Public health care system allowed thousands of non-Covid patients to die across Canada

[Yzermandius19]

11 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

it about evil liars trying to use the system to kill people...

that's a strawman

yet it's still closer to the mark

than than the system is just following the science

and the draconian crackdowns are helping

 

the actual truth is

the road to hell is paved with good intentions

those shouting science the loudest know the least about it

and think they are helping when they just make the problem worse

out of ignorance

and these are the people making the calls

not actual experts

who get railroaded by these captains of empathy at every turn

the ones making the calls

their feelings don't care about the facts

anyone stating facts the contradict their feelings will be cancelled

confirmation bias is a helluva drug

Edited December 14, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Shady]

3 hours ago, cannuck said:

Partisan BS all put aside:  If getting government completely out of the sick care process worked, then the US would have costs similar to ours instead of double and their results would be better, not the dismally worse that they are.

Trying to treat medicine (a social service) as a business simply doesn't work all that well - except for the minority that can afford good sick care.   I think you will find the COVID experience in the US was little different for other patients from what it was here.   AND, they had and continue to have far higher mortality results.   

Really sad that people on waiting lists died or deteriorated into untreatable status, but you could say the same thing about putting them in the place of someone who would have died without the ability of the available facilities to treat their Wuhan Virus.

You think that the government is complete out of health care in the United States?  Have you heard of Medicare, Medicaid and CHIP?  Medicare and Medicaid funding is the largest expenditure of the American federal budget.   You're answering partisan B.S. with more partisan B.S.

[Shady]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. This is obvious to many of us.
2. One of the side effects I found weird about capitalistic healthcare was the government having to bail out hospitals who were losing money because they couldn't do plastic surgery.
3. Risk assessment is something that the general 'public' is very bad at.  If it were up to them, we wouldn't wear seat belts because of the risk they would trap you in a burning car...

Risk assessment is one thing, but allowing younger people with treatable  cancer to die, so that 80 year olds can live longer might not be the best solution to covid.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Shady

[cougar]

8 hours ago, blackbird said:

I am not talking about strict Marxist doctrine.  I am talking about brutal dictatorships, which you would find in Marxist type government, that steamrolls over human rights and leaves large numbers of people dead it's wake.  This also happened in Fascist, Socialist/Communist dictatorships in the world.  People are so accustomed to benevolent government handing out cheques to millions of people, they do not see what is happening to many victims around them in their benevolent country.

You may want to read a little about Marxism - start with Wikipedia.   It may turn out it is something different from what you thought it is and you might be using the term out of context.

[bush_cheney2004]

4 hours ago, cannuck said:

Partisan BS all put aside:  If getting government completely out of the sick care process worked, then the US would have costs similar to ours instead of double and their results would be better, not the dismally worse that they are.

 

There it is....right on time...the reflexive excuse for any deficiency in Canada's health (sick) care system.   Never mind that government is not "out of the process" in the U.S., and not completely in control of the Canadian process either.

Birds gotta fly...fish gotta swim...and some Canadians have to point at the USA when challenged on health care outcomes.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Yzermandius19 said:

that's a strawman

Well, then it's your strawman.  Here's your quote "the feigned altruism is simply a facade to assist the endemic corruption achieve their blatant power grabs"

You're angry at someone, it's clear, and your posts are about your anger not about looking at a problem objectively.

[Yzermandius19]

20 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

You're angry at someone, it's clear, and your posts are about your anger not about looking at a problem objectively.

now who is the mindreader?

throw more stones from your glass house, character assassinator

Edited December 14, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[blackbird]

2 hours ago, cougar said:

You may want to read a little about Marxism - start with Wikipedia.   It may turn out it is something different from what you thought it is and you might be using the term out of context.

Nice diversion from the central issue of the criminal death of thousands of Canadians.

[cougar]

57 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Nice diversion from the central issue of the criminal death of thousands of Canadians.

Happens when you start using terminology incongruous with the subject at hand.  But you do read on Marxism so you are better prepared next time.

[myata]

As above in this thread, Covid fatality rate in Ontario + Quebec is about 1 : 1,000 that is lower than the risk of a traffic accident with injuries. And moreover, it's very heavily skewed toward higher risk groups, with up to 100 times higher risk.

It clearly shows to anyone who is willing to observe and think that a massive "sky is falling" catastrophe doesn't exist in the reality only in some interpretations and reverberations of it produces by some outlets. And certainly it is not clear how and why it could justify arbitrary and indiscriminate measures.

It does seem that there are two specific problems for a modern, smart and effective public system. One is protecting vulnerable. Yes, instruments exist but it's not only holy vaccination panacea and all eggs in one basket, again.

And the second one is how to handle a temporary influx, a wave of mostly moderate cases, though some would develop into more severe ones, without affecting core functions of the system, except maybe really low priority ones. Again, a challenge for a smart, effective, efficient and modern team, not a Heaven's punishment to stomp around the fire to the beat of a drum. Not a dumbly-heroic let's defeat it forever poster either it just doesn't work in the reality, std.

But what if we don't know or forgot everything else, in 150 of unlimited bureaucratic evolution? Then all problems have to be nails, as the saying goes.

[blackbird]

6 minutes ago, myata said:

As above in this thread, Covid fatality rate in Ontario + Quebec is about 1 : 1,000 that is lower than the risk of a traffic accident with injuries. And moreover, it's very heavily skewed toward higher risk groups, with up to 100 times higher risk.

It clearly shows to anyone who is willing to observe and think that a massive "sky is falling" catastrophe doesn't exist in the reality only in some interpretations and reverberations of it produces by some outlets. And certainly it is not clear how and why it could justify arbitrary and indiscriminate measures.

It does seem that there are two specific problems for a modern, smart and effective public system. One is protecting vulnerable. Yes, instruments exist but it's not only holy vaccination panacea and all eggs in one basket, again.

And the second one is how to handle a temporary influx, a wave of mostly moderate cases, though some would develop into more severe ones, without affecting core functions of the system, except maybe really low priority ones. Again, a challenge for a smart, effective, efficient and modern team, not a Heaven's punishment to stomp around the fire to the beat of a drum. Not a dumbly-heroic let's defeat it forever poster either it just doesn't work in the reality, std.

But what if we don't know or forgot everything else, in 150 of unlimited bureaucratic evolution? Then all problems have to be nails, as the saying goes.

Depends whether you are one of the one's in need of heart or cancer surgery to save your life and you have been sent home and put on a list for the undetermined future, or one of the one's in the ICU with Covid trying to stay alive.  One's particular situation determines one's perspective.

[blackbird]

29 minutes ago, cougar said:

Happens when you start using terminology incongruous with the subject at hand.  But you do read on Marxism so you are better prepared next time.

Marxism exists within our system.  The system is not black or white.  Many think the system can do no wrong.  Many people in Marxist-Leninist/Communist China think their system is perfect too.  One's perspective depends on whether you have been a victim or not.  If you have been thrown in prison in China because of your beliefs, you will have a certain perspective about the system.  If you are one of the ones needing urgent heart surgery and are sitting at home (in effect on death row) you will have a certain perspective about the system.  If you are not in that situation, you may think everything is going as it should be, but you are totally wrong.  Yes, it can be a form of Marxism within such a system.

Edited December 14, 2021 by blackbird

[myata]

2 hours ago, blackbird said:

Depends whether you are one of the one's in need of heart or cancer surgery to save your life and you have been sent home and put on a list for the undetermined future, or one of the one's in the ICU with Covid trying to stay alive.  One's particular situation determines one's perspective.

Correct, evolution is not about do more of the same, or just do nothing at all, yes like in your example. It's about finding new ways, new solutions for new environments and problems. That's why it worked for lizards and birds but not for the dinosaurs.

[cougar]

2 hours ago, blackbird said:

Yes, it can be a form of Marxism within such a system.

Again, you are using the name of a person - Marx, to describe things he never wrote about or envisioned.

Find it in his theory where exactly he mentioned that the "proletariat" need to be controlled and oppressed.

If you can't, don't use his name.

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, cougar said:

Find it in his theory where exactly he mentioned that the "proletariat" need to be controlled and oppressed.

If you can't, don't use his name.

They can always just redefine things to agree with their opinions.

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, cougar said:

Again, you are using the name of a person - Marx, to describe things he never wrote about or envisioned.

Find it in his theory where exactly he mentioned that the "proletariat" need to be controlled and oppressed.

If you can't, don't use his name.

It seems you are offended that Marx’s theories appear in conflict with Marxism as a reality. 

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

They can always just redefine things to agree with their opinions.

Quote Marxism is a method of socioeconomic analysis that uses a materialist interpretation of historical development, better known as historical materialism, to understand class relations and social conflict as well as a dialectical perspective to view social transformation. It originates from the works of 19th-century German philosophers Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. As Marxism has developed over time into various branches and schools of thought, currently no single, definitive Marxist theory exists.[1]  Unquote    - Wikipedia

So basically Marxism is an anti-Bible, anti-Christian, materialistic ideology that allows it's followers who are in control of a situation to do whatever they feel like doing to suit the immediate demands facing them.  There is no requirement to follow any human rights principles or Biblical principles of compassion or fairness.  It is basically an atheistic system where cold, brutal means can be used.  Communism developed out of Marx's theories.

If following a certain policy such as giving the highest priority to Covid patients and shunting everyone else off to a holding list pleases their political bosses, satisfies the media attention which is focused on Covid,  and makes the public think they are doing things the best way, then that will be the way they follow.  Since people requiring surgery do not appear to be in any immediate emergency, giving all the attention to Covid patients seems like the most popular thing to do.  Those awaiting surgery who die quietly in the background one by one will not be in the media anyway and nobody will be much the wiser.  That is atheistic Marxism.

[OftenWrong]

4 hours ago, blackbird said:

Depends whether you are one of the one's in need of heart or cancer surgery to save your life and you have been sent home and put on a list for the undetermined future, or one of the one's in the ICU with Covid trying to stay alive.  One's particular situation determines one's perspective.

Why can they not both be accommodated? Why must we be forced to choose who lives and who will be let to die? While the wards are dark and empty, and the surgeon stayed home.

It is an absurd choice to make, one that need not be made by a civilized society, not one as wealthy as ours. 

Yet rather than come up with solutions to alleviate the burden on hospitals, we collapse our society instead. Then give away billions that could have been used in much better ways to help defeat covid and save lives.

So tell you what, tell you what.

You people carry on with your marxism and your redefined scientific things. It just further proves what has always been abundantly clear, we are on a lost ship of fools.

[blackbird]

24 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Why can they not both be accommodated? Why must we be forced to choose who lives and who will be let to die? While the wards are dark and empty, and the surgeon stayed home.

It is an absurd choice to make, one that need not be made by a civilized society, not one as wealthy as ours. 

Yet rather than come up with solutions to alleviate the burden on hospitals, we collapse our society instead. Then give away billions that could have been used in much better ways to help defeat covid and save lives.

So tell you what, tell you what.

You people carry on with your marxism and your redefined scientific things. It just further proves what has always been abundantly clear, we are on a lost ship of fools.

Yes of course they should both be accommodated.  Everyone has as much right to urgent health care as anyone else in a public health care system.  And political leaders letting the health authorities shut down surgeries for thousands of heart and cancer patients will probably save the health care system millions of dollars.  So there is that advantage to it.  Why they couldn't pump more money into health care in this pandemic, convert more beds into ICUs and open more facilities to keep the surgeries going is hard to understand.  People who have surgery would stand a much better chance of survival and maybe not have to be put in a fully equipped ICU than not receiving the urgent surgery at all.  What they are doing just doesn't make sense.  They seem to have billions of dollars for everything else. 

Edited December 15, 2021 by blackbird

[OftenWrong]

13 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Yes of course they should both be accommodated.  Everyone has as much right to urgent health care as anyone else in a public health care system.  And political leaders letting the health authorities shut down surgeries for thousands of heart and cancer patients will probably save the health care system millions of dollars.  So there is that advantage to it.  Why they couldn't pump more money into health care in this pandemic, convert more beds into ICUs and open more facilities to keep the surgeries going is hard to understand.  People who have surgery would stand a much better chance of survival and maybe not have to be put in a fully equipped ICU than not receiving the urgent surgery at all.  What they are doing just doesn't make sense.  They seem to have billions of dollars for everything else.  But I guess a certain segment of the population is disposable.  

Glad that you brought these issues forward. I have tried to raise them as well, but was dismissed as a fool. One poster called me a nazi, and some others expressed their approval of said name-calling.

Well, excuse my french but look at you #%^*ers now.

 

[eyeball]

On 12/14/2021 at 6:25 AM, Michael Hardner said:

3. Risk assessment is something that the general 'public' is very bad at.  If it were up to them, we wouldn't wear seat belts because of the risk they would trap you in a burning car...

I still can't help but chuckle when people ask where the seat belts are on the boat, especially after telling them not to inflate their life vests until they've left the cabin and have jumped into the water.

"But what if we get sucked into the whirlpool"...

The wheels in their minds go round and round...

[OftenWrong]

8 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I still can't help but chuckle when people ask where the seat belts are on the boat, especially after telling them not to inflate their life vests until they've left the cabin and have jumped into the water.

"But what if we get sucked into the whirlpool"...

The wheels in their minds go round and round...

You’re still alive? I lost a 5 dollar bet.    

[taxme]

On 12/13/2021 at 9:35 AM, blackbird said:

It is a huge tragedy that should never have happened.  One example is a woman in Alberta who had cancer was scheduled for surgery and brought into the hospital.  At the last minute she was told she could not have her surgery because there were no ICU beds available for her.  She was then put on a waiting list.  Then she was later told that her cancer had progressed too far and she was no longer a candidate for surgery because she is terminal now.  This is the kind of thing that has happened to thousands of heart and cancer patients across Canada during the pandemic.  Covid patients are given top priority and other people in need of life-saving surgeries are put on waiting list indefinitely.  I believe this is a result of a uncaring public health system which operates in a very clumsy, un-compassionate manner.  It decided that Covid patients were all that mattered in hospitals and basically rejected everyone else that might take up a bed in an ICU.  This is a kind of Marxist ideology.  What the exact reason for this policy is I don't know, but it is obviously wrong and is not providing proper life-saving health care for many Canadians.  It is a brutal ideology of mass production using tunnel vision which makes no allowances.  Once the pandemic emergency became widespread, all other people were just wiped off the radar.  Shocking.

I would like to really know as to how many people waiting for surgery have died because of covid? I cannot believe that hospitals would deny anyone life saving treatment for their ailments like cancer so that they can keep saying that there is no room for those people which of course is one big lie.

Shocking that doctors that took an oath to do no harm are doing just that. Many of them are harming their patients. The hospital administrators should be ashamed of themselves for what they are doing to helpless patients. This is what happens when they the peasants have allowed themselves to be lied to by telling them that covid patients are more important than people who are in desperate need of surgery. This is a criminal act in the making. 

I have read that the many covid patients that were in one of those ICU's beds have died because they were being treated with some breathing like apparatus, and being fed Remdesivir, a drug that is very harmful to the kidneys, which eventually will shut down the patients kidneys, where then the patient dies. Without ones kidneys working properly, we would all die. The evilness of this covid hoax and farce will never end because of they the peasants. These peasants have allowed this covid farce to continue on and they are going to pay big time for their ignorance and subservience to this medical tyranny covid madness. 

Now they will  be once again conned into believing that this Omnipron or Omnicon is now worse than the other two. Booster jabs will be suggested and after that booster jabs will become mandatory. Wake up all you fools and idiots out there, you are being made fools of every day by these lying politicians and the lying media. this is all about pushing vaccines and nothing more. Plenty of evil satanic scum have and are still making lots of money of this lying scamdemic. Sadly, it is the peasants that are paying a big price for their stupidity and their gross ignorance.

Do not take the booster if you value your health. It's your call now. ?

[taxme]

17 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Why can they not both be accommodated? Why must we be forced to choose who lives and who will be let to die? While the wards are dark and empty, and the surgeon stayed home.

It is an absurd choice to make, one that need not be made by a civilized society, not one as wealthy as ours. 

Yet rather than come up with solutions to alleviate the burden on hospitals, we collapse our society instead. Then give away billions that could have been used in much better ways to help defeat covid and save lives.

So tell you what, tell you what.

You people carry on with your marxism and your redefined scientific things. It just further proves what has always been abundantly clear, we are on a lost ship of fools.

It's not about saving lives of people anymore. It is ll about the money and nothing more and to try to pump as much vaccine that they can into our fragile bodies. Everybody that is pushing this covid medical tyranny madness and vaccines are in it for the power and control over we the peasants or for the money.

The world has truly become an evil place to live in when it comes to some of those evil satanic scumbags out there who say that they care about us but in reality they could careless or give a chit about we the peasants. Our politicians and the media have become enemy #1 to we the peasants. Believe it or not. ?

I was wtaching the news on Global this morning and I watched as our lying politicians and their lying so called health bureaucrats get into overdrive and are now trying to make this Omni"con" virus worse than the other two. It went on for about an half an hour trying to once again convince and put more fear and panic into those fools and buffoons who will listen to their paranoia campaign that we must all get a booster jab or else we will die once again.

It was a big laugh for me to watch these lying sob's mentioned above trying to scare the hell out of we the peasants. This is only supposed to be a very mild form of a virus but yet those lying batards are trying to make it appear as though this Omnicon virus is the real thing. The plague.Don't allow yourselves to get conned once again. Refuse the booster. By doing so, this will end this medical tyranny madness for good. Only you can end this bloody covid madness. ?

[eyeball]

37 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

You’re still alive? I lost a 5 dollar bet.    

Sorry to disappoint.