The Coronavirus

[Infidel Dog]

 

32 minutes ago, Boges said:

Co-Morbidities contribute to all medical deaths. Why should they be disregarded when considering how dangerous COVID-19 is? 

Co-morbidities in the elderly in particular.

Ok, so now tell me why you guys want to shut down schools full of kids not worrying about old-age or "co-morbidities."

Why do you want to shut down churches but keep the liquor stores open?

Are you guys hoping to shut down Christmas? If so, why? I imagine you'll want shopping mall Santas to wear a mask. Why? The kid doesn't have to worry and the mask won't protect Santa. 

Why are BLM protests allowed but they want to shut down that one barbecue restaurant protest in Ontario. In fact didn't the guy who owned that restaurant and was keeping it open just get arrested? Come to think of it, I just had a big Mac the other day. How was that possible?

And hospitals are still open where I am. They seem to have the same amount of room as always. Where exactly are you seeing this lack of hospital beds crisis?

Edited November 30, 2020 by Infidel Dog

[Boges]

22 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

Co-morbidities in the elderly in particular.

Ok, so now tell me why you guys want to shut down schools full of kids not worrying about old-age or "co-morbidities."

Actually here in Ontario, despite shutdowns, schools have remained open. I think Schools are being quite militant about not allowing any child that's sick to be in the school. Note in the Ontario COVID-19 thread some posters are decrying this as a potential room for more outbreaks. 

But also note that Children usually don't live in Silos, they can come home and spread the disease to parents or grandparents. 

 

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Why do you want to shut down churches but keep the liquor stores open?

Churches are large indoor gatherings. Much like sporting events. 

Liqour Stores are much like any other form of commodity retail like Grocery Stores. People need to shop to continue the economy. Though in some places, even retails has been shut down or reduced. 

I think you can appreciate the social issue generated by banning alcohol sales as well. 

 

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Are you guys hoping to shut down Christmas? If so, why?

People really shouldn't be gathering indoors in large numbers. We can see that the biggest spikes in cases are coming from places where multi-generational homes. These gathering are difficult to enforce. Which is why numbers keep going up. Especially when winter weather drives people indoors more. 

 

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In fact didn't the guy who owned that restaurant and was keeping it open just get arrested? Come to think of it, I just had a big Mac the other day. How was that possible?

In Toronto indoor dining has been suspended for a month. You can get McDonalds using the Drive-Thru. I'm sure you're not obstinate enough not to realize that.

I'm sure BBQ Boy could have still remained opening by offering Take-Out and Delivery. Not saying that's ideal, but it's all a goal to reduce indoor public gatherings.

I had take-out this week at a restaurant that has directed all their resources into offering take-out and delivery. Dining elements are all closed, even though they're technically allowed to be open where I live. 

 

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And hospitals are still open where I am. They seem to have the same amount of room as always. Where exactly are you seeing this lack of hospital beds crisis?

That's highly anecdotal as I don't know where you live. 

Note this article documenting Hospital overcrowding across Canada due to COVID-19. 

https://globalnews.ca/news/7464926/coronavirus-canada-hospital-capacity/

Edited November 30, 2020 by Boges

[Boges]

Here's a good and extensive article outlining ways, doctors are discovering, COVID-19 can kill you. 

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/04/how-does-coronavirus-kill-clinicians-trace-ferocious-rampage-through-body-brain-toes

Edited November 30, 2020 by Boges

[Infidel Dog]

38 minutes ago, Boges said:

Cite instances where hospitalizations reach the saturation point they have, for the run-of-the-mill flu. Both in the US and in Canada. 

First of all you show me yours. Even in your hot spot of Ontario this is the worse I'm hearing:

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TORONTO -- Ontario now has 150 patients receiving treatment for COVID-19 in its intensive care units, marking the meeting of a key threshold that will make it more difficult for hospitals to provide other care and perform scheduled surgeries.

 

So it's not a worry that the sky is falling it's more a worry that the sky might fall.

Kind of like your worry kids might be hurrying home from school to infect Grandma. Any evidence of that happening in a way that should worry anybody? There are places schools have shut down. What are the stats against areas where they didn't? In the meantime kids get no social interaction and their learning is stilted.

You can social distance and mask in a church as easy as you can in a liquor store.

If you really are worried about the social problems of shutting down liquor stores why aren't you worried about all the suicides and family conflicts during the lockdowns?

Edited November 30, 2020 by Infidel Dog

[Infidel Dog]

One thing I'm noticing from the lockdowns.

Big corporations like Amazon are making out like, pardon me, as bandits.

Small business and working folk, not so much.

[Boges]

3 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

First of all you show me yours. Even in your hot spot of Ontario this is the worse I'm hearing:

Cancelling elective surgeries is one of the dire consequences of COVID. We look need no further than Italy and New York in the Spring to see how things can cascade out of control. 

Rationing of care is a real possibility and increases the death toll.

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You can social distance and mask in a church as easy as you can in a liquor store.

 

And you can just as easily have a virtual worship service. It's not essential. 

 

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If you really are worried about the social problems of shutting down liquor stores why aren't you worried about all the suicides and family conflicts during the lockdowns?

It's a big problem. I'm experiencing it myself.

Certainly letting COVID-19 run rampant isn't the solution. 

[Boges]

3 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

One thing I'm noticing from the lockdowns.

Big corporations like Amazon are making out like, pardon me, as bandits.

Small business and working folk, not so much.

Small businesses that still relying on foot traffic, most certainly. We were already down that road before COVID-19. 

The pandemic has just hastened the decline of Brick and Mortar retail. 

[Boges]

Just a reminder. Even the Right's COVID-19 Darling has moved to limit indoor public gatherings. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/16/sweden-limits-public-gatherings-to-eight-people-amid-covid-surge

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Sweden has cut its limit on attendance at public gatherings to eight people, as its light-touch approach to the coronavirus pandemic continues to be tested by a surge in new infections and hospitalisations.

Public gatherings have until now had to adhere to limits of between 50 and 300 people depending on the type of event. The prime minister, Stefan Löfven, said the stricter limit would come into force from 24 November.

“This is the new norm for the entire society,” Lofven said, adding that Swedes were not observing coronavirus recommendations as well they had in the spring. “Don’t go to gyms, don’t go to libraries, don’t host dinners. Cancel,” he said.

 

 

[Infidel Dog]

Any hospital crisis New York might have experienced during their peak was self made. Trump sent a hospital ship full of beds to New York city and the socialists running the city wouldn't allow people to use it. Cuomo had warehouses full of ventilators when he was whining about not having them. Nobody or nothing was responsible for him sending sick people to retirement homes except him.

It's ridiculous saying there would be more social problems shutting down liquor stores than there would be shutting down churches.

If Sweden is bowing to international pressure after a small second wave bump they're just taking the knee to their inner pussy.

Here's the graph to covid deaths in Sweden:

Feel free to compare that to mask mandate, lockdown countries like Spain and Italy. You'll be disappointed. You'll have no more luck finding a worry there than you will looking for the lump on your head from the falling sky.

[Infidel Dog]

1 hour ago, Boges said:

Small businesses that still relying on foot traffic, most certainly. We were already down that road before COVID-19. 

The pandemic has just hastened the decline of Brick and Mortar retail. 

Because the steady decline of small business is just something that happens and the meteoric rise of control of big corporate and big global is just one of those things, and the fact that Covid and the Warmageddon hoax is giving the middle class it's final push to non-existence is just a coincidence. Right? 

Nearly one-third of NY, NJ small businesses reportedly closed in 2020

Edited November 30, 2020 by Infidel Dog

[Boges]

1 hour ago, Infidel Dog said:

Any hospital crisis New York might have experienced during their peak was self made. Trump sent a hospital ship full of beds to New York city and the socialists running the city wouldn't allow people to use it. Cuomo had warehouses full of ventilators when he was whining about not having them. Nobody or nothing was responsible for him sending sick people to retirement homes except him.

It's ridiculous saying there would be more social problems shutting down liquor stores than there would be shutting down churches.

If Sweden is bowing to international pressure after a small second wave bump they're just taking the knee to their inner pussy.

Here's the graph to covid deaths in Sweden:

Feel free to compare that to mask mandate, lockdown countries like Spain and Italy. You'll be disappointed. You'll have no more luck finding a worry there than you will looking for the lump on your head from the falling sky.

You could also compare deaths in Sweden to a Mask Mandate country like Canada. 

[Infidel Dog]

Why? Do you guys have a mask mandate, full lockdown, out east?

I keep telling you guys, but it doesn't seem to compute. Ontario is not Canada. Believe it or not there are 9 other provinces and 3 territories.

Hell, way out west here we even had a 3 family thanksgiving and I'm hoping for something even bigger at Christmas.

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Infidel Dog

[Boges]

13 hours ago, Infidel Dog said:

Why? Do you guys have a mask mandate, full lockdown, out east?

I keep telling you guys, but it doesn't seem to compute. Ontario is not Canada. Believe it or not there are 9 other provinces and 3 territories.

Hell, way out west here we even had a 3 family thanksgiving and I'm hoping for something even bigger at Christmas.

That would explain Manitoba and Alberta's bad COVID-19 numbers of late. 

[OftenWrong]

When you have evidence that there's ten x the number of infectious cases out there, all you need to do to declare an outbreak is to ramp up testing. You will count more of those, and can then say "Oh my, OUTBREAK!"
 

Perhaps that is why Tam gave these instructions that specifically excludes getting tested.
 

 

[Boges]

27 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

When you have evidence that there's ten x the number of infectious cases out there, all you need to do to declare an outbreak is to ramp up testing. You will count more of those, and can then say "Oh my, OUTBREAK!"
 

Perhaps that is why Tam gave these instructions that specifically excludes getting tested.
 

 

Except Hospitalization and Positivity Rate are better indicators of the outbreak, not straight caseload. 

[OftenWrong]

2 minutes ago, Boges said:

Except Hospitalization and Positivity Rate are better indicators of the outbreak, not straight caseload. 

Yet they are not giving us that data. The instruction from the provincial health authority, for example, is “the ministry has asked health units to report through our provincial reporting systems: all deaths with COVID-19 whether or not it was the cause of death.”
Link

"Positivity rate" is directly related to what I am talking about.

[Boges]

7 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Yet they are not giving us that data. The instruction from the provincial health authority, for example, is “the ministry has asked health units to report through our provincial reporting systems: all deaths with COVID-19 whether or not it was the cause of death.”
Link

"Positivity rate" is directly related to what I am talking about.

So you want Co-morbidity data associated with the death toll. TBH I assume all the COVID-19 deaths involve some sort of co-morbidity.

But once you reach a saturation point in the Hospitals due to all these people with co-morbidities getting sick with COVID-19, you reach a tipping point where just accessing healthcare is fraught with peril. 

From your cite. 

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They need to know that old George had COPD (thanks to emphysema) after smoking his brains out for 40 years, developed pneumonia in the hospital, and died of … what? COVID-19?

Well, not exactly. Instead, he died of a bad life choice, initially thinking smoking was cool until he was hacking up his lungs but with his addiction still putting him in a desperate need for another cigarette.

 

You could say the same about someone who dies of Cancer or Heart Disease.  Poor life choices lead to a greater chance of death from a variety of causes. 

Which is why America's resistance to COVID mitigation measures is so puzzling. It's a country full of people with co-morbidities. And we see that with the death rate. 

There's a difference between dying of a heart attack from a life of poor eating choices and dying from a heart attack brought on by an infectious disease you caught from a younger person who didn't care if they got sick or not. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Boges

[OftenWrong]

23 minutes ago, Boges said:

There's a difference between dying of a heart attack from a life of poor eating choices and dying from a heart attack brought on by an infectious disease you caught from a younger person who didn't care if they got sick or not. 

Oh really? Who made you people the arbiters of death? Cause I've seen firsthand, and I know of many said young people who are trying to kill themselves, because just like physical co-morbidity they have mental co-morbidity issues. Try to convince them it's all worth it to save the smoker, from the chance they might transfer it to that person.

I mean wtf man, so just isolate that person. Yet we do not. We do not.

I also hear about the effect it has on the young disabled people when they cannot get the physical exercise and therapy they need just to be able to live.

Using these blunt instruments to determine our response to the outbreak is like trying to do surgery with a sledgehammer.

Because idiot meatheads "in charge" have no answer to these important social issues, and seek to keep them from public view. And then we got most of the people out there so scared of it, they will just follow these leaders.

[Boges]

6 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Oh really? Who made you people the arbiters of death? Cause I've seen firsthand, and I know of many said young people who are trying to kill themselves, because just like physical co-morbidity they have mental co-morbidity issues. Try to convince them it's all worth it to save the smoker, from the chance they might transfer it to that person.

I mean wtf man, so just isolate that person. Yet we do not. We do not.

I also hear about the effect it has on the young disabled people when they cannot get the physical exercise and therapy they need just to be able to live.

Using these blunt instruments to determine our response to the outbreak is like trying to do surgery with a sledgehammer.

Because idiot meatheads "in charge" have no answer to these important social issues, and seek to keep them from public view. And then we got most of the people out there so scared of it, they will just follow these leaders.

So now we're making choices on who's "affliction" is worse. 

But in the instance of COVID, that choice gets made for us when Hospitals get overrun and ALL Healthcare gets taxed. People can't receive elective life changing surgeries, they can't just go to the ER and expect to get treated in an efficient manor. 

What of the person that doesn't have COVID-19, but has a heart attack or a stroke, but because their local hospital is overrun so they have to go somewhere far from their home and die alone just like any COVID-19 patient because the system is taxed?

The closing of businesses, mask mandates and enforced social distancing are geared to stop that. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Boges

[OftenWrong]

45 minutes ago, Boges said:

What of the person that doesn't have COVID-19, but has a heart attack or a stroke, but because their local hospital is overrun so they have to go somewhere far from their home and die alone just like any COVID-19 patient because the system is taxed?

The closing of businesses, mask mandates and enforced social distancing are geared to stop that. 

That effect is already happening. We heard of the bcklog of 100's of thousands of serious medical procedures from the spring. That backlog probably has not cleared, and will continue to grow.

 

It's not a binary choice. We can do better for both, with the right plan.

The outbreaks continue to kill in LTC, otherwise we hear that your chances of surviving ar 99.5%.  Not enough action has been taken where needed, despite the amount of time passed, and the number of warnings and cries of help from these organizations. The government is plugging its ears. Their solution is half-assed, to say it nicely.

[Boges]

2 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

That effect is already happening. We heard of the bcklog of 100's of thousands of serious medical procedures from the spring. That backlog probably has not cleared, and will continue to grow.

It's not a binary choice. We can do better for both, with the right plan.

The outbreaks continue to kill in LTC, otherwise we hear that your chances of surviving ar 99.5%.  Not enough action has been taken where needed, despite the amount of time passed, and the number of warnings and cries of help from these organizations. The government is plugging its ears. Their solution is half-assed, to say it nicely.

People go to a LTC Home to die. It's sad but unavoidable if there's an outbreak. 

Most of the deaths we do see are from LTC. 

The issue is with Hospitalization though. You may survive, but if you need to be Hospitalized you contribute to the problem and increase the chance others may die. 

https://www.cp24.com/news/ontario-reports-1-707-new-covid-19-cases-positivity-climbs-above-5-per-cent-1.5211692

 

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Meanwhile, hospitalizations continue to surge, with admissions to intensive care beds approaching 200.

There are 645 people in hospital receiving treatment for COVID-19 symptoms across the province, up from 631 on Monday.

Of those, 185 are in intensive care and 112 of those are breathing with the help of a ventilator.

Dr. Michael Warner of Michael Garron Hospital in East York said the ICU bed numbers are even higher than what the province stated on Tuesday morning.

"Unfortunately we added 26 new patients with COVID to ICUs across the province, we’re up to 193."

Warner said that according to the Critical Care Services of Ontario daily census, close to 40 per cent of ICU beds in some Toronto hospitals are filled with COVID-19 patients.

 

 

[Cannucklehead]

So are the trumpers going to jump off the "fake news" bandwagon i wonder?  

 

[Infidel Dog]

I notice when the 'sky is falling' crowd wants to scare you with the horrors of covid they always offer up infection rate rather than the stat that would matter, which would be deaths.

Rebel Media just tipped 'we who dare to watch' to this supercool tool they have at statistics Canada. Get on it, you can play for hours.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/71-607-x/71-607-x2020017-eng.htm

What it is, is an interactive tool showing you how many deaths there were week by week, year by year, province by province by national stat.

It's fascinating. There was a recent year where peak deaths were close to this one. 

Recently, weekly deaths have plummeted below where they'd normally be.

The Province moving the stat most radically is Ontario.

Stuff like that. 

If you just want to watch Ezra play with the tool try this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRFjMD3-XNg

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by Infidel Dog

[Infidel Dog]

Oh and here's a theory why there were so many deaths in April and so comparatively few these recent weeks.

The elderly and otherwise immune challenged who would normally die more in the autumn and winter have already been weeded out by the Chi-Comm virus.

Edited December 2, 2020 by Infidel Dog

[Boges]

Today Ontario reported 35 deaths. That's tied for the most this fall, in the second wave. Again, not catastrophic, but up. 

In Ontario the measures are largely preventative. Because Hospitalization is going up, and deaths will follow should that not be controlled. 

https://www.cp24.com/news/ontario-records-another-1-723-cases-of-covid-19-35-more-deaths-1.5213549

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Dr. Michael Warner, the medical director of critical care at Michael Garron Hospital, told CP24 Tuesday that some GTA hospitals are starting to see a surge in COVID-19 patients in intensive care units (ICU).

In York and Halton regions, he said, close to 24 per cent of all patients in the ICU are infected with COVID-19 and at some Toronto hospitals, that number is closer to 40 per cent.

In Peel Region, hospitals are starting to care for patients in “non-traditional” spaces due to the influx of COVID-19 patients, that region’s chief medical officer of health told CP24 on Wednesday.

Experts have said ICU occupancy of more than 150 in Ontario challenges the health-care system’s ability to keep up with scheduled surgeries and other elective procedures.

On Wednesday, Ontario Health Minister Christine Elliott said while there are certain hospitals that are under “stress” right now, she denied the assertion from members of the opposition that Ontario hospitals are in a “crisis” situation.

“There is no question that many Ontario hospitals are under stress right now, particularly in the lockdown areas,” she said, noting that both Scarborough General Hospital and William Osler Health System have been forced to cancel some non-emergency surgeries and procedures.

“To say they are in crisis, is not the case. Alberta is in crisis when you have to have double cohorts in a single intensive care room. That’s a crisis. We are not at that stage in Ontario.”

 

Where it is in a crisis situation is many parts of the US. Nearing 100,000 people Hospitalized and yesterday the US recorded the most deaths from COVID since last April. 

It'll be interesting to see if there's any Threshold COVID-19 deniers will start to concede that the the US in entering a Humanitarian Crisis. 

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/potential-covid-19-surge-thanksgiving-humanitarian-crisis-experts/story?id=74365407