do find is a nation that is learning to come around and is corrected or correcting most of these issues.

[WestCanMan]

On 10/11/2022 at 11:03 AM, Moonbox said:

I have long complained about race-based hiring in Canada, especially in public-facing positions with lots of interaction with citizens.  The last 3 times I've called CRA, I couldn't understand a damn thing the person on the other end of the line was saying.  I get that part. 

It's dumb to say there's no systemic racism in Canada though.  I don't think you guys really understand what it means.  You're looking for overt examples of racism or something.  You could just go and look at how the average 3rd generation black Canadian makes ~35% less than non-visible minorities.  Trying explaining that without saying something really dumb.  

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/five-charts-that-show-what-systemic-racism-looks-like-in-canada-1.4970352?cache=%3FclipId%3D86116%3FcontactForm%3Dtrue

https://qz.com/198512/america-still-is-the-land-of-opportunities-for-black-immigrants-but-not-their-kids/

If systemic racism is so pervasive and so successful at holding POC down then why doesn't it work on the new guys? 

I have a theory that when people like Barack Obama tell little black kids that "Racist pigs gonna be bustin a cap in yo ass just fer buyin' sum Skittles!", based on no evidence whatsoever, it doesn't set them up for success in life. 

I'd never tell a little black kid that what Michael Brown did was ok, and that he needn't have been concerned about a negative outcome if he assaulted a black cop in his car. 

I'd never do anything to give a little black kid the impression that what Rayshard Brooks did was ok, and that he needn't have been concerned about a negative outcome if he assaulted a black cop  and then shot a taser at his face - I think it's a really bad gamble.

White cops shoot/kill white people all the time. Some folks are so stupid that it's just an inevitability that they're gonna put themselves in danger. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. 

If you wanna help POC, don't tell them that obesity is beautiful because it's a barrier to all kinds of gainful employment. Don't tell them that disrespecting the flag is cool because no one has to hire disrespectful employees. Don't tell them that hating people in positions of power is cool. Don't tell them that cop-hating is cool. Don't tell them that being racist against white people is cool. Basically, don't tell them anything that Libs and Dems tell them. 

Does that make sense to you?

If you hired a life coach to help get you to the next level, do you think they'd tell you: "Stay angry, and focus your anger! There are barriers in place that you can't overcome! Your race is perfect, but other races were slavers, so you should hate them!" 

I personally wouldn't hire a leftist life coach, but that's just me. 

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

Yes, we are looking for overt examples i mean your side of the argument is Canada is a systematically racist society

That's why you're having so much trouble with this topic.  Nobody is saying that Canada is systematically racist.  We're saying that systemic racism is a challenge that ethnic minorities face in Canada.  Those are two very different statements and mean very different things, and we can't really debate many of your points.  

The former is something you consider an accusation meant to put you down or subvert you. 

The latter is an appeal to try to remove challenges that ethnic minorities statistically and also verifiably face.  

I can say in the same breath that Canada is probably one of the least racist countries in the world, while still affirming that systemic racism is a substantial problem problem.  Measuring ourselves against China, Russia or Saudi-Arabia doesn't really help anyone.  

[I am Groot]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

That's why you're having so much trouble with this topic.  Nobody is saying that Canada is systematically racist. 

"Systemic racism is an issue right across the country, in all our institutions, including in all our police forces, including in the RCMP. That's what systemic racism is," said Trudeau when asked about Lucki's comments by reporters during a news conference in Ottawa this morning.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp-systemic-racism-lucki-trudeau-1.5607622

[herbie]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

That's why you're having so much trouble with this topic.  Nobody is saying that Canada is systematically racist.  We're saying that systemic racism is a challenge that ethnic minorities face in Canada.

Which is indistinguishable to someone racist that can't even admit it to themselves. Not even when some institutions will openly admit to systematic racism within.

No, here in this very thread we can see how many think that the systematic racism is in fact the very acts of trying to overcome it.

[Dougie93]

26 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

"Systemic racism is an issue right across the country, in all our institutions, including in all our police forces, including in the RCMP. That's what systemic racism is," said Trudeau when asked about Lucki's comments by reporters during a news conference in Ottawa this morning.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp-systemic-racism-lucki-trudeau-1.5607622

very well then

I am not bound to have any fealty to a racist monarchy

no choice but to invoke the Declaration of Independence therein

free all the slaves everywhere, or die trying

Canada must be dismantled, right down to the wood

every single institution of Canadian governance needs to be razed to the ground

[Dougie93]

On 10/12/2022 at 12:55 PM, I am Groot said:

"Thankfully it is being dismantled..." suggests that parts of this system continue to be 'systemically racist'. Which parts? Where are they?

it's not being dismantled

these self admittedly racist officials are not dismantling the racist system

they have literally done nothing except admit that they are defending & upholding a racist government

they think they can admit that Canada is racist & guilty of committing a genocide

and Canada is not going to have to be brought down as a tyrannical apartheid state that it is ?

they are delusional

obviously Canada has to go the way of South Africa

perhaps Canada can get the ANC to come here and show how it is done

 

[Bill67]

Check out race based data on homicide to understand the  disparity or whatever " evidence " people have to show systemic Racism. If 4 % of the population are charged with 20 % of the homicides, could that explain differences in outcomes?

[Dougie93]

as a white person in Canada

I am perfectly happy to surrender all political authority to non whites in Canada

it's not like I vote nor have political affiliation now, I don't participate in the political process at all

the government has stated that Canada is systemically racist, and guilty of genocide

furthermore, white people have done an absolutely atrocious job of running Canada

Canada is pathetic, not just an ignominious apartheid state, but an international laughing stock

I propose that all white people in Canada be removed from office,

and white people should not be permitted to vote

white Canadians are the silliest most incompetent people on earth

let's make it a law

only non whites should vote, only non whites should hold office

white people in Canada do not deserve to run anything,

after running their own racist country into the ground

again, let's get the South Africans to help Canada rid itself of endless white ignorance & stupidly

Edited October 13, 2022 by Dougie93

[Nefarious Banana]

That ring in the Jack Parow video looks like some of the 'bling' that John Deere hands out with parts/machine purchase . . .

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, Nefarious Banana said:

That ring in the Jack Parow video looks like some of the 'bling' that John Deere hands out with parts/machine purchase . . .

at least John Deere still has a manufacturing plant in Grimsby Ontario

paying decent wages with full benefits

meanwhile, the Crown of Canada is racist, and has committed genocide against its own people

[OftenWrong]

43 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

as a white person in Canada

I am perfectly happy to surrender all political authority to non whites in Canada

it's not like I vote nor have political affiliation now, I don't participate in the political process at all

the government has stated that Canada is systemically racist, and guilty of genocide

furthermore, white people have done an absolutely atrocious job of running Canada

Canada is pathetic, not just an ignominious apartheid state, but an international laughing stock

I propose that all white people in Canada be removed from office,

and white people should not be permitted to vote

white Canadians are the silliest most incompetent people on earth

let's make it a law

only non whites should vote, only non whites should hold office

white people in Canada do not deserve to run anything,

after running their own racist country into the ground

again, let's get the South Africans to help Canada rid itself of endless white ignorance & stupidly

It should include the people who work at banks and financial institutions as well, for holding back visible minorities financially. Starting right at the top, the board of directors.

In fact all corporations

Tim Hortons

Canadian Tire

CBC et al

Telus

 Nike

[Dougie93]

4 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

It should include the people who work at banks and financial institutions as well, for holding back visible minorities financially. Starting right at the top, the board of directors.

oh indeed

white people should be removed from all positions of power, government & corporate, public & private

I without reservation state,  that all the white people in power in Canada,  are absolutely corrupt & incompetent

 

 

[Dougie93]

32 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

 et al

and Kanye West

should be President of the United States

leading the Republican party

[Moonbox]

4 hours ago, I am Groot said:

"Systemic racism is an issue right across the country, in all our institutions, including in all our police forces, including in the RCMP. That's what systemic racism is," said Trudeau when asked about Lucki's comments by reporters during a news conference in Ottawa this morning.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp-systemic-racism-lucki-trudeau-1.5607622

You're still not seeing the distinction.  

Systematically racist is not the same thing as systemic racism

The first is overt, institutionalized and intentional. The latter is insidious, general and often subconscious.  

Edited October 14, 2022 by Moonbox

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

You're still not seeing the distinction.  

Systematically racist is not the same thing as systemic racism

The first is overt, institutionalized and intentional. The latter is insidious, general and often subconscious.  

You’re playing a shell game with language.  Apart from the now Indigenous-maintained Indian Act, there’s virtually no systemic racism in Canada because systemic refers to system policies and procedures.  Systematic also means codified racism, the same thing as systemic.  What does exist is racist attitudes and unconscious bias, which are present in all ethnic/racial groups.  Whites don’t have a monopoly on it.

I agree that changing attitudes can take time and persuasion, but I sincerely believe that racist attitudes diminish with familiarity and trust that grow over time as we live among one another under fair policies, which we have.  Awareness campaigns and education help.

What we shouldn’t do is fight discrimination through new forms of discrimination.

John McWhorter makes the very important point that, though racist attitudes and unconscious bias persist, they generally no longer prevent BIPOC from pursuing their interests and they generally don’t prevent the vast majority of people from different backgrounds from getting along.   That’s what really matters, especially since no anti-racism training or affirmative action program is likely to eradicate or substantially diminish our natural affinity to our in-group (people who look and sound like us), and they certainly won’t eliminate unconscious bias. In fact they cause resentment and racism if they lead to unfair outcomes or characterizations of ethnic/racial groups.

What does matter is how we practically manage to improve fairness and opportunity for all.  It involves fighting all forms of injustice and removing barriers to opportunity for all groups.  

Edited October 14, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[Michael Hardner]

6 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

 

John McWhorter makes the very important point that, though racist attitudes and unconscious bias persist, they generally no longer prevent BIPOC from pursuing their interests and they generally don’t prevent the vast majority of people from different backgrounds from getting along.    

We have white people on here complaining about the number of black people in commercials.  And this person is asking Blacks to ignore systemic racism?

 

Seems like a double standard.

[Moonbox]

10 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Systematic also means codified racism, the same thing as systemic.

No, it really doesn't.  I've already described the difference.  You can reject that and insist on the wrong meaning, but then you guys are just missing the point entirely and arguing with yourselves.  

10 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

What does exist is racist attitudes and unconscious bias, which are present in all ethnic/racial groups.  Whites don’t have a monopoly on it.

Nobody said they do, but we're a predominantly white country with predominantly white leadership, so the bulk of our efforts are better spent focusing on becoming better ourselves rather than pointing at how the Samoan Canadian community doesn't hire enough Latino workers.  

[Zeitgeist]

53 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

No, it really doesn't.  I've already described the difference.  You can reject that and insist on the wrong meaning, but then you guys are just missing the point entirely and arguing with yourselves.  

Nobody said they do, but we're a predominantly white country with predominantly white leadership, so the bulk of our efforts are better spent focusing on becoming better ourselves rather than pointing at how the Samoan Canadian community doesn't hire enough Latino workers.  

Sorry but attitudes are different from policies, codes or rules.  Systemic and systematic refer to policies, codes or rules.  You can’t blame an organization for someone’s private thoughts/attitudes unless that organization promotes racism.  Show me one organization that does.  The only possible systemic/systematic racism I can discern now is in hiring policies that favour racialized people.  Such policies do exist.  

[Michael Hardner]

7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Sorry but attitudes are different from policies, codes or rules.  Systemic and systematic refer to policies, codes or rules.  

Not exactly ... systemic means literally 'of the system'.  I already explained that unpublished practices and attributes of institutions and systems count.  Some examples could be 'stop and frisk' practices of police, federal government communication practices or naming of policies ... all elements of communication from the govt. etc.