What to do about China

[Moonlight Graham]

59 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

There is no teaming up against China, as it now has the critical mass for economic growth from its increasing middle class, same as America in the 20th century.   It is no coincidence that China is following American examples for power and influence, but China has done this several times before in history, long before the British or Spanish.

China will not tolerate Canada's shrill virtue signaling and human rights agenda, because it doesn't have to.

The US and Canada have already teamed up re: the Meng Wanzhou.  China is allied with Russia, there's no reason not to make alliances and it would be foolish for like-minded countries to go it alone.  ie: Trump would have more leverage vs China if the EU was on board too.

[bush_cheney2004]

14 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

The US and Canada have already teamed up re: the Meng Wanzhou.  China is allied with Russia, there's no reason not to make alliances and it would be foolish for like-minded countries to go it alone.  ie: Trump would have more leverage vs China if the EU was on board too.

 

Meng is big news in Canada because of prisoners in China, but it is not a big deal in the U.S.   Her charges stem from Obama era sanctions and a warrant from a court in New York, hardly a Trump stronghold.

The EU had/has more tariffs on U.S. exports than China, long before Trump.   Decades ago, China allied with the Soviets too...it did not end well.

Capital flows freely around the world now, and that includes Chinese capital.   There is no putting that genie back in the bottle, and China will no longer tolerate being the backward third world nation that has to abide by American and European rules.

Edited October 11, 2019 by bush_cheney2004

[Yzermandius19]

America ain't broke, and even if they were, they are less broke than everyone else. Canada relying on the US is good thing, there is a reason why Canada does it, and that's because it's more beneficial than relying on anyone else. That isn't going to change any time soon, so if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Argus]

12 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Red China...while indeed formidable...has very little ability to project their power other than at the tip of an ICBM

They're projecting their power with money. They're buying up ports and airports, and roping developing world government's into loans they have no ability to pay back (with the help of hefty bribes) and then using the harsh rules of the contract to take control of those countries facilities. They're using their monetary power in western academic institutes to force them into silence and acquiescence with China''s government lest they lose all their Chinese foreign students. They're forcing western companies to obey them, to hand over their intellectual property, to lobby their home government's on China's behalf. They're exerting cultural influence akin to censorship on Western media companies, who now will not approve any TV show or movie, or anything said in any TV show or movie which might offend China lest China take revenge by banning all their movies and TV shows from their internet and airwaves. And they're bribing politicians throughout the west.

China is exerting far, far more power around the world than any other country right now, and that influence is growing. They're also rapidly modernizing their military, and starting to launch large aircraft carriers to exert their military power abroad.

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

They're projecting their power with money. They're buying up ports and airports, and roping developing world government's into loans they have no ability to pay back (with the help of hefty bribes) and then using the harsh rules of the contract to take control of those countries facilities. They're using their monetary power in western academic institutes to force them into silence and acquiescence with China''s government lest they lose all their Chinese foreign students. They're forcing western companies to obey them, to hand over their intellectual property, to lobby their home government's on China's behalf. They're exerting cultural influence akin to censorship on Western media companies, who now will not approve any TV show or movie, or anything said in any TV show or movie which might offend China lest China take revenge by banning all their movies and TV shows from their internet and airwaves. And they're bribing politicians throughout the west.

China is exerting far, far more power around the world than any other country right now, and that influence is growing. They're also rapidly modernizing their military, and starting to launch large aircraft carriers to exert their military power abroad.

 

I agree..I was referring only to the military.

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

They're projecting their power with money. They're buying up ports and airports, and roping developing world government's into loans they have no ability to pay back (with the help of hefty bribes) and then using the harsh rules of the contract to take control of those countries facilities. They're using their monetary power in western academic institutes to force them into silence and acquiescence with China''s government lest they lose all their Chinese foreign students. They're forcing western companies to obey them, to hand over their intellectual property, to lobby their home government's on China's behalf. They're exerting cultural influence akin to censorship on Western media companies, who now will not approve any TV show or movie, or anything said in any TV show or movie which might offend China lest China take revenge by banning all their movies and TV shows from their internet and airwaves. And they're bribing politicians throughout the west.

China is exerting far, far more power around the world than any other country right now, and that influence is growing. They're also rapidly modernizing their military, and starting to launch large aircraft carriers to exert their military power abroad.

What would it look like for China if North America and Europe went at China on human rights, IP theft, labour conditions/wages etc. in a coordinated way?   China could no longer exert such bribery and influence.  Coordinated approaches are more effective than going it alone.  

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

They're projecting their power with money.

So this is what our politicians meant when they told us China would become more like us. Now I get it.

So, it sounds like the real problem here are the western politicians who are accepting bribes from China and facilitating our take over.

Why can't we ever do anything about that? 

Recall George Orwell's answer to the question "how do we prevent tyranny George"? The answer seemed simple enough "Just don't let it happen".

[Argus]

This shows how widespread is China's influence on western corporations that do business there, and how those western companies meekly fall into line and obey China's directives, even outside of China. Note, Air Canada does not list Taiwan as a country for fear of offending China. Even though clearly Taiwan is a country.

But the greatest act of villainous, hypocritical cowardice this past week didn’t come from the NBA. At the height of the controversy, a senior news director at ESPN mandated that the network’s coverage “avoid any political discussions about China and Hong Kong,” according to Deadspin’s summary of a leaked memo — a shocking directive for the biggest political sports story of 2019. ESPN even broadcast a map that included Taiwan as part of China and a dotted line to represent China’s disputed claims in the South China Sea. “I’ve literally never seen that map outside of China, “tweeted Julian Ku, an expert on Chinese law. It was the most telling illustration yet of a major problem in U.S.-China relations.
...

Other times, Beijing has specific demands. In July 2018,China required global airlines in all their communications to stop implying that Taiwan was independent from the mainland. A United Airlines flight, for instance, now departs from “San Francisco, CA, US” and lands simply in “Taipei,” orphaning Taiwan’s capital. Now that no major international airlines refer to Taiwan as a country, it would be newsworthy if any of their employees, advertisements or affiliates said otherwise. It’s much safer to self-censor than to risk a scandal that could cost revenue. One day in January 2018, China’s Cyberspace Administration ordered the clothing retailer Zara and the world’s largest medical device company, Medtronic, to post apologies by 6 p.m. that evening for labeling Taiwan as a separate country on their websites. It also demanded that the companies “conduct a comprehensive self-examination” to make sure there were no violations elsewhere on their sites. Both companies complied.

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/villainous-hypocritical-cowardice-how-china-gets-american-companies-to-parrot-its-propaganda

[Argus]

Want to know what closer relations with China brings? The kind Trudeau is desperate to bring about? It causes more and more interference in your govenrment and economy by Chinese agents. As Australia has discovered.

China is seeking to "take over" Australia's political system with an "insidious" and systematic campaign of espionage and influence-peddling, Canberra's ex-spymaster said in an interview published on Friday. Duncan Lewis, who resigned in September after five years at the head of the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (ASIO), said China could target anyone in political office, with the impact potentially not known for years to come.

"Espionage and foreign interference is insidious. Its effects might not present for decades and by that time it's too late," Lewis was quoted as telling the Sydney Morning Herald in his first interview since leaving office.

https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1493805-20191122.htm?spTabChangeable=0

 

[Argus]

This is another from Australia. It seems the Chinese approached a Chinese-Australian businessman who was already a member of the Liberal party and offered him half a million dollars to run for parliament and then feed them information. When he went to the authorities he mysteriously died. This is the kind of thing China does to gain influence abroad.

We've seen several reports from Canadian intelligence which suggest they're worried about certain Canadian politicians who are in China's pockets, as well. And there were suspicions raised by Canadian Chinese about Mary Ng, the Liberals new minister of small business.

On Sunday, Nine's 60 Minutes programme reported that suspected Chinese agents approached a luxury car dealer, Nick Zhao, ahead of Australia's general election - which took place in May.

They allegedly offered him A$1m (£520,000; $680,000) to fund his run for a Melbourne seat as a candidate for the ruling Liberal Party, of which Mr Zhao was already a member.

Mr Zhao gave information about the alleged approach to the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (Asio) last year, Nine reported. He was found dead in a hotel room in Melbourne in March. Police have not been able to establish how or why he died, and his death has prompted a coroner's inquiry.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-50541082

Edited November 25, 2019 by Argus

[cannuck]

On 10/11/2019 at 11:22 AM, Zeitgeist said:

What would it look like for China if North America and Europe went at China on human rights, IP theft, labour conditions/wages etc. in a coordinated way?   China could no longer exert such bribery and influence.  Coordinated approaches are more effective than going it alone.  

Which is exactly what the Trump administration is pointing out.  The first President of a world power with the balls to stand up to China.  But, YES, in a big way Europe could put a hurt on China by joining with the US, but they are far too busy being Euroweenies demonizing carbon and trying to ignore their HUGE immigration screwups.  The Brexit slap-in-the-face is the only tiny bit of reality in Looneyville EU.

[Cannucklehead]

2 hours ago, cannuck said:

Which is exactly what the Trump administration is pointing out.  The first President of a world power with the balls to stand up to China.  But, YES, in a big way Europe could put a hurt on China by joining with the US, but they are far too busy being Euroweenies demonizing carbon and trying to ignore their HUGE immigration screwups.  The Brexit slap-in-the-face is the only tiny bit of reality in Looneyville EU.

By standing up to them do you mean providing exemptions for Huawei?  

[cannuck]

34 minutes ago, Cannucklehead said:

By standing up to them do you mean providing exemptions for Huawei?  

Give them time, they will be dealt with.   Now, tell me again: what did Obama do to stand up to Beijing???

[Cannucklehead]

1 hour ago, cannuck said:

Give them time, they will be dealt with.   Now, tell me again: what did Obama do to stand up to Beijing???

The second was to revive the US economy. During Obama’s first term, when the US was mired in a financial crisis, he did a lot of work, including convening the G20 Summit, coordinating macroeconomic policies, pledging to double export growth and revitalize manufacturing. In retrospect, all these policy measures seem to have failed to achieve their expected targets—US export growth was only 60%, falling behind its original goal of doubled growth. Only to China has the US achieved a 150% growth in exports. Also, Obama failed to bring back manufacturing jobs. When Donald Trump campaigned for the presidency, he criticized the Obama administration for only bringing back three companies with 600 jobs despite its hype of manufacturing revival. While the actual results may not be as exaggerated as Trump claimed, they are far behind pledged goals.

 

not a thing.  

[cannuck]

ah...but he DID manage to cost the taxpayer more than every war, every depression and every President in the history of the country...COMBINED.

[Dougie93]

The President has no control of the purse strings, Congress is in charge of all spending.

[eyeball]

Its so weird watching right-wingers transform into lefties.

When I used to call for tying human rights to trade with China it was usually met with LOL's and I was compared to some of the worst mass murdering commies in history.  If the term virtue-signalling was around in those days they probably would smeared me with that too.

Reminds me of the way Islamophobia has made right-wingers appear sympathetic to homos.  Can't wait for the day when conservatives start taking credit for raising the alarm about climate change.  

[Argus]

1 hour ago, cannuck said:

ah...but he DID manage to cost the taxpayer more than every war, every depression and every President in the history of the country...COMBINED.

You're not blaming Obama for trying to save the financial system from collapse - caused by the Republicans, are you?

[Dougie93]

The crisis was a confluence of bipartisan unintended consequence, trying to blame one party or the other is just partisan hackery.

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, Argus said:

You're not blaming Obama for trying to save the financial system from collapse - caused by the Republicans, are you?

 

Obama just continued remedies that were already rolling from the Bush administration, including Bush era tax cuts.

Either way, it seems that what to do about China in Canada means discussing what the Americans should/should not do.

[cannuck]

3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Obama just continued remedies that were already rolling from the Bush administration, including Bush era tax cuts.

Either way, it seems that what to do about China in Canada means discussing what the Americans should/should not do.

That is 100% right.  Other than selling them a few resources, we are simply not a big enough market for them to give a flying purple frick about.  Not only that: we have a gutless wonder for a leader, backed by a cabinet of total morons.  So, why would China take us seriously.

[Dougie93]

4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Obama just continued remedies that were already rolling from the Bush administration, including Bush era tax cuts.

Either way, it seems that what to do about China in Canada means discussing what the Americans should/should not do.

Indeed, Canadians are paralyzed by their America Derangement Syndrome.   Mexico North exists only as a pale shadow of America.

[Argus]

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Obama just continued remedies that were already rolling from the Bush administration, including Bush era tax cuts.

Either way, it seems that what to do about China in Canada means discussing what the Americans should/should not do.

Oh I've said numerous times what I think Canada ought to be doing about China. That we're not doing any of it is a the result of the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of the Trudeau administration.

[Dougie93]

The entrenched interests in Canada are being frozen out of the American market, they hope to replace that market share in China.

The government is captured by these narrowly vested interests, so the government is not going to stand up to China, the Chinese have all the leverage.

[Shady]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

You're not blaming Obama for trying to save the financial system from collapse - caused by the Republicans, are you?

It wasn’t caused by Republicans.  In fact, Republicans warned of a potential crisis several times during Bush’s first term, and recommend changes.  Democrats called them racist and denied any problems existed.  Problems that were bi partisan and went into effect during the Clinton administration.  Regardless, Obama carried on with Bush’s TARP program, but Obama’s trillion dollar deficits and adding more debt than all previous presidents combined has little to do with saving the financial system.  It was large increases in domestic spending.