What evidence is there to support Canada being 'systemically racist'?

[I am Groot]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

and you're projecting your own insecurity.  ?

Your responses are always the least clever and interesting.

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

I already did.  Scroll up.  

You provided something from a different era. I asked for something today.

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

I have long complained about race-based hiring in Canada, especially in public-facing positions with lots of interaction with citizens.  The last 3 times I've called CRA, I couldn't understand a damn thing the person on the other end of the line was saying.  I get that part. 

It's dumb to say there's no systemic racism in Canada though.  I don't think you guys really understand what it means.  You're looking for overt examples of racism or something.  You could just go and look at how the average 3rd generation black Canadian makes ~35% less than non-visible minorities.  Trying explaining that without saying something really dumb.  

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/five-charts-that-show-what-systemic-racism-looks-like-in-canada-1.4970352?cache=%3FclipId%3D86116%3FcontactForm%3Dtrue

Unless you can point to specific discriminatory policies, you have no right to assume racism is the reason for that pay gap.  What did the first generation arrive with and what did they do to improve their circumstances?  How skilled, educated, persistent, fluent in English or French, etc. were they?

If you want to say that though racist policy isn’t holding back people today but it did generations ago, I agree that the circumstances in which the next generation was born was relatively underprivileged compared to someone who didn’t have that context, but those disproportionalities only tell part of the story.  Certainly with every passing decade those impacts diminished.  Some people became highly successful in the same context.

My grandfather remembered as a teenager seeing signs in windows refusing employment to Catholics.  Canadians whose ancestors fled the American Revolution lost property in America.

How long do you hold the past responsible for present circumstances?

Some would say that the Indigenous are Canada’s most favoured group in terms of free higher education, not having to pay taxes, etc.  Residential schools had many problems and there have been government payouts.  I don’t see value in trying to get reparations from today’s taxpayers for injustices committed by people who are long gone, unless it’s a specific act traceable to an existing institution, but even that has limitations.

Applying new forms of discrimination to counter old ones just creates more discrimination.  

Edited October 11, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[I am Groot]

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

It's dumb to say there's no systemic racism in Canada though.  I don't think you guys really understand what it means.  You're looking for overt examples of racism or something.  You could just go and look at how the average 3rd generation black Canadian makes ~35% less than non-visible minorities.  Trying explaining that without saying something really dumb.  

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/five-charts-that-show-what-systemic-racism-looks-like-in-canada-1.4970352?cache=%3FclipId%3D86116%3FcontactForm%3Dtrue

Ah, at last we have SOMETHING. Even if it is, as usual, just statistics. But expecting identical outcomes from groups with different cultural traits is a mug's game. There are never identical outcomes between groups. Different groups are different!

So let's look at just the first one.

Black Canadians make less annual income than non-racialized Canadians, both for new immigrants and third-generation Canadians.

Now this is a clever bit of parsing. Notice how it ONLY compares black Canadians to white Canadians. Why do that? Why not compare them to other minority groups? Because that wouldn't support the message. Because it turns out Black Canadians earn less than other visible minority groups, as well. Why? 

And the answer is: it's complicated. Almost all Black Canadians are new immigrants and their kids. Most Black immigrants came here as either refugees or with fairly low skilled but needed jobs as live-in housekeepers and child-care or personal support workers. Or came in as family of the above. Low income and no connections means poor. What about their kids? That depends on how much of a culture of education their parents possess. Most black families are from the Caribbean, are single parent families, and most of those are headed by unskilled women. African immigrants are comparative latecomers. If you compare the earnings of people from Nigeria to those from Haiti or Jamaica the Nigerians come out way ahead. Parents tend to be married and they ensure their children get good educations.

So like I said, it's complicated, and this is not evidence of any racial discrimination. I could do the same for all the other statistics but it would be a very long post.

So no. Mere statistics are not evidence of systemic racism.

 

[Bill67]

15 hours ago, Moonbox said:

That's the ONLY systemic racism now?  Oh boy wow!  Great to hear!  Someone tell all of the Indigenous in Canada that everything's been sorted out by Mr. West!

Not sorted by Mr. West although he is correct, it is sorted by the Charter of Rights and human rights legislation which systemically outlaws discrimination based on race.

 

Name a single law in Canada that is racist that outweighs the Charter.

 

Waiting....

Explain why Asians are 6% if incarceration rate and Korean males are Canada's highest earners and why the entire men's  track and basketball team is Black.

 

Answer... meritocracy and behavioral patterns.

 

Myth: invisible evil forces working to oppress people.

[Zeitgeist]

3 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Ah, at last we have SOMETHING. Even if it is, as usual, just statistics. But expecting identical outcomes from groups with different cultural traits is a mug's game. There are never identical outcomes between groups. Different groups are different!

So let's look at just the first one.

Black Canadians make less annual income than non-racialized Canadians, both for new immigrants and third-generation Canadians.

Now this is a clever bit of parsing. Notice how it ONLY compares black Canadians to white Canadians. Why do that? Why not compare them to other minority groups? Because that wouldn't support the message. Because it turns out Black Canadians earn less than other visible minority groups, as well. Why? 

And the answer is: it's complicated. Almost all Black Canadians are new immigrants and their kids. Most Black immigrants came here as either refugees or with fairly low skilled but needed jobs as live-in housekeepers and child-care or personal support workers. Or came in as family of the above. Low income and no connections means poor. What about their kids? That depends on how much of a culture of education their parents possess. Most black families are from the Caribbean, are single parent families, and most of those are headed by unskilled women. African immigrants are comparative latecomers. If you compare the earnings of people from Nigeria to those from Haiti or Jamaica the Nigerians come out way ahead. Parents tend to be married and they ensure their children get good educations.

So like I said, it's complicated, and this is not evidence of any racial discrimination. I could do the same for all the other statistics but it would be a very long post.

So no. Mere statistics are not evidence of systemic racism.

 

This is the hard truth that explains the disparity.  Various Asian groups have been highly successful, but we have to be specific about the groups.  This kind of analysis eventually becomes counterproductive to “equity” because it points to different cultures having different value systems, work ethics, family dynamics, etc.  That can be a painful truth, and though smart people know these are only generalities and there are always many exceptions, people will apply these general cultural traits as stereotypes, so not only does this sort of equity work discriminate against groups it defines as privileged, it can be used to discriminate against the groups it claims to liberate.

The only answer to this problem is ensuring everyone is treated equally under the law and employment policies without racial bias and changing people’s attitudes from one of judging by racial background to looking at character and merit.

Ascribing value to individuals on the basis of race is racism, whether the victim is black, white, or anything else.  Clearly!

[herbie]

Sorry, no. I'm not listing any examples for you.
If you can't find an example then you're either stupid all the way to your bones or you are a racist.

[Zeitgeist]

1 minute ago, herbie said:

Sorry, no. I'm not listing any examples for you.
If you can't find an example then you're either stupid all the way to your bones or you are a racist.

What if instead the consensus is that you can’t back your views with evidence and your views are unfounded and simplistic?

[herbie]

I didn't make the claim there was no evidence. I'm just a white guy who's seen it in action. And heard about it from people affected. And read about it almost everywhere. And laughed at off colour jokes that sustain it.

Want me to prove the sky isn't red while I'm at it?

Which one of the two pigeon holes are you?

[I am Groot]

17 minutes ago, herbie said:

Sorry, no. I'm not listing any examples for you.

Because you are unable to. Because you are unable to support your beliefs with fact.

17 minutes ago, herbie said:

If you can't find an example then you're either stupid all the way to your bones or you are a racist.

So anyone who doesn't agree with you is so easily dismissed?  Why are you even here if you don't want anyone to discuss political or social issues?

[herbie]

Just now, I am Groot said:

So anyone who doesn't agree with you is so easily dismissed?

Damn rights.

[Zeitgeist]

18 minutes ago, herbie said:

I didn't make the claim there was no evidence. I'm just a white guy who's seen it in action. And heard about it from people affected. And read about it almost everywhere. And laughed at off colour jokes that sustain it.

Want me to prove the sky isn't red while I'm at it?

Which one of the two pigeon holes are you?

But you’re talking about social and individual attitudes.  There’s a difference between a racist joke and a racist policy.  I’ve heard such remarks too and said some jokes in poor taste myself.  It’s wrong but it happens among every ethnic group.  People are biologically more comfortable with their in-group, but the in-group isn’t primarily about race for the vast majority of people.  For example, I have more in common with my black colleagues than many of the coworkers that I had when I was doing menial labour as a student.  I feel more “comfortable” with these black colleagues because our lives are more similar.  I have dated interracially many times and I would marry someone from another race.

Have I ever laughed at  derogatory remarks about one of these groups when I was an immature kid around certain people?  Sure.  Is that racist?  Yes.  Is it wrong?  Yes.  I also remember a black group of kids in my high school making comments about white girls and laughing.  Was it wrong?  Yes.  Would people from this black group marry a white girl?   Probably.  Would racism be a barrier to hiring for any of these people?  I don’t think so.  It depends on the individual.  If a jerk chooses to ignore policy and discriminate, they can perhaps get away with that in the short term, but injustice would become apparent.  People are complicated.  Keep the system policies fair, encourage cultural exchange, seek to change attitudes.  Discrimination is never okay, no matter the target group.

The EDI inquisition that’s underway is pushing some of the most discriminatory policy I’ve seen in a modern workplace.  

Edited October 11, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[I am Groot]

1 hour ago, herbie said:

Damn rights.

That sounds  very Trumpian.

[I am Groot]

5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

3. Yes this is true... but did you look into this question before asking us?

Have I researched it beyond a few online youtube personalities?  Not really. I read widely, and try to read an array of media, but the media is, as you are probably aware, neither particularly reliable nor given to presenting much evidence in support of a narrative they champion. Much less against it. It seems like 'systemic racism', an idea which, once again, arose in the US, has been adopted wholesale and is unquestioned among the literati and commentariat. How much of that agreement is because of true belief as opposed to fear of cancellation is the question

I do not think the Conservatives, as a party, believes in systemic racism. But they don't seem to want to talk about it, much. The cowards.  Doug Ford said there wasn't any but when attacked he backpedaled and said there was systemic racism in Ontario. He just didn't know where. The Coward. 

People are just afraid to talk about the issue, much less challenge anyone to support it for fear of cancellation.

Edited October 12, 2022 by I am Groot

[Bill67]

Like I have written, there is no systemic racism as the system is governed by the Charter which forbids it.

 

The data does not support systemic racism because non-whites out perform whites in every category.

 

Just to confirm not one radical left wing advocate has presented a single example of any law or policy in any system that is racist or named a single institution that is racist.

 

But, there is a lot of noise...no facts but outrage and virtue signalling and accusations of racism.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Bill67

[blackbird]

I don't believe Canada is systematically racist, but I do believe that Canada is officially biased against Christian broadcasting in Canada.  One proof of this is the CRTC, the federal government's bureaucracy that regulates broadcasting in Canada.

This is what the CRTC said:

"

In 1993, after the CRTC decided to loosen some regulations having to do with faith-based broadcasting, a number of commissioners expressed their disagreement with the decision.

“We are disturbed by the extent of social, cultural, and racial intolerance which is often rooted in religious intolerance,” said the dissenting commissioners. “One need only look to Bosnia, the Middle East, India, Northern Ireland, South Africa and other world ‘trouble spots’ to observe this phenomenon in its most violent form. Such cultural and racial intolerance is less dramatic and violent, but no less real, in Canada.”

On the other hand, when the CRTC approved the pornography channel Northern Peaks last month, the Citizen reported that they defended the choice by insisting that they do not take a moral perspective on the programming contents in review.  The CRTC allowed the program on the basis that 50 percent of its content be produced in Canada, effectively sponsoring a Canadian pornography industry."

CRTC Nixes Christian Radio Proposals, Supports Porn TV - LifeSite (lifesitenews.com)

So on the one hand the CRTC says that when they approved a porn channel, they say they do not make moral judgments;  but on the other hand they make moral judgments by not allowing Christian channels which do not fit in with their view (moral view) that Christianity is the cause of the trouble and violence in the world.  

Edited October 12, 2022 by blackbird

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

Doug Ford said there wasn't any but when attacked he backpedaled and said there was systemic racism in Ontario.  

I think that there's racism, there's racism in "the" system to some degree, and there's groupthink about it.

[I am Groot]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

I think that there's racism, there's racism in "the" system to some degree, and there's groupthink about it.

Of course there's racism. There always has been and always will be. But it's not singular. And it's not white. It's multicultural and multiracial with individuals in every ethnic and racial group having racist feelings towards a variety of others. White people have no monopoly on stupid. Or on mean. Most of our visible minorities are immigrants from countries whose culture is imbued with racism so deeply it's rarely even questioned, much less frowned upon in public. To expect them to drop all their prejudices because they got a blue passport is a hope doomed to fail.

But that does not mean there is a 'systemic' racism problem where no one can really point to the law, the process, the organization, the regulation or the policy which is behind this systemic racism. Merely presuming it exists due to statistical differences between groups is unreasonable. There are always statistical differences between groups for they are dissimilar in their behaviour , culture and values. Perhaps not enormously so, but enough to cause statistical differences.

Black Canadians are statistically more likely to be immigrants, more likely to be younger, more likely to have lower educations, more likely to have single-parent families. All of that alone is cause for statistical differences. Add in the attraction of 'gangsta' culture popularized by hiphop stars and you have a group (taken as a whole) highly prone to fall behind others on the economic ladder.

[Army Guy]

22 hours ago, eyeball said:

Indignant white guys demanding what evidence is there to support Canada being 'systemically racist'?

So, tell us what Canadian federal laws or policies that we have today that are racist and designed to benefit only white people? It is just a question, can the left answer it without all the drama, or are you just rehashing the left's political rhetoric. 

[Army Guy]

20 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Nobody's actually saying that though.  

So, when they say Canada is systematically racist, who are you talking about, the government, the people, who? what people on here are saying is "it is what it is" take my word on it. they offer no proof or no source just a lot of wind really.

[OftenWrong]

5 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Is that racist?  Yes.  Is it wrong?  Yes.  

Not to worry. Christ forgives you.  

Or rather, everybody does it, and we can never achieve the perfect utopia that the woke left demands. Go to Africa, same thing but in reverse. Hell, go to Yarker and tell them you're from Toronto.

The woke left have got it all backwards. They seek to treat the symptoms but not the disease. There is no cure, in fact. As long as it's in our DNA, as long as we have a thing called culture, there will always be a sense of community and conversely otherness. Fear of the stranger is steeped in our very oldest traditions. They may be murderers, and they bring disease. 

Edited October 12, 2022 by OftenWrong

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, Army Guy said:

So, tell us what Canadian federal laws or policies that we have today that are racist and designed to benefit only white people? It is just a question, can the left answer it without all the drama, or are you just rehashing the left's political rhetoric. 

There are no laws or policies at all that are designed to benefit only white people. There is however a system that's been resulting in that. Thankfully it's being dismantled...in fits and starts but Rome didn't collapse in a day either.

Patience really is your friend. Tapping your toe and looking at your watch while doing your best to look exasperated isn't going to help anyone.

[Moonbox]

8 hours ago, I am Groot said:

You provided something from a different era. I asked for something today.

No, I linked the article showing the income and unemployment disparity for 3rd generation black Canadians vs basically everyone else.  There are only two explanations for that:

1)  A racist one

2) One that acknowledges there are observable and statistical disadvantages to being black in Canada.  

[Moonbox]

2 hours ago, Army Guy said:

So, when they say Canada is systematically racist, who are you talking about, the government, the people, who? what people on here are saying is "it is what it is" take my word on it. they offer no proof or no source just a lot of wind really.

It's not specific.  It's general, widespread, pervasive, often not even overt/intentional - systemic.  

I linked the CTV article showing income and unemployment disparity for 3rd generation black Canadians, as I just told Groot.  I wonder what your thoughts are on that.  

An example of systemic racism is in job hiring.  A lot of job postings receive a deluge of applications applications and managers barely even glance at the vast majority of them.  There is plenty of research out there showing how if a black woman sends out 100 identical resumés each under the names Lashondra and Allison, the latter invariably receives more responses.  

Edited October 12, 2022 by Moonbox

[Michael Hardner]

12 hours ago, I am Groot said:

1. Of course there's racism. There always has been and always will be.

2. But it's not singular. And it's not white. It's multicultural and multiracial with individuals in every ethnic and racial group having racist feelings towards a variety of others. White people have no monopoly on stupid. Or on mean. Most of our visible minorities are immigrants from countries whose culture is imbued with racism so deeply it's rarely even questioned, much less frowned upon in public. To expect them to drop all their prejudices because they got a blue passport is a hope doomed to fail.

3. But that does not mean there is a 'systemic' racism problem where no one can really point to the law, the process, the organization, the regulation or the policy which is behind this systemic racism.

4. Merely presuming it exists due to statistical differences between groups is unreasonable. There are always statistical differences between groups for they are dissimilar in their behaviour , culture and values. Perhaps not enormously so, but enough to cause statistical differences.

1. Ok.  That's a good baseline.

2. Sure, but racism in 'institutions' definitely HAS existed in the past, and those institutions and the attendant power is white.  I would assume the idea is that you can't sanitize individual thoughts but you can fix institutions to offer fairness to "the" public in terms of services, response etc.  IOW - racism is not the problem, racism in our institutions and the corridors of power is a problem.  

3. I know what you are getting at and I will agree insofar as the term 'systemic' seems to be paired with 'racism' without much forethought as to what it means.  Furthermore - 'systemic' racism may not be as much of a problem as racist attitudes in the public or other social problems - like poverty - which are not about racism but indeed impact people of colour more than others, just due to the numbers.  

However - specific to your point, there are examples of systemic racism in Canada such as how the government manages services targeted at FN/Metis/Inuit people, how the police operate in practical terms etc.  If Justin Trudeau actually uses the term 'systemic racism' with respect to federal government operations, he is basically saying that he is at the head of a racist organization and is therefore a racist, which we already know from his blackface act that he likes to trot out.

4. Well, sure but historically I'm pretty sure you can find some racist reasons why, say, black folks have trailed behind since 1833  Can you 'prove' every single black person who is below a certain income line is impacted by slavery ?  Of course not.

----

And I know you're a thoughtful poster so I'm sorry for dismissing your OP however therein is a telling point about discussion on such topics with 'the' public: it sucks.  There are too many people who are putting together arguments targeted at an audience that looks to defend loyalties first and look at facts second - and they are on all sides of the political spectrum.

My question when engaging in such discussions is: why are we talking about these things, and who is the audience ?  In this case, we are "talking about talking about the problem"... determining the framework for discussion, what the terms refer to and having a deeper examination of the mechanics of looking at the problem.  That's a good thing, but it's very easy to confuse with people who do NOT accept point #1 above and refuse to reflect on our social mechanics.

Thanks for the post.

[Zeitgeist]

10 hours ago, Moonbox said:

No, I linked the article showing the income and unemployment disparity for 3rd generation black Canadians vs basically everyone else.  There are only two explanations for that:

1)  A racist one

2) One that acknowledges there are observable and statistical disadvantages to being black in Canada.  

So you ascribe no responsibility to individuals simply because the outcomes aren’t equal.  In that case Asians should be disadvantaged by EDI hiring policies until white people achieve the same higher outcomes as Asians.

You ignore any cultural influences.  “I am Groot” makes important points on this.  There are hard truths in the statistics.  Trying to lay it all at the feet of “systemic racism” is a stretch, considering that no one on here has presented evidence of it.  Nevertheless, Eyeball says it will take time to dismantle.

We’re watching a lot of foot stomping about systemic racism, policies that are blatantly discriminatory against groups of people defined as oppressors, and a shaming of people deemed as privileged solely on the basis of skin colour.

This movement is false, discriminatory, and turning workplaces and schools into tense places where people feel pressured to say things that they know aren’t true for fear of being fired or canceled.   Merit isn’t being honoured and people are being passed over for job opportunities because of this new form of discrimination.

 I won’t even get into the Marxist origins of these ideas.