US, UK, Australia in security pact against China. Canada left out

[Michael Hardner]

53 minutes ago, Argus said:

Where have you been for the last few years? 

Yes I read about the trade war, that is a good example supporting your point.

 

And anyway I came here to post this before you beat me to the punch.

 

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/17/justin-trudeau-criticism-aukus-canada-federal-election

[PIK]

Sad when Canada can no longer be trusted by our allies. He has ruined this country for good.

[Argus]

Just now, PIK said:

Sad when Canada can no longer be trusted by our allies. He has ruined this country for good.

Forty year old warships, and damned few of those. Forty year old fighter planes we don't even know when or if we'll be replacing, and three understrength, under-equipped regiments of infantry. What good are we as allies?

[PIK]

55 minutes ago, Argus said:

Forty year old warships, and damned few of those. Forty year old fighter planes we don't even know when or if we'll be replacing, and three understrength, under-equipped regiments of infantry. What good are we as allies?

I am sure after trudeau gets back in, the chinese will sell us some stuff. Lol

[PIK]

Unfortunately the majority of canadians have no idea what goes outside their daily lives. So sad, we once had a great strong and proud nation.

[cannuck]

On 9/16/2021 at 12:06 PM, QuebecOverCanada said:

The real loser here is France, they are losing $80B.

The real winner is actually China. They 'protest' against these military spendings, but in reality is very happy with how the Western World is spending. They are doing a reverse Reagan to the USSR. This time the Western coalition are the USSR that will not be able to keep up with military upkeep in the long run.

Sadly, I have to agree.  Since we in the West have simply given all of our productive jobs and businesses to China, we have noting left except a bunch of financiers speculating over M&As of the bones left over from our former functional selves.  China, OTH, has a highly efficient and newly retooled industry that can crank out arms and munitions just as they do a WalMart full of useless shit.

[Michael Hardner]

11 minutes ago, cannuck said:

1.  Since we in the West have simply given all of our productive jobs and businesses to China, we have noting left except a bunch of financiers speculating over M&As of the bones left over from our former functional selves. 

2. China, OTH, has a highly efficient and newly retooled industry that can crank out arms and munitions just as they do a WalMart full of useless shit.

1.   Not disagreeing - just to point out that there are lots of other things doing well in the west, like Pharma, Software, and - yes - manufacturing companies who offshore a lot of the work like Apple.  The difficulty with China and the changing attitude is captured in Harper's comments.  The Harper Government signed the FIPA accord.

2. And sophisticated technology in between those examples: iPhones, computer chips, social media software, telecommunications equipment.

[Queenmandy85]

1. Given that Prime Minister Ardern is clearly the best and brightest Government leader currently in power, if this deal doesn't interest her, why should it interest Canada. During the SNC affair, I begged my New Zealand friends to switch Prime Ministers but they wouldn't bite.

2. There are no friendly allies, only allies. 

3. The United States has not been a reliable ally for several years. Since 2016, they have reneged on several vital treaties and in particular, has been increasingly hostile towards Canada. Ms. Meng Wanzhou is being detained at the US request because she is alleged to have violated American sanctions against Iran...not Chinese sanctions, not Canadian sanctions, but American sanctions. Her dealings had nothing to do with the US. So three Canadians have to pay for US Government arrogance.

4. There is no war with China. If there ever is, it will be a nuclear war and there are no survivors in a nuclear war.

5. We are so fortunate that the US is our neighbour because while they have invaded us three times, they have not threatened us in recent years, because they are the only country that logistically could invade.

[QuebecOverCanada]

5 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

1. Given that Prime Minister Ardern is clearly the best and brightest Government leader currently in power, if this deal doesn't interest her, why should it interest Canada. During the SNC affair, I begged my New Zealand friends to switch Prime Ministers but they wouldn't bite.

2. There are no friendly allies, only allies. 

3. The United States has not been a reliable ally for several years. Since 2016, they have reneged on several vital treaties and in particular, has been increasingly hostile towards Canada. Ms. Meng Wanzhou is being detained at the US request because she is alleged to have violated American sanctions against Iran...not Chinese sanctions, not Canadian sanctions, but American sanctions. Her dealings had nothing to do with the US. So three Canadians have to pay for US Government arrogance.

4. There is no war with China. If there ever is, it will be a nuclear war and there are no survivors in a nuclear war.

5. We are so fortunate that the US is our neighbour because while they have invaded us three times, they have not threatened us in recent years, because they are the only country that logistically could invade.

1. Is that some kind of a sick joke?

2. No. Allies do not exist in geopolitics. We only have interested relationships between States.

3. The US isn't an ally. It is a trading partner and a competitor at the same time. We cooperate with them on many fronts, but they are not our friends. They are our neighbors.

4. There is no war but competition with every State on the planet. China is a harsh competitor, so are we. So are the US.

5. We have been invaded culturally, we imported the sick woke ideology that they are willing to export, we become more and more Americanized by the second. They just don't need to militarily invade us. We already are their pawn.

Edited September 18, 2021 by QuebecOverCanada

[WestCanMan]

19 hours ago, Argus said:

Forty year old warships, and damned few of those. Forty year old fighter planes we don't even know when or if we'll be replacing, and three understrength, under-equipped regiments of infantry.

We have 12 forty yr-old warships, all frigates, IIRC China built over 70 warships in the last 5 years, including aircraft carriers and guided-missile cruisers (officially named 'Destroyers', but more akin to 'cruisers').

Quote

What good are we as allies?

We're good at giving the Chinese access to biological weapons, and we're letting them set up their Huawei spy network here, so we're definitely someone's 'good ally'. 

[-TSS-]

Canada just isn't  an important enough country. Only slightly more important than a country like Finland.

[myata]

21 hours ago, PIK said:

He has ruined this country for good.

I would disagree with the "He" part. We did it, with our laziness and complacency. No country can run on autopilot for two centuries and still make sense.

[myata]

Would "Covid rapid response fund" (has anybody seen any trace of it in any time after it was given away?) plus pandemic election budget buy us a nuclear submarine to protect the Northern passage? Or should the United Nations take care of the matter for us?

Edited September 18, 2021 by myata

[OftenWrong]

Under PM Trudeau, Canada is beholden to China. You think the US and UK will share sensitive information with Canada now, moving forward? For one we haven't jumped off the Huawei bandwagon. Still dithering on that one. This security pact is against China, and Canada.

[Zeitgeist]

Canada can scale up fast militarily if the will and commitment are there.  The skeleton force exists, less a Marines and Airborne.  Our JTF2 still runs with the big guns.  It’s important to recognize though that when Canada had almost superpower level capabilities at the end of WW2, we essentially relinquished it all.  When we briefly had the fastest fighter engine, the US basically asked us to shut it down.  Trudeau Sr. turned down having nuclear missile launchers in Canadian soil.  When we are committed and focused, we can move fast and effectively.  The problem with focusing all our resources on creating a “just society” where everyone gets a trophy for breathing, the social safety is miles thick, and everyone is a victim in need of compensation for some perceived injustice, is that it leaves no room for much else, like self-defence and protection from manipulation by foreign powers.

It’s insane that our own government is keeping Canadians in the dark about what information was shared with the Wuhan lab, yet it put Chinese government-supported virologists on the payroll and shared biohazard research with them.  What the hell was that about?

Trudeau throws billions of tax dollars at trying to fix problems that Canadians living today didn’t cause.  The Indian Act was never the government’s business to fix. That’s up to the natives to change and no one is stopping them, yet the cause has sucked all the oxygen away from other causes.  We shoot ourselves in the feet on our greatest asset, our natural resources, by burying resource development in regulation and consultation, making it harder to stimulate the very Indigenous communities we want to help.

We have to get our priorities straight.  Australia realizes the threat of China.  It has become a beach-head of western freedom in that part of the world much as Israel is a beach-head in the Middle East.  Canada relies too heavily on her neighbour the US for security.  Britain has always maintained her independence from mainland Europe.  If we want to be taken seriously as an independent country, we must be more self-sufficient and diversify our trade away from the US.  We tend to do what’s convenient and cheap.  It often seems to make sense to do this, but it’s dangerously complaisant.  

Edited September 19, 2021 by Zeitgeist

[myata]

17 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

When we are committed and focused, we can move fast and effectively.

When was it last time, and how can we be sure that still can? If one gave up exercising for a decade, was lavish on beer and snacks and extra weight, can they still do pushups even if think that can?

[Zeitgeist]

We still have the best public education system in the English speaking world, have a highly skilled workforce, are close to the top in a number of fields and sectors, and rate close to the top in the Human Development Index. We are seen as a welcoming, diverse, and rational force for good relative to other countries.  People want to be here.  We need to stop beating ourselves up over old solutions that don’t make sense to us today but made sense in the past.

We need leaders who can articulate the gaps in our economy and society and bring forward the best tools to fill them. Ultimately we have to stop trying to get stuff and become more productive builders.  Our history has many strong examples.  

Edited September 19, 2021 by Zeitgeist

[blackbird]

On 9/16/2021 at 7:57 AM, Argus said:

That pact was for countries in the north Atlantic to deter Russian aggression. This pact is for the primary Anglosphere countries to deter Chinese aggression. Clearly Canada has no interest in deterring Chinese aggression. It prefers to grovel and feels of it does this long enough perhaps it will get a pat on the head and be rewarded with a nice bone.

Plus China is working, using its influence to keep Trudeau in power. It likes having a weakling in charge here. Most Chinese language media in Canada are controlled by China and they're all working to get Trudeau elected.

I have downloaded a Kindle book from Amazon called "HIDDEN HAND:  Exposing How the Chinese Communist Party is Reshaping the World".  I will start reading it as soon as I finish the book I am on now.  But I read another book called "Claws of the Panda" which is similar in nature but more focused on what China has been doing in Canada.  Canada has been selling out to China for decades.  I believe Liberal politicians are strongly under the influence of China now.  That would explain why Canada is the only country in the Five Eyes which has not stopped Huawei from being involved in the telecommunications network in Canada.  Also some very wealthy Chinese have made large contributions to the Pierre Elliot Trudeau Foundation.  In 2002 the Liberal government under PM Chretien donated 125 million dollars of taxpayer money to this organization.  That should be investigated in a national public enquiry. The media says very little or nothing about this organization and what it does and what it's links are to the Liberal Party.

This link shows 10 prominent media figures involved with the Trudeau Foundation.  One of them is Chantal Hebert who is a key political commentator on CBC politics broadcasts.  I think I have seen Susan Delacourt on CTV politics programs as well.

Edited September 19, 2021 by blackbird

[Argus]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada can scale up fast militarily if the will and commitment are there.  ant.  

If the shortage of microchips has demonstrated anything it's that you can't build anything today rapidly. Scaling up militarily would need a plethora of parts, each of which is extremely complex and needs special software and a lot of other parts, like computer chips. Then you'd need a skilled work force and the tools to put it all together.

It's taken us a year just to get industry to make face masks and gloves for Gods sakes. You think we could build the boots, uniforms, rifles, ammunition, trucks, tanks, armored personnel carriers, missiles, aircraft, ships etc. quickly???

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

We still have the best public education system in the English speaking world, have a highly skilled workforce, are close to the top in a number of fields and sectors, and rate close to the top in the Human Development Index. We are seen as a welcoming, diverse, and rational force for good relative to other countries.  People want to be here.  We need to stop beating ourselves up over old solutions that don’t make sense to us today but made sense in the past.

We need leaders who can articulate the gaps in our economy and society and bring forward the best tools to fill them. Ultimately we have to stop trying to get stuff and become more productive builders.  Our history has many strong examples.  

The education system is taken over by liberals and left wing progressive provincial governments who are using it to indoctrinate the school kids with their ideology.

Edited September 19, 2021 by blackbird

[blackbird]

I wonder whether the federal Liberal party looks upon China as a kind of benign friend of Canada.  Kind of a close business partner.  This view must have been somewhat shattered by the arrest of the two Michaels.  If I am not mistaken China is Canada's second largest trading partner.  This is hard to believe since China is a totalitarian Communist country with a completely different outlook on life, human rights, and values from western democracies.  I believe when Trudeau travelled to China to negotiate a trade deal about five years ago he actually thought China would be on the same wavelength as Canada.  This demonstrates complete naivety and is shocking considering he is the PM of Canada.

Edited September 19, 2021 by blackbird

[blackbird]

13 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

1. Given that Prime Minister Ardern is clearly the best and brightest Government leader currently in power, if this deal doesn't interest her, why should it interest Canada. During the SNC affair, I begged my New Zealand friends to switch Prime Ministers but they wouldn't bite.

2. There are no friendly allies, only allies. 

3. The United States has not been a reliable ally for several years. Since 2016, they have reneged on several vital treaties and in particular, has been increasingly hostile towards Canada. Ms. Meng Wanzhou is being detained at the US request because she is alleged to have violated American sanctions against Iran...not Chinese sanctions, not Canadian sanctions, but American sanctions. Her dealings had nothing to do with the US. So three Canadians have to pay for US Government arrogance.

4. There is no war with China. If there ever is, it will be a nuclear war and there are no survivors in a nuclear war.

5. We are so fortunate that the US is our neighbour because while they have invaded us three times, they have not threatened us in recent years, because they are the only country that logistically could invade.

Ardern opposes nuclear submarines if I am correct.  Is she some kind of pacifist?  Not a rational position to take in this polarized world where the west is under serious threat from Russia, China, Iran, and N. Korea.

[Zeitgeist]

59 minutes ago, Argus said:

If the shortage of microchips has demonstrated anything it's that you can't build anything today rapidly. Scaling up militarily would need a plethora of parts, each of which is extremely complex and needs special software and a lot of other parts, like computer chips. Then you'd need a skilled work force and the tools to put it all together.

It's taken us a year just to get industry to make face masks and gloves for Gods sakes. You think we could build the boots, uniforms, rifles, ammunition, trucks, tanks, armored personnel carriers, missiles, aircraft, ships etc. quickly???

Well that’s true on the whole.  Look how long it’s taking to get a vaccination facility up and running.  I’d just say that there are shortcuts we could take.  We have a pretty good shipbuilding capability.  Our communications tech are strong.  We can do much with drones.  There have been procurements for heavy lift and ships. It’s the infantry recruitment and fighter aircraft procurement we need to work on.  Trudeau wasn’t all wrong when he said that the security deal with Australia was about nuclear-propelled subs and bypassing France.  It actually reinforces the Canadian nationalist argument to build as much as we can ourselves, so we’re not beholden to other countries for long-term service contracts and outrageously expensive parts.  Canada doing its own thing in certain areas isn’t a bad thing, as long as it serves our interests.  The truth is that Canada is growing fast and has a bigger economy than Australia.  It’s upsetting that we haven’t caught up to that stature militarily.  Our economy is eclipsing Italy, a much more populous country.  We can afford to act more independently as our economy of scale approaches that of the UK.

Edited September 19, 2021 by Zeitgeist

[Zeitgeist]

56 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The education system is taken over by liberals and left wing progressive provincial governments who are using it to indoctrinate the school kids with their ideology.

I agree that’s a problem, but that’s true throughout the West.  Not even a Conservative provincial government has dialed that back.  Maybe a federal one will help.

[Zeitgeist]

46 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I wonder whether the federal Liberal party looks upon China as a kind of benign friend of Canada.  Kind of a close business partner.  This view must have been somewhat shattered by the arrest of the two Michaels.  If I am not mistaken China is Canada's second largest trading partner.  This is hard to believe since China is a totalitarian Communist country with a completely different outlook on life, human rights, and values from western democracies.  I believe when Trudeau travelled to China to negotiate a trade deal about five years ago he actually thought China would be on the same wavelength as Canada.  This demonstrates complete naivety and is shocking considering he is the PM of Canada.

We import tremendously from China.  It’s misleading to say they’re are second largest trading partner because the money and labour flow mostly to China.

I actually think we need to radically reverse this   Slam the door on all of it   Close the embassy, give up the billions in soy and other crops that we sell to China, and slap tariffs on Chinese goods unless they meet comparable standards to ours.  It’s better to take a hit on our exports and repatriate jobs and money.  It’s also better to kick out all the Chinese government influencers.  There’s value in an international trade deal that requires that certain labour and environmental standards are met to have free trade.  

 

Edited September 19, 2021 by Zeitgeist