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22 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

I'll just keep posting factual information, thanks! I dont need your approval or acknowledgement. This is a discussion on a specific topic, not me. Dont like that link? Oh well. How about the Henry Ford clinic, which I opened this part of the discussion with?

Or how about the Japanese guy. They sound legit to me,

I'll look forward to factual information from you, and as is the responsibility of anyone who cares about fighting fake news and misinformation, I'll investigate as I see fit, and challenge posts that reference use stupid and incredible sources.  You don't like that?  Oh well.  I don't need your approval or acknowledgement.  

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I didn't look into what they do or say on their private time.

The woman you suggested had credible info on Covid treatment uses prayer in her medical practice, and believes that people can be made sick by demons.  That's not her "private time"; that's how she does her job.

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1 hour ago, dialamah said:

I'll look forward to factual information from you, and as is the responsibility of anyone who cares about fighting fake news and misinformation, I'll investigate as I see fit, and challenge posts that reference use stupid and incredible sources.  You don't like that?  Oh well.  I don't need your approval or acknowledgement.  

The woman you suggested had credible info on Covid treatment uses prayer in her medical practice, and believes that people can be made sick by demons.  That's not her "private time"; that's how she does her job.

As previously indicated, this thread isn't about prayers or demons. So no comment about the Henry Ford Clinic and Japanese researchers, or the other 15 people giving speeches, all providing the same informaton about covid-19?

Oh well.

crickets.jpg.e758785bfab96164dbfba2d6df74f10f.jpg

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1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

So no comment about the Henry Ford Clinic and Japanese researchers,

1.  I don't read everything on this site; do you?   

2.  If you post some studies and they seem to be from a credible source, with credible information, why would I challenge them?

3.  And anyway, I did respond to those - my post yesterday, 1:33 p.m.:

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2.  I looked at those, as well.  The study finding that there was some percentage less deaths when treated with hydroxichloriquine said, in their study, that more research was needed.  They also excluded people over 65 from their study - that in itself would allow for better outcomes.  So, maybe this drug deserves more study, but so far there is isn't nearly enough proof that this is a cure.

 

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More info on the hydroxichloriquine study withdrawn by Lancet.  One of the study's authors owned and was using a dataset that wasn't accurate, maybe even didn't exist.  The other two authors weren't given access to the data, even after questions were raised and they asked to see it.  The study claimed H was actively harmful, so other studies were stopped.  WHO resumed studies on H after the paper was withdrawn.

As a result of this, Lancet has changed several of its editorial policies.  Among other changes, Lancet will require that all study authors verify the data that's used, and all authors confirm in writing they had access to the data.  

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5 minutes ago, dialamah said:

As a result of this, Lancet has changed several of its editorial policies.   

While I think the academic world is learning how to conduct itself with respect to our new and more inclusive 'public', I also think it's important for us to recognize when science is being politicized and for us to tell all politicians to back off and let research continue.

 

We saw the same thing happen with climate change, and it was detrimental to the dialogue.

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The fact is these studies and tons of related information is being immediately seized upon by the media. There is no vetting process as is typically demanded by peer review, other supporting data. the process from data collection, analysis, conclusion takes years, not weeks. For safety- what we see today is exactly the reason why.

It requires more responsibility for you, the media reader, to put in context. But of course for these scientific things, many of us have no background in it so we are vulnerable to believing misinformation.

Add a little politics in the stew... and you got today.

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51 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

While I think the academic world is learning how to conduct itself with respect to our new and more inclusive 'public', I also think it's important for us to recognize when science is being politicized and for us to tell all politicians to back off and let research continue.

 

We saw the same thing happen with climate change, and it was detrimental to the dialogue.

Agree; it would also be a benefit if "we the public" better understood that the scientific method requires patience, with changes in conclusions as research bring about better understanding.  The notion that a change in understanding followed by a change in recommendations means somebody lied, people are incompetent or there's some kind of conspiracy is a problem with too many people, imo.  Progress is not a straight line from A to B, but is a meandering path, with false trails and backtracking to the last fork. 

It will be years before we know and truly understand the complete effect of this pandemic.  How many people who contract the virus actually get sick or die?  How many illnesses result in "long-haulers", how long will they be sick, and does Covid affect a person's lifespan, even if they recover within a few weeks?  Too many people, often supported by politicians, throw out common sense, demanding simple and immutable answers now!  

Edited by dialamah
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On 9/20/2020 at 2:42 PM, Infidel Dog said:

The Doctor being attacked for her religious beliefs here got her medical degree in Nigeria. She practiced there and was accustomed to prescribing Hydroxychloroquine for malaria. She practices in America now. Her claim is as follows:

https://heavy.com/news/2020/07/dr-stella-immanuel/

Thanks for this clarification. That is what I suspected as well, when I heard those racist attacks upon her from Dialamma. I figured she might be from Haiti, or somewhere else, Africa, where people believe some very different things. In her country this could be normal.

The fact she might believe in demons or voddoo should not be held against her medical knowledge, as many Afrikaans believe similar.

But I digress. Enough with the hateful accusations from the left.

The point of raising this latest round was to show there is even politicization of coronavirus research.

Because Trump...

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On 9/22/2020 at 10:23 AM, dialamah said:

Progress is not a straight line from A to B, but is a meandering path, with false trails and backtracking to the last fork. 

Sure, that's fine. We all make mistakes. "That's why pencils have erasers..."

even in health care...


Wrong. It's called controls, doh!  :wacko:
 

Edited by OftenWrong
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CDC has updated its data for survival rate, called "Infection fatality ratio".

Quote

Scenario 5: Current Best Estimate
20-49 years: 0.0002
50-69 years: 0.005
70+ years: 0.054

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html

Which can also be interpreted as, if you get the coronavirus your chances of survival are:
20-49 years: 0.02% = 99.98%
50-69 years: 0.5% = 99.5%
70+ years: 5.4% = 94.6%

CDC says Covid-19 death rate is under 1% for everyone but people over 70

 

We can now see that there is clearly a better way to protect our society from the virus than the approach taken starting in spring of 2020.

 

It is also apparent that countries which had looser restrictions in virus shutdown have had a more moderate resurgence of the virus since things were opened in July. Those countries that went into Nazi state control mode are now seeing a big swing upward.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/germany/
versus
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

 

Meanwhile in UK the infection numbers are going sky high, but fortunately the number of deaths per day remain low.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

 

 

And today we hear that in Florida, the state governor has announced all covid-19 restrictions to be stopped.

Florida governor reopening state's economy despite COVID-19 spread

Few US children are dying from Covid-19


 

 

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I can go back to April where I said this approach is entirely misguided, the issue is to protect the elderly. There is no need to quarantine society.

Even if it were not in that age group, this would still be true, but for other reasons.

So that's why I told you people, all you who condemned me, who called me stupid and accused me of being a Nazi. I DONT NEED TO ARGUE WITH YOU. I can just sit back and wait for the truth to come out, and watch you people come around.

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I would like to see the whole world move sick care the hell out of politics, but since the media is so desperate for stories, they turn it into a stump for politicians, thus political flavouring of all response, policy, etc.  Being a member of the 70+ club, what Canada does, but far more to the point what SK does has a direct effect upon me.  Living in a place with a clear majority has freed up the SK government to just do what it sees makes sense, and as a result our numbers here are fairly impressive (as in impressively good).  Worldwide, the Wuhan Virus is on track to have about the same level of fatalities as driving a car.  I am by not likely to stop driving because of that (an activity that also has a risk factor directly related to age as it happens) but by the same token,  I am not about to start driving drunk at high speed without a seatbelt either.

While the national politics is of course important for us all to see and understand, it is the geo-political undertones that really make for some interesting observations and speculation.  While we can politically "blame" China for this (and other) corona virus development - both "natural" and implied "man-made" - the political difference in how countries are organized and managed - just as we are seeing interprovincially on a smaller scale in Canada - clearly make for very different outcomes from the same pandemic.

I bring this up because China has a vaccine that it is prepared to sell internationally.  The politics and culture of China allow for heavy-handed, fast tracked management of the population, but also the economy and as it happens research and development.  As a result, no surprise they are first past the post with a vaccine (not sure when this will be announced so I can't link to anything yet - but it is a done deal).  Our "Trumpified" attitude about China (which I happen to endorse) will possibly put our government in the position of having to choose between a "made-in-Canada" or "trusted ally" developed and tested vaccine and one now (or very soon) available from the elephant our neighbours put in the corner of the room.  Will the Little Tur...uh...er...TRUdeau be able to trade immediate response for Canadian lives to wiggle around in the corner Trump has put him in?   Will we have to send Ms. Meng home to be able to GET such a vaccine?

I will open my bag of popcorn twists (made in Canada...MB to be exact) and watch from our relatively safe (have one kid teaching and our grandchildren are hear every day - so a "high risk" status but with our provincial record of testing, contact tracing and general good behaviour, something I am comfortable to do) and watch this next issue unfold.

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On 9/2/2020 at 9:08 AM, OftenWrong said:

New report shows that the covid-19 medical services shutdown has created a backlog in surgeries of 84 weeks. You do the math.

Study says Ontario surgery backlog due to COVID-19 could take 84 weeks to clear


How many do you people suppose shall die, or even have a more miserable life as a consequence? Who says we should take wealth and years of life from the young, and give it to the old? Who is the arbiter of life and death among you.

The cure was worse than the disease.  The shutdown should have only been a couple of weeks long, to determine what we were dealing with.  After that, it should have been mitigation and distancing with high risk people quarantining.  This protracted shutdown which ultimately didn't solve anything, because we're seeing cases explode again, caused needless jobs loss, business loss, divorce, increase in domestic violence, increase in drug and alcohol abuse, and increases in suicides.  Enough is enough.

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20 hours ago, Cannucklehead said:

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"Finally, China must pay a steep price for its lies and foot-dragging as COVID-19 roared out of Wuhan and unleashed a deadly plague upon the world."

 

I guess all the people claiming Covid is a hoax will be turned into crickets. :)

Who was claiming it was a hoax?

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The other day someone came up and asked me, "Sam, why is it that a lot of people are getting the coronavirus, when it really looks like everyone's doing their best?"

Well now, Jebediah, here's what I learned. In them big cities, people live in buildings where they all share the same air, from one to another, to another. And agin. Now the way I see it, this is an airborne virus. You really want to be at the top end of that air stream. Just Sayin. Or else you might be sniffin a lot more, than other people's farts.

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Canada has, for some reason, started "padding" the numbers of people dying per day, with old numbers from April and May. The result is that the number of death counts per day are being artificially inflated. This comes at a most inopportune moment for policy planners, as we reopen and go back to school and we see the infections shoot sky-high.

Daily deaths in Canada have been typically in the 10 - 15 deaths per day range. On Oct 1 the number started climbing. However upon closer examinatin, all the numbers being reported in the last 5 days are artificially inflated by a "data correction". It is rather strange timing, and also strange that the "data correction" is being slowly and incrementally applied over a period of days.

You can't find this out, unless you dig into the data sources and read the fine print.

Quote

Oct. 5 - The province added 615 new cases of COVID-19 as well as five new deaths.

Oct. 4 – The province announced 566 new cases, seven deaths and 534 recoveries. Some of these cases and deaths date back to the spring and summer, the province said.

Oct. 3 – The province announced 653 new cases, 41 deaths and 435 recoveries. Officials said 37 deaths occurred in the summer and spring, and are just being announced now because of a data correction.

Oct. 2 - The province added a record 732 COVID-19 cases -- the most new cases reported in a single day. The province also reported 76 deaths - 74 of them, however, are from the spring and summer that were not recorded until now due to a data correction.

Link

Data for October 5 also indicates there was another "correction", but this info was harder to find.
 

Quote

Canada reported 2,206 new cases of the novel coronavirus on Monday, marking the country’s highest single-day increase since the pandemic began.

The new cases bring Canada’s total case count to 168,784.

Provincial health authorities also said another 23 people have died after testing positive for COVID-19.

However, not all of the deaths occurred in the last 24 hours.

Link


====

So tell me there isn't a little game going on here. People are scared, people are making policy decisions based on data that is being manipulated. There is no other excuse, no reason to add totals from May into a day in October, other than to make the data more deceptive.

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2 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

You would think it's a good thing.

Maybe we can jail-them next...that'll teach them to come to Canada.

If they're gonna break the law, yeah - charge them, fine them, jail them.  

Partner had to go to the hospital Sunday.  Lady comes in behind him, sick, with her son.  Partner gets triaged, and can hear the nurse at the Front say to this woman "You are supposed to quarantine for two weeks, and if you had to come into the hospital, you are supposed to call ahead".  Partner overheard the nurses talking about it, and they were very upset.

So yeah, one stupid person who refuses to follow the rules, put my partner at risk, put everyone they were within several feet of at risk, put the medical staff at risk because they couldn't be bothered to just call ahead to say they were coming in so that the staff could take proper precautions to protect everyone else who was there.

So you take your "poor 'merican tourists" whining and shove it up the same excrement-filled hole your head inhabits.  They break the law, they get fined.  They can go back to the States, and stay there.

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16 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Sounds fun. Should we be jailing Moms and their kids together in the same cage, Barak?

We don't throw them in jail - we fine them and send them back home.   Just cause I'm all for jailing them if they can't follow the laws doesn't mean that's what we do, eh? 

I'm also getting to the point where people like you, OW and Taxme should be fined/jailed for your disinformation campaigning and undermining of public health guidelines.

You dumb Trump cultists should be considered at the same level as terrorists for your deliberate infliction of harm on the rest of us.  

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