Public health care system allowed thousands of non-Covid patients to die across Canada

[blackbird]

It is a huge tragedy that should never have happened.  One example is a woman in Alberta who had cancer was scheduled for surgery and brought into the hospital.  At the last minute she was told she could not have her surgery because there were no ICU beds available for her.  She was then put on a waiting list.  Then she was later told that her cancer had progressed too far and she was no longer a candidate for surgery because she is terminal now.  This is the kind of thing that has happened to thousands of heart and cancer patients across Canada during the pandemic.  Covid patients are given top priority and other people in need of life-saving surgeries are put on waiting list indefinitely.  I believe this is a result of a uncaring public health system which operates in a very clumsy, un-compassionate manner.  It decided that Covid patients were all that mattered in hospitals and basically rejected everyone else that might take up a bed in an ICU.  This is a kind of Marxist ideology.  What the exact reason for this policy is I don't know, but it is obviously wrong and is not providing proper life-saving health care for many Canadians.  It is a brutal ideology of mass production using tunnel vision which makes no allowances.  Once the pandemic emergency became widespread, all other people were just wiped off the radar.  Shocking.

Edited December 13, 2021 by blackbird

[Michael Hardner]

It's a tragedy.  I would like to see a comparison against other countries though.  We did a lot better than some.

The 'Marxist ideology' comment comes out of nowhere, and is likely a result of you being afraid of bogeymen under your bed.   Marxist and Communist parties got about 4,500 votes each in the election - far less than the Rhino party even.

You need to stop being hysterical and start asking yourself what you don't know.  That's what grown-ups do, they understand the limits of their abilities you see.  Cheers.

[dialamah]

It's called triage.  Covid patients come in on the brink and are given life-saving care.  Someone who isn't in crisis comes in, and has to wait, sometimes too long.  

I agree with Michael that it's a tragedy that we needed to triage in this way.

[Shady]

14 minutes ago, dialamah said:

It's called triage.  Covid patients come in on the brink and are given life-saving care.  Someone who isn't in crisis comes in, and has to wait, sometimes too long.  

I agree with Michael that it's a tragedy that we needed to triage in this way.

I disagree that it’s how we needed to triage.  I think if we could go back and do it over, we would’ve tweaked things a bit.

[dialamah]

31 minutes ago, Shady said:

I disagree that it’s how we needed to triage.  I think if we could go back and do it over, we would’ve tweaked things a bit.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

[cougar]

5 hours ago, blackbird said:

This is a kind of Marxist ideology.  

Can you provide us with a reference to the Marxist ideology, so we can all educate ourselves, please?

[Shady]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

Hindsight is always 20/20.

True.  But even at the time, many were saying that suspending cancer screenings etc was a very bad idea.

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, cougar said:

Can you provide us with a reference to the Marxist ideology, so we can all educate ourselves, please?

Marxist ideology in a general sense is when government or those who are making decisions, make blanket decisions that affect whole populations without taking into account individual cases and circumstances.  An example would be the blanket decision to triage people on the basis of treating only Covid patients because they need immediate treatment and not treating heart and cancer patients simply because they are not in an immediate emergency.  But this hides the fact that just leaving them means their condition would just get worse and they would eventually die and never receive their surgeries to save their lives.  This is what happened.  It is sort of a Communist or Marxist state ordained brutality.

[OftenWrong]

People who think health care is a "zero sum game".

Until they need it of course. Then they learn

[Yzermandius19]

10 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Marxist and Communist parties got about 4,500 votes each in the election

they received at least 86% of the vote and won 306 seats in 2021

they totally dominate Canadian politics

Edited December 14, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[cougar]

6 hours ago, blackbird said:

Marxist ideology in a general sense is when government or those who are making decisions, make blanket decisions that affect whole populations without taking into account individual cases and circumstances. 

Isn't this valid for any form of government?

Your individual case and circumstances may be considered to some extent at tax return time, provided you earned money and paid tax, but I see no other time and place where these circumstances are of any regard to your government.

Just as a thought, it would be nice to see actual written statements made by Marx, illustrating your point.  Have you read him, and can you give us examples?

[blackbird]

2 hours ago, cougar said:

Isn't this valid for any form of government?

Your individual case and circumstances may be considered to some extent at tax return time, provided you earned money and paid tax, but I see no other time and place where these circumstances are of any regard to your government.

Just as a thought, it would be nice to see actual written statements made by Marx, illustrating your point.  Have you read him, and can you give us examples?

I am not talking about strict Marxist doctrine.  I am talking about brutal dictatorships, which you would find in Marxist type government, that steamrolls over human rights and leaves large numbers of people dead it's wake.  This also happened in Fascist, Socialist/Communist dictatorships in the world.  People are so accustomed to benevolent government handing out cheques to millions of people, they do not see what is happening to many victims around them in their benevolent country.

Edited December 14, 2021 by blackbird

[myata]

What if this is a challenge (can you spell: "e-v-o-l-u- and so on)? Adapt, improve, make things better... or become a slow and sticky muddy marsh locked into itself and its past. Has anyone promised you that things would be exactly as they were at the holy times of Confederation, never a slightest change, ever?

[cannuck]

Partisan BS all put aside:  If getting government completely out of the sick care process worked, then the US would have costs similar to ours instead of double and their results would be better, not the dismally worse that they are.

Trying to treat medicine (a social service) as a business simply doesn't work all that well - except for the minority that can afford good sick care.   I think you will find the COVID experience in the US was little different for other patients from what it was here.   AND, they had and continue to have far higher mortality results.   

Really sad that people on waiting lists died or deteriorated into untreatable status, but you could say the same thing about putting them in the place of someone who would have died without the ability of the available facilities to treat their Wuhan Virus.

Edited December 14, 2021 by cannuck

[cannuck]

1 minute ago, cannuck said:

oops, we need a delete post button

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by cannuck

[myata]

Social services work well (that is, for the society) only in a society that is alive and awake. Otherwise, it'll end up more or less the same, only bucks going into different pockets.

[Michael Hardner]

23 minutes ago, cannuck said:

1. Partisan BS all put aside:  If getting government completely out of the sick care process worked, then the US would have costs similar to ours instead of double and their results would be better, not the dismally worse that they are.

2. Trying to treat medicine (a social service) as a business simply doesn't work all that well - except for the minority that can afford good sick care.   I think you will find the COVID experience in the US was little different for other patients from what it was here.   AND, they had and continue to have far higher mortality results.   

3. Really sad that people on waiting lists died or deteriorated into untreatable status, but you could say the same thing about putting them in the place of someone who would have died without the ability of the available facilities to treat their Wuhan Virus.

1. This is obvious to many of us.
2. One of the side effects I found weird about capitalistic healthcare was the government having to bail out hospitals who were losing money because they couldn't do plastic surgery.
3. Risk assessment is something that the general 'public' is very bad at.  If it were up to them, we wouldn't wear seat belts because of the risk they would trap you in a burning car...

[dialamah]

14 hours ago, Shady said:

True.  But even at the time, many were saying that suspending cancer screenings etc was a very bad idea.

It's heartbreaking that so many people have been so seriously affected by this pandemic, whether directly or indirectly.  IMO, the response of our health system is understandable given our overall lack of preparedness for any kind of crisis.  But the triage approach that has been employed is pretty standard in crisis situations.

A real life story of triage.  My partner was in emerg because he'd fallen, was in extreme pain and could not walk; a doctor examined him, said he'd order an x-ray and get him painkillers.  We waited, but no painkillers were forthcoming.  Eventually I found a nurse and asked when the painkillers would come.  He looked at me and said "That man over there is dying, we'll get to you as soon as we can."  My partner eventually needed surgery and was in hospital several days.

That was just one dying patient putting everyone other patient in the department on hold. 

Now imagine a dozen dying patients, every day, all day, for months on end.  Imagine that every available, remotely qualified person in the hospital being called in to help.  Imagine people who've been retired being called in to help.  Imagine students, not yet graduated, but having enough knowledge to provide support, being called in.  Who's left to do the regular, non-urgent care?  Not many. 

I'm sure nobody wanted to suspend cancer screenings or less-urgent-than-actively-dying surgeries.  But in the moment, triage is what happens.

People who died because Covid triage delayed their medical care are tragic, just as tragic as people who die from Covid.  Nobody wins here.  This is why there is so much anger towards anti-vaxers: they are still the heaviest Covid users of our ICUs, requiring even more triage than we've already endured.  

 

 

 

 

[myata]

19 minutes ago, myata said:

Otherwise, it'll end up more or less the same

As confirmed by the numbers. Most populous provinces in Canada, Ontario and Quebec, Covid toll approximately 1:1000 per capita. USA, 2.4:1000. Then consider population density: New York state: 420/sq.km, California: 260 Florida: 405 vs. Ontario: 14, Quebec: 5.8. That is population density 20-80 times higher. I tried to find the data for GTA (population density 900 so about a double of US states) and good luck with that, going on the third year of the crisis.

The statistics, and the attention of the society just so or deliberately is focused on two factors: case numbers, and vaccinations. The first one is out of control, the second is a mechanical activity but the result, the actual outcome indicating the effectiveness and efficiency of the system in consuming public funds isn't easy to find at all.

[Michael Hardner]

37 minutes ago, myata said:

As confirmed by the numbers. Most populous provinces in Canada, Ontario and Quebec, Covid toll approximately 1:1000 per capita. USA, 2.4:1000. Then consider population density: New York state: 420/sq.km, California: 260 Florida: 405 vs. Ontario: 14, Quebec: 5.8. That is population density 20-80 times higher. I tried to find the data for GTA (population density 900 so about a double of US states) and good luck with that, going on the third year of the crisis.

The statistics, and the attention of the society just so or deliberately is focused on two factors: case numbers, and vaccinations. The first one is out of control, the second is a mechanical activity but the result, the actual outcome indicating the effectiveness and efficiency of the system in consuming public funds isn't easy to find at all.

Population density vs. # cases is an interesting stat, and maybe you can do it on your own but it's hard to get causitive with that.  Is Toronto more impacted than, say, rural texas ?  

I live near millions of people for sure, but I don't interact with MORE people than I would in the small town I'm from: my family, friends, and the grocery store clerk.  I expect many people at a Raptors game are from out of town.

Interesting tho.

[Yzermandius19]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

3. Risk assessment is something that the general 'public' is very bad at.  If it were up to them, we wouldn't wear seat belts because of the risk they would trap you in a burning car...

as if public health or the politicians are any better

better that some are allowed to make the right call

rather than everyone being forced to make the wrong one

fuck centrally planned risk assessments and the horse they rode in on

they do more damage than they help, a large chunk of the time

especially in regards to covid

Edited December 14, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[myata]

36 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Is Toronto more impacted than, say, rural texas ?

Certainly more than rural Ontario, we had to shut the entire province down more than once because of Toronto's numbers

[Michael Hardner]

17 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

1. as if public health or the politicians are any better

2. better that some are allowed to make the right call rather than everyone being forced to make the wrong one fuck centrally planned risk assessments and the horse they rode in on they do more damage than they help, a large chunk of the time especially in regards to covid

1. Than a Balkanized approach ?  Well nobody with a health dept is doing that
2. Who are you talking about specifically ?  The countries at the top of the deaths/1M list have weak public health, generally, but you can't even correlate such things because some countries, like Sudan, have been enclaves.

[Yzermandius19]

16 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Than a Balkanized approach ?  Well nobody with a health dept is doing that
2. Who are you talking about specifically ?  The countries at the top of the deaths/1M list have weak public health, generally, but you can't even correlate such things because some countries, like Sudan, have been enclaves.

the places with the least heavy handed approaches are having the best results

and the places with the most heavy handed approaches are having the worst results

also the places with the most heavy handed approaches do far more collateral damage than the places with the least heavy handed approaches

 

the data shows that

the little, if any help that draconian lockdowns and mandates do

is vastly outweighed by the damage done by them

 

but the politicians, public health officials and general public don't give a shit about the science

especially those invoking it the most and the loudest

that's just a bullshit justification that total rubes buy into

it's all about instilling a false sense of security in general public being used to gain approval for more of the politicians and public health officials central planning schemes

compliance over science

the feigned altruism is simply a facade to assist the endemic corruption achieve their blatant power grabs

Edited December 14, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Michael Hardner]

29 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

1. the places with the least heavy handed approaches are having the best results, and the places with the most heavy handed approaches are having the worst results

2. the data shows that the little, if any help that draconian lockdowns and mandates do is vastly outweighed by the damage done by them

3. but the politicians, public health officials and general public don't give a shit about the science

4. that's just a bullshit justification that total rubes buy into

5. it's all about instilling a false sense of security in general public being used to gain approval for more of the politicians and public health officials central planning schemes, compliance over science

6. the feigned altruism is simply a facade to assist the endemic corruption achieve their blatant power grabs

1. Even if you could produce data to support your claim, the methodology trap I explained above still applies.
2. Cite please.
3. Your assessment of this science has now drifted into character assessment.  You don't know if people care or not, but somehow that's important to your argument.
4. ...and insulting people who believe the methodology
5. Your post is ideological boosterism, not science.  And the weird thing is that is what you are criticizing.
6. So strange that your whole argument depends on character assassination, and being able to read peoples' minds.

Once in awhile I review a post like this, but it's a waste of time because you won't listen to good sense on how to approach the situation.  Your whole ideological mindset precludes entering into a rational discussion on this.  Evidence is that you have to make it about evil liars trying to use the system to kill people...