Is Russiophobia one of Trudeau's "Acceptable Views"?

[WestCanMan]

5 hours ago, Miloburke said:

Hi WestCanMan,

 

Can you explain how Ukraine is a threat to the peaceful existence of Russia? I have tried to look at it from several angles, but it alludes me.

Is Canada a threat to the peaceful existence of the USA? Not at all, we're very weak compared to them.

But look at it from this angle: What if Canada decides to enter into a military pact with China, Iran, Russia and NoKo, allowing them to park soldiers, tanks, artillery, and strategic nukes here? What if it's known to the Americans that we are operating multiple bioweapons research labs here in partnership with China and Iran to work with bioweapons that terrorists are interested in? 

What if the Americans warned us not to to do but we kept inching closer and openly stating our keen interest in furthering such a pact with those guys?

What if the Americans started massing hundreds of thousands of troops on our border and we still kept saying "Let's get this pact going" and it was getting closer to a reality every day?

Then China sends their VP here who says: "Let's get this thing signed"? 

Would the US stand by and let China, Russia, NoKo and Iran park their weapons here? 

 

What did the US do when Cuba built missile silos to hold Russian nukes? Was Cuba a threat to America? Were they a sovereign nation like Ukraine with every right to form their own military alliances? How many people in Canada and the US are angry that Kennedy threatened war with Russia if they didn't remove their nukes? How is the Ukraine situation different?

 

I know that 99% of leftists have already formed their own opinions and they won't be able to understand any of this, whatever.

[Miloburke]

27 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Is Canada a threat to the peaceful existence of the USA? Not at all, we're very weak compared to them.

But look at it from this angle: What if Canada decides to enter into a military pact with China, Iran, Russia and NoKo, allowing them to park soldiers, tanks, artillery, and strategic nukes here? What if it's known to the Americans that we are operating multiple bioweapons research labs here in partnership with China and Iran to work with bioweapons that terrorists are interested in? 

What if the Americans warned us not to to do but we kept inching closer and openly stating our keen interest in furthering such a pact with those guys?

What if the Americans started massing hundreds of thousands of troops on our border and we still kept saying "Let's get this pact going" and it was getting closer to a reality every day?

Then China sends their VP here who says: "Let's get this thing signed"? 

Would the US stand by and let China, Russia, NoKo and Iran park their weapons here? 

 

What did the US do when Cuba built missile silos to hold Russian nukes? Was Cuba a threat to America? Were they a sovereign nation like Ukraine with every right to form their own military alliances? How many people in Canada and the US are angry that Kennedy threatened war with Russia if they didn't remove their nukes? How is the Ukraine situation different?

 

I know that 99% of leftists have already formed their own opinions and they won't be able to understand any of this, whatever.

You have a lot of "what ifs" in that post, however you have not explained how Ukraine is a threat to Russia. But for the sake of the discussion let's see what threat they could be. There are two possibilities that one might argue is a threat. 1. Ukraine joins NATO. The problem is NATO by definition is strictly a defensive treaty. By their bylaws they cannot instigate an attack on Russia. As long as Russia doesn't attack a NATO member they have nothing to worry about. 2. Ukraine joins the UE. The UE by its very nature cannot mount an aggression against Russia because of the complexity of the organization. The physical threat to Russia in both instances is slim to none.

This is not about a threat to Russian sovereignty, but Russia's sphere of influence and its political system. If Ukraine becomes a western style democracy and thrives, then Russians might want the same and Putin cannot allow that to happen and he is prepared to destroy the Ukraine in have his way. Of course he has miscalculated in the extreme. The Ukrainians have not folded up like a cheap blanket, the west has not stood by and much to my surprise neither have multinational corporations. Who would have thought that MacDonald's would shut down their 500 plus stores with the resultant hit to the bottom line. Of course you could argue that it is just good PR, but they are also going to continue to pay their employees for no work.

Let hope Putin doesn't do something stupid.

[WestCanMan]

One more thing milo - once Ukraine signs with NATO Article 5 kicks in, and Russia would be powerless to do anything at that point. 

[WestCanMan]

Just now, Miloburke said:

You have a lot of "what ifs" in that post, however you have not explained how Ukraine is a threat to Russia. But for the sake of the discussion let's see what threat they could be. There are two possibilities that one might argue is a threat. 1. Ukraine joins NATO. The problem is NATO by definition is strictly a defensive treaty. By their bylaws they cannot instigate an attack on Russia. As long as Russia doesn't attack a NATO member they have nothing to worry about. 2. Ukraine joins the UE. The UE by its very nature cannot mount an aggression against Russia because of the complexity of the organization. The physical threat to Russia in both instances is slim to none.

This is not about a threat to Russian sovereignty, but Russia's sphere of influence and its political system. If Ukraine becomes a western style democracy and thrives, then Russians might want the same and Putin cannot allow that to happen and he is prepared to destroy the Ukraine in have his way. Of course he has miscalculated in the extreme. The Ukrainians have not folded up like a cheap blanket, the west has not stood by and much to my surprise neither have multinational corporations. Who would have thought that MacDonald's would shut down their 500 plus stores with the resultant hit to the bottom line. Of course you could argue that it is just good PR, but they are also going to continue to pay their employees for no work.

Let hope Putin doesn't do something stupid.

There are no "what ifs" at all. The US wouldn't let us enter into a pact with China that has an Article 5 in it. FULL STOP. We'd be invaded, 100%. 

If you can't understand this then it's pointless debating with you. 

[WestCanMan]

Do you think Russia wants strategic nukes along their 2,000 km border with Ukraine? Is that an option?

[Moonbox]

1 minute ago, WestCanMan said:

There are no "what ifs" at all. The US wouldn't let us enter into a pact with China that has an Article 5 in it. FULL STOP. We'd be invaded, 100%. 

If you can't understand this then it's pointless debating with you. 

A "what if" is exactly what this is, and a foolish one to boot.  Ukraine isn't part of NATO.  It was refused NATO membership, over and over again, so this is just a silly red-herring. 

Miloburke is exactly right in his assessment.  Putin just can't accept that Ukraine would drift away from Russia and potentially end up happier and more prosperous than the crumbling tragedy that he's led Russia into.  He fears that the same thing could happen in Russia, and given Ukraine's historical ties to Russia his failures would be all the more apparent.  Having a pro-west Slavic nation with sizeable Russian population on his doorstep with deep cultural and familial ties to Russia make it hard/impossible for him to control the political narrative.  You can fool Igor in Russia with censors forever when he regularly speaks to his sister Olga in Kyiv.  

 

[WestCanMan]

20 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

A "what if" is exactly what this is, and a foolish one to boot.  Ukraine isn't part of NATO.  It was refused NATO membership, over and over again, so this is just a silly red-herring. 

Find out what Kamala Harris said about Ukraine joing NATO, just before Russia attacked, and get back to me. 

[suds]

Nato could park missile systems in any of the 3 Baltic states and they would be just as close to Moscow as if they were situated anywhere in Ukraine. And if (as some believe) that Russia's war in Ukraine is a legal one, then it should be just as legal for Ukraine to send in teams to destroy key Russian infrastructure, and target Russian hospitals and schools. I mean who's more afraid of who here??  What Putin really desires is a greater Russia, while Ukraine and the Baltic states see Russia as a threat to their very existence. That's the reasoning behind joining NATO.

[Faramir]

On 3/12/2022 at 1:38 PM, Moonbox said:

Where was the worst of the Islamophobia coming from, I wonder?  Was it from Obama and the "Liberals", or was it from white trash and orange man?

Folks have really selective memories here.  On one hand they can praise the big orange baby and his overt racism, can justify blocking immigration/refugees from muslim and hispanic countries etc, but when Russia invades another country and the world seeks to punish them for it, it's RUSSIAPHOBIA!!!!! AAAAH. 

Less Tucker Carlson and less Kremlin propaganda would do you some good.  The funniest part of about all the random telegram channels and garbage websites folks is that there are absolutely no checks or balances on any of them and Igor from St. Petersburg can make up whatever the hell he wants with a VPN and pretend to be another angry Canadian.  All he has to do is to feed into your anger and frustration and boom, you'll believe anything he says.  

I still maintain even the biggest garbage is better than CNN or MSNBC.

[Faramir]

On 3/13/2022 at 1:59 AM, blackbird said:

Yes, Putin, his circle, and the Russian military are committing war crimes in the Ukraine.  They are deliberately targeting civilians, families, children and destroying complete residential buildings and cities.  Anybody who thinks Russiaphobia is a thing needs to seek mental help. 

quote  

On Saturday, Russia bombarded cities across Ukraine, pounding Mariupol in the south, shelling the outskirts of the capital, Kyiv, and thwarting the efforts of people trying to flee the violence.

In Mariupol, which has endured some of the worst punishment since Russia invaded, efforts to bring food, water and medicine into the port city of 430,000 and to evacuate civilians, were prevented by unceasing attacks. More than 1,500 people have died in Mariupol during the siege, according to the mayor's office, and the shelling has even interrupted efforts to bury the dead in mass graves.  unquote   

Russians strike closer to Polish border, port city reels (msn.com)

What do you think of Ukraine cozying up to that little globalist fascist, Zuckerberg?

[Faramir]

Anyone want to address the fact that the Ukraine contributed to the fake Steele document?  I mean I thought liberals were against other countries interfering in US election?

[cougar]

15 hours ago, myata said:

OK when you get this kind of "argument" you know that further discussion is pointless. What does "Blackwater" have to do with Russian crimes in Ukraine? Bombing hospitals, killing children, razing entire cities?

 

Did you watch it?  Blackwater killing civilians - children and all.  The US government that hired them, supposedly distancing themselves from them, but renewing their contract in 2007 and never keeping any of them accountable.  That is because US army and them are basically the same same thing - going after the same interests.

You can also witness the propaganda, calling those killers "civilians".    US civilians in the middle of the war in Fallujiah?  Civilians, my ass!

Don't care what you call the arguments but it is clear what Russia does today is not in any way different from what USA did in Iraq, Afghanistan and other countries around the world.

[suds]

1 hour ago, Faramir said:

Anyone want to address the fact that the Ukraine contributed to the fake Steele document?  I mean I thought liberals were against other countries interfering in US election?

Yeah, it was a clear case of collusion between the Ukraine and the Democrats.  But i can't really blame the Ukraine government as they needed all the help they could get and figured the Democrats were going to win.

[-TSS-]

When the Warsaw Pact was dismantled 30 years ago many people said that NATO should return the favour and do the same.

I guess there aren't a lot of people today who think that it would have been a good idea to dismantle NATO.

[suds]

3 minutes ago, cougar said:

Did you watch it?  Blackwater killing civilians - children and all.  The US government that hired them, supposedly distancing themselves from them, but renewing their contract in 2007 and never keeping any of them accountable.  That is because US army and them are basically the same same thing - going after the same interests.

You can also witness the propaganda, calling those killers "civilians".    US civilians in the middle of the war in Fallujiah?  Civilians, my ass!

Don't care what you call the arguments but it is clear what Russia does today is not in any way different from what USA did in Iraq, Afghanistan and other countries around the world.

You're right about US action in Iraq but as has been pointed out Afghanistan is a completely different story.  The US warned the Taliban government they were illegally allowing terrorist organizations to train in Afghanistan and would be held directly responsible for any attacks against the US. So tell me what this has to do with Ukraine?

[suds]

12 minutes ago, -TSS- said:

When the Warsaw Pact was dismantled 30 years ago many people said that NATO should return the favour and do the same.

I guess there aren't a lot of people today who think that it would have been a good idea to dismantle NATO.

For the first time in their history there's a majority of Swedes and Finns who want to join NATO.

[Nationalist]

What a massive cluster-fuck.

America...this is what happens when you elect really stupid people to the Whitehouse.

He's now negotiating with the Iranians, through the Russians and Chinese, because Iran refuses to deal directly with the USA, for more oil.

Really America...is this at all "better"?

[Moonbox]

3 hours ago, Faramir said:

I still maintain even the biggest garbage is better than CNN or MSNBC.

There's plenty of garbage on CNN and MSNBC too, but nothing like Tucker Carlson.  

 

16 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

He's now negotiating with the Iranians, through the Russians and Chinese, because Iran refuses to deal directly with the USA, for more oil.

Wait a second...you think that the Russians (who are trying to hold the world hostage on energy) are negotiating on behalf of the Americans (who have sanctioned them to oblivion), to circumvent the only leverage the Russians have?  Am I getting this right? ?

 

[WestCanMan]

4 hours ago, suds said:

Nato could park missile systems in any of the 3 Baltic states and they would be just as close to Moscow as if they were situated anywhere in Ukraine. 

1) Ukraine is several times bigger than all of those states. It's easier for Russia to find targets that they need to eliminate in a small space than in a large one. It's easier for their spies to get the info from that small area. 

2) Those Baltic states are a problem, but you eat an elephant one bite at a time. Russia is doing what they can right now. 

[Nationalist]

15 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

There's plenty of garbage on CNN and MSNBC too, but nothing like Tucker Carlson.  

 

Wait a second...you think that the Russians (who are trying to hold the world hostage on energy) are negotiating on behalf of the Americans (who have sanctioned them to oblivion), to circumvent the only leverage the Russians have?  Am I getting this right? ?

 

https://www.independentsentinel.com/biden-has-russia-negotiating-an-iran-nuke-deal-for-us/

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/08/politics/joe-biden-saudi-arabia-venezuela-iran-russia-oil/index.html

[cougar]

2 hours ago, suds said:

You're right about US action in Iraq but as has been pointed out Afghanistan is a completely different story.  The US warned the Taliban government they were illegally allowing terrorist organizations to train in Afghanistan and would be held directly responsible for any attacks against the US. So tell me what this has to do with Ukraine?

It is the parallels between one western country invading an eastern country and one eastern country invading another eastern country.

The Taliban, by the way remained the legitimate government of Afghanistan, clearly with the US admitting defeat and leaving the country.

"Terrorist", "National hero", "Coward", "brave fighters"  are all relative terms depending on which side you are on.

However, the location where the fighting takes place and the party or actions provoking it or initiating it are pretty important and cannot be changed by propaganda.

[Zeitgeist]

8 hours ago, Miloburke said:

You have a lot of "what ifs" in that post, however you have not explained how Ukraine is a threat to Russia. But for the sake of the discussion let's see what threat they could be. There are two possibilities that one might argue is a threat. 1. Ukraine joins NATO. The problem is NATO by definition is strictly a defensive treaty. By their bylaws they cannot instigate an attack on Russia. As long as Russia doesn't attack a NATO member they have nothing to worry about. 2. Ukraine joins the UE. The UE by its very nature cannot mount an aggression against Russia because of the complexity of the organization. The physical threat to Russia in both instances is slim to none.

This is not about a threat to Russian sovereignty, but Russia's sphere of influence and its political system. If Ukraine becomes a western style democracy and thrives, then Russians might want the same and Putin cannot allow that to happen and he is prepared to destroy the Ukraine in have his way. Of course he has miscalculated in the extreme. The Ukrainians have not folded up like a cheap blanket, the west has not stood by and much to my surprise neither have multinational corporations. Who would have thought that MacDonald's would shut down their 500 plus stores with the resultant hit to the bottom line. Of course you could argue that it is just good PR, but they are also going to continue to pay their employees for no work.

Let hope Putin doesn't do something stupid.

But Russia wants all the western goodies too.   The answer is to win culturally.  The voice of freedom always wins.  

[blackbird]

5 hours ago, Faramir said:

What do you think of Ukraine cozying up to that little globalist fascist, Zuckerberg?

I don't believe or follow that kind of stuff, that sounds questionable.

[myata]

9 hours ago, suds said:

So tell me what this has to do with Ukraine?

Can't get that answer, already tried in vain. We have to guess: if Rob got away with robbing someone some years back it should be ok for them to kill now. I.e. not about Rob's wrongdoings but how we can rationalize and justify our crimes now.

[myata]

6 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Russia is doing what they can right now. 

"What they can" means bombing hospitals, killing civilians, children, razing cities, invading and occupying parts of a sovereign independent country in Europe. No need for general wording. No need to look the other way. By your moral standards this is allowed, the only take.