Canada - a wholly owned province of China

[Argus]

Terry Glavin sets out a long list of how the Trudeau government is doing its best to convince Canadians that China is not a bullying, human-rights abusing sweatshop run by corrupt tyrants, but a lovable, friendly business partner we should embrace with all our heart. After all, Trudeau has expressed his open admiration for China's dictatorial style of governing, no doubt sad he can't imprison his own critics here as well.

When it comes to the cause of browbeating reluctant Canadians into subscribing to the sleazy proposition that an ever-more-intimate relationship with the thuggish police state in Beijing is in Canada’s national interest, you’ve got to hand it to them. These people just won’t quit.

After Trudeau plucked Canada-China Business Council president Peter Harder to lead his transition team (Harder was quickly rewarded with the top Liberal post in the Senate), Stéphane Dion’s rebranded Global Affairs Canada was pressed into a top-to-bottom reconfiguration that explicitly depended upon a long-march manipulation of Canadian public opinion in Beijing’s favour.

A phalanx of Beijing-friendly bureaucrats threw themselves into the effort. Think pieces made the departmental rounds advocating that senior Canadian Armed Forces personnel acquaint themselves “on a first-name basis” with the generals of the People’s Liberation Army. Another bright idea: the whole point of the hoped-for Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement — to build an alternative to Beijing’s economic bullying throughout Asia — should be turned on its head, to embrace Beijing as a signatory and beneficiary.

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/glavin-heres-how-the-prime-minister-is-ramming-china-down-our-throats

[overthere]

On 4/9/2017 at 8:01 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

That's pretty cool...the U.S. is a giant black hole for immigrants from around the world.

Not only was Canada not getting as many Euros, but some Canadians went to the U.S. too, just like Mexican emigres.

There was a big whack of US farmers that moved to Eastern Alberta around 1900.  Cannot remember why, some kind of pogrom no doubt.

[Argus]

It's good that at least a very small number of columnists try to keep us up to date on the fact there is more going on in the world than Donald Trump, and that there are other dangers to us out there. China has recently taken the gloves off and no longer even pretends that 'private' companies are not controlled by the Communist part, including the one Trudeau is gleefully waving into Canada in exchange for campaign donations to the Liberal party.

 

Trudeau himself was an ardent champion of the China National Offshore Oil Corporation’s $15.1-billion oilpatch acquisition of Nexen Inc., Sinopec’s $2.2-billion takeover of Daylight Energy and its $4.65-billion purchase of a big chunk of Syncrude, the Chinese National Offshore Oil Corporation’s $2.34-billion gobbling over Opt-Canada, and on and on. Hey, they’re corporations like any other, Trudeau said, Canada should be open to the world.

And on and on.

Well, they’re not, they never were, and nowadays, China’s state-owned enterprises don’t even pretend to be anything less than the Chinese Communist Party’s instruments of overseas acquisitions policy that they were all along.The corporate boards of Beijing’s state-owned enterprises were always subject to directives from the corporations’ Communist Party committees. Beijing’s political objectives supersede any considerations about profit. A new directive, which came into effect Aug. 1, requires the party committees’ powers to be written into the enterprises’ articles of incorporation.

More than 30 of Beijing’s state-owned enterprises listed in Hong Kong have already amended their incorporation documents to place the Communist Party at the pinnacle of their corporate structures. The new control rules also apply to nominally private Chinese corporations, vesting party committees with vetting authority in overseas investment decisions, foreign-exchange matters and dividend distribution.

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/glavin-theres-a-wide-world-outside-the-macabre-spectacle-of-donald-trumps-america

[eyeball]

All governments are inevitably drawing closer regardless of ideology. Their more common interest, power over the governed demands it.

Anarchy is the only hope the governed have to avoid the chaos of co-dominion and hegemony.

Burn it all to the ground and start from scratch.

Edited August 31, 2017 by eyeball

[betsy]

When Trudeau spouts off about security measures and screenings regarding  AECON takeover - surely he can't  be  serious?

 

 

Quote

 

Controversial Chinese firm to buy Aecon for $1.5B pending regulatory approvals

China Communications Construction Company Ltd. said on Thursday it has agreed to pay $20.37 per Aecon share in cash to buy Aecon, which said in August that it was looking for potential buyers.

CCCC Ltd. was barred from involvement with any World Bank construction projects for eight years until recently for fraudulent practices in the Philippines.

 

http://www.kelownadailycourier.ca/business_news/national_business/article_5448ec38-3887-5307-af87-a0db5a9a59d8.html

 

Since Trudeau came to power, he seems to be selling Canada to China, piece-by-piece.

 

Quote

Ottawa approves sale of B.C. retirement-home chain to Chinese group with murky ownership

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-approves-sale-of-bc-retirement-home-chain-to-chinese-group-with-murky-ownership/article34107591/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&

 

Quote

Liberals Court Chinese Investment In Oilsands Amid National Security Concerns

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/06/08/oilsands-investment-china_n_17005774.html

 

What about NORSAT? 

 

Trudeau's vocal admiration for China's regime, is followed by a display of coziness. 

 

Quote

 

Never mind the weird go-ahead that Economic Development Minister Navdeep Bains gave to the estimated $1 billion acquisition of a Vancouver nursing home conglomerate by the opaquely-structured Chinese insurance and real-estate giant Anbang, and what it means now that Anbang chairman Wu Xiaohui has been “disappeared” by Chinese President Xi Jinping’s corruption police. Who knows? Wu’s vanishing might be just another operation in Xi’s purge of headmen he doesn’t like. And never mind for a moment the equally inexplicable green light Bains gave the Chinese telecom giant Hytera, without a proper national security review, to tender a bid for Norsat International Inc. — a high-tech firm with contracts that include the U.S. military’s communications satellites.

Set aside as well all the corporate Chinese involvement in Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s sketchy cash-for-access fundraisers and that squalid state dinner in honour of Chinese Premier Li Keqiang that Trudeau invited 61 Liberal party donors to attend last September, along with all those corporations, law firms and lobbyists up to their necks in dirty Chinese money.

 

http://nationalpost.com/opinion/terry-glavin-the-liberal-government-has-become-a-pro-china-propaganda-machine

 

It's like Trudeau selling our soul to the devil.  Where are we heading?

Edited October 28, 2017 by betsy

[Thinkinoutsidethebox]

Turning Canada into a third world country will be Trudeau's legacy.

He's up to about what, fifty million for the torture fiasco now?

Giving Bombardier to Airbus...

England says they don't want a Canada's CETA style agreement with the EU, any guesses why?

I listened to Calgary at noon call in show this week, they were asking if people felt Trudeau's looks was good for Canada's image on the world stage, most said it was. His looks have nothing to do with it, he's giving Canada away on a silver platter, anybody would be popular with his track record so far...

[Argus]

It's against ethics rules to accept paid holidays from private companies, but apparently if you're a senator or MP it's just fine to accept them from a foreign government. China has been paying for Canadian MPs and senators to come there so they can enjoy themselves and be lobbied by the Chinese Communist Party. And among the most frequent users of this generosity was John McCallum.

One of the biggest single users of the sponsored travel provided to Members of Parliament in recent years has been Canada's ambassador to China, John McCallum. He took trips valued at $73,300 from China or pro-Beijing business groups, such as the Canadian Confederation of Fujian Associations, during the years he was a backbench MP from 2008 to 2015.

Great, so we name a big China booster as our ambassador to China. I'm sure he's got an 'open door' policy to the Chinese (literally). And I think CSIS ought to be keeping a very close eye on these Chinese born parliamentarians, as well.

Two parliamentarians who appear to have cultivated ties to the agents of Chinese "soft power" are rookie Liberal MP Geng Tan, a chemical engineer born in Hunan province who came to Canada in the late 1990s, and Ontario Conservative Senator Victor Oh.

Mr. Oh and Mr. Tan serve on the board of the Canada Confederation of Shenzhen Associations, along with five Toronto-area city councillors. The lobby group promotes business and cultural ties with China, but its mission statement advocates the reunification of Taiwan and the People's Republic of China.

Mr. Tan, the first Canadian born in mainland China to be elected to Parliament, was only a rookie when he managed to secure the job of co-chair of Parliament's Canada-China Legislative Association in December of 2015, a group of MPs and senators who have an interest in building closer ties to Beijing. The group receives taxpayer funding to visit China.

But Mr. Tan and Mr. Oh have also taken private trips to China sponsored by the Chinese government and pro-Beijing business groups.

The two men have met with officials from the United Front, the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference, a tool of the United Front, as well as the All-China Federation of Returned Overseas Chinese, which is another organ employed to manage the ethnic diaspora living outside China.

In several instances, the trips were not declared to Parliament's ethics officers. When The Globe and Mail raised the matter, both men explained that was because they had paid the expenses for these visits out of their own pockets.

During a visit to his home town of Changsha in July, 2017, Mr. Tan met with two top officials of Beijing's United Front and key body, the Chinese People's Consultative Conference (CPCC), which operate worldwide and often work through overseas Chinese associations.

He first denied ever taking the trip when approached by The Globe.

When The Globe pointed out that there were pictures of the MP in local Chinese newspapers with United Front and CPCC officials, Mr. Tan recalled that he had indeed been there but insisted he paid for the trip himself.

"It is my own trip," Mr. Tan said. "I use that time to visit my mom and grandmom."

During the trip, he took time for meetings with United Front representatives Da Bi Xin and Tian Huayu and CPCC chairman Wu Shuyuan and local Communist Party boss Qui Chuankai.

Mr. Tan also accepted a free trip to Hunan province in April paid for by Kai Wu, a Toronto-based businessman who set up an immigrant investment and education business after emigrating from Hunan province.

Mr. Wu, who is a regular donor to the Liberal Party, appeared to be unsure of what exactly he expected in return from Mr. Tan for footing the trip to China.

"I can't remember … He didn't help me with anything, I don't think," he said, explaining the Liberal MP is helping Canadian businesses.

Asked again if he remembered what Mr. Tan did to help him, Mr. Wu said, "No, he didn't help me" and then hung up after saying he had a cold and was losing his voice.

paywalled, which is why I posted so much.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/beijing-foots-bill-for-visits-to-china-by-canadian-senators-mps/article37162592/

Edited December 1, 2017 by Argus

[Argus]

Now that Canada has lately become notoriously and uniquely supine among the G7 countries in its dealings with the increasingly bellicose and tyrannical regime in Beijing, and with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau again jetting off to China, the usual background noise of humbug, half-truth and outright lies will be at full volume. It is very much an open question whether there is something either preposterously naive or scandalous and sinister underlying the Trudeau government’s unseemly enthusiasm for the Chinese Communist Party leadership, but for the moment, let’s set that question aside and just focus on the propaganda we’re being expected to stomach.

http://nationalpost.com/opinion/terry-glavin-the-liberals-are-dangerously-wrong-on-china-they-have-always-been

[cannuck]

On 8/18/2016 at 5:11 PM, Argus said:

Okay. I'm fine with that. Chinese trade brings little of benefit to any other country. They cheat on all the rules and they make sure the play favors them. Boeing went over there and built a plant to build them airliners. Soon the Chinese will be selling airliners to the world and Boeing will be closing down its American plants, and you'll still be crowing about how great a deal that was.

found this thread and had a quick look, though maybe time for a little counterpoint to bjre.   Not that you and Tim have not been carrying the ball very well, I just have a bit different point of view.

First of all, I had an office in Guangzhou from the early '90s and later in Shenzhen until my very good friend and business partner died in 2007.  He was borne in China to a Canadian father and Chinese mother, but due to the Exclusion Act, was not able to be brought home.  Mom kept them alive throughout the Japanese invasion and occupation, then walked her pre-teen son over 1,000 kms. through the battles between the Nationalist and Red Army.   My friend was, let's just say known to a significant number of people in Canton and when the Nationalists retreated to Taiwan, Hong Kong who would go on to be important to the development of China, Hong Kong and Taiwan in the future.  They were some of the first people to immigrate (Exclusion Act ended IIRC in '47, but first actual immigrants arrived in '52).  After becoming a very successful businessman in Canada, my then young friend did business for Communist China (something for a Nationalist!!) all through the '70s and '80s.  He not only traded internationally for food, but travelled extensively throughout China dealing with provincial leaders regarding food distribution.  Unlike Chinese citizens in Mao's time, and even deep into Deng's time, he knew far, far better what was actually going on in the country.

After his passing, I stayed in touch with my closest Chinese friend, who rose to the very top of one of those massive state owned enterprises (vice chair, responsible for all international business).  He has continued my education on how exactly things are actually done in China.  BTW:  he immigrated last year, as even from an extremely privileged position, he had no further desire to raise his son in China.

So, to summarize: I know China first hand from my many years working in and out of there, and second hand from people far, far more knowledgeable than 99.99% of Chinese when it comes to economic policies and the strategies employed to carry this out.   From all of that, I can say that China is one thing above all else in international business - PREDATORY.  It has an extremely active and highly organized (and effective) policy of stealing technology, of coming into marketplaces and destroying local competitors, abusing their host country to exploit resources, and walking out the door leaving nothing behind.  As has been mentioned in this thread, big business only gets into China by having a state owned entity as an equal partner.  GM only managed to outgrow the market leader (VW, first big company to come in) because they were so weak that the Chinese partner managed to seize de facto control and have their way with the bankrupt yanks.

When I see someone as totally inept as Trudeau trying to make some kind of deal believing we will come out somewhere near even in trade with China, it makes my cry to think there are people this stupid in Ottawa.  The title of the thread is a lot more prophetic than I would wish.

Edited December 5, 2017 by cannuck

[Michael Hardner]

The idea that Trudeau alone is negotiating this, and that his lack of intelligence in that regard will immerse us in an inextricable deal that will ruin Canada is so simplistic as to be deceptive.  

If somebody could articulate both sides of the argument about trade with China a little better I would be inclined to listen.  Anyone ?

[PIK]

Flies over for some big news and nothing happens , just imagine if harper wasted money like that.

[Argus]

3 hours ago, PIK said:

Flies over for some big news and nothing happens , just imagine if harper wasted money like that.

He flew over to announce, according to the media, the start of free trade negotiations. He was so sure of it that they let this leak to the media and brought only trade representatives leaving his foreign minister at home. Then... the Chinese laughed in his face and booted him out the door. Someone in the Canadian government was deeply misled by the Chinese, probably our new China-boosting ambassador, into thinking we had a deal to start. Why would the Chinese mislead him? My own guess is to get something from Canada, which, apparently, they got, and so now they don't need to care. What was it they got? Could be a number of things, but very recently Canada threw a wrench into the TPP, which angered Japan but pleased China.... Was that done at China's behest with assurances we didn't need the TPP because big China was there?

[Goddess]

18 minutes ago, Argus said:

He flew over to announce, according to the media, the start of free trade negotiations. He was so sure of it that they let this leak to the media and brought only trade representatives leaving his foreign minister at home. Then... the Chinese laughed in his face and booted him out the door. Someone in the Canadian government was deeply misled by the Chinese, probably our new China-boosting ambassador, into thinking we had a deal to start. Why would the Chinese mislead him? My own guess is to get something from Canada, which, apparently, they got, and so now they don't need to care. What was it they got? Could be a number of things, but very recently Canada threw a wrench into the TPP, which angered Japan but pleased China.... Was that done at China's behest with assurances we didn't need the TPP because big China was there?

There was a thing on the news last night, too, about China no longer accepting our recyclables and how it will affect Canada.  Of course, the doomsdayers predict a reversal - where China is now environmentally up to standards and Canada will be plunged into a 3rd world garbage dump type scenario.

I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the other, I'm sort of just learning the whole trade picture.  So thank you, everyone,  for clarifying so many questions I had with your comments on this thread. 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Goddess

[PIK]

3 hours ago, Argus said:

He flew over to announce, according to the media, the start of free trade negotiations. He was so sure of it that they let this leak to the media and brought only trade representatives leaving his foreign minister at home. Then... the Chinese laughed in his face and booted him out the door. Someone in the Canadian government was deeply misled by the Chinese, probably our new China-boosting ambassador, into thinking we had a deal to start. Why would the Chinese mislead him? My own guess is to get something from Canada, which, apparently, they got, and so now they don't need to care. What was it they got? Could be a number of things, but very recently Canada threw a wrench into the TPP, which angered Japan but pleased China.... Was that done at China's behest with assurances we didn't need the TPP because big China was there?

Our China-boozing ambassador you mean?

[OftenWrong]

Trudeau keeps his yapper shut when it comes to China's well-known human rights abuses, but just had to say something to Duterte at the ASEAN conference. I guess he couldn't care less about Canada's relationship with the Phillipines... no money in it.

[eyeball]

On 12/5/2017 at 4:28 AM, Michael Hardner said:

The idea that Trudeau alone is negotiating this, and that his lack of intelligence in that regard will immerse us in an inextricable deal that will ruin Canada is so simplistic as to be deceptive.  

If somebody could articulate both sides of the argument about trade with China a little better I would be inclined to listen.  Anyone ?

Well, there's another side to an old argument in favour of trade with China, that trade would cause China to govern itself more like us. The other unmentioned side of the argument is that trading with China would make us govern ourselves more like them.

Now we have a PM who's stated an admiration for the way China's government can get things done - the implication seems to be that our government and economy is too constrained, presumably by our higher standards.  To me the greatest threat to both our societies is the fusion of state and corporate power - a development that appears to be progressing around the world regardless of what type of government exists.  Trudeau on his own will neither make nor break this progression and at the end of the day and I expect the power of the state will continue to expand along with more opportunities for the wealthy.  They can't seem to control themselves any more than we can.   

Humanities greatest challenge is as timeless as it is unchanging - the struggle between the governed and those who govern.  

 

Edited December 6, 2017 by eyeball

[Argus]

17 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Trudeau keeps his yapper shut when it comes to China's well-known human rights abuses, but just had to say something to Duterte at the ASEAN conference. I guess he couldn't care less about Canada's relationship with the Phillipines... no money in it.

Filipino-Canadian businessmen aren't lining up at the behest of Duterte to pay money to have lunch with Trudeau and his ministers.

 

[Omni]

18 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Trudeau keeps his yapper shut when it comes to China's well-known human rights abuses, but just had to say something to Duterte at the ASEAN conference. I guess he couldn't care less about Canada's relationship with the Phillipines... no money in it.

Trudeau likes to smoke a doobie once in a while. He's maybe afraid Duterte will have him killed over that.

[cannuck]

On 12/5/2017 at 6:28 AM, Michael Hardner said:

If somebody could articulate both sides of the argument about trade with China a little better I would be inclined to listen.  Anyone ?

It is actually fairly simple:  in matters of trade, China will follow the rules in China (which essentially means "do what you wish, just don't irritate the CiCom Party) and Canada will folow the rules of Canada - that for the most part mean to follow the rules.

The other issue is that China has few natural resources and Canada has an abundance.  Therefore, to earn any export money, China does to by adding value, whereas in Canada, our manufacturing and other value added component is immature in some sectors and non-existant in others.   We draw some water, hue some wood, grow some wheat and send a commodity out at a very small return.  They in turn process our resources and sell them on to us an others at 100x value added.   Like complete fools, we just smile and buy some of the worst quality CRAP that we will have to replace (from China) many times over the lifespan of a decent quality domestic product. 

Problem is: as we continue to mine our finite resources for the quick, easy and SMALL buck, those who would do the real work and add value are no longer in business.   Compound that with our switch to a speculative economy, and there is little opportunity to fund value added enterprise on Main Street, as in our blind plunge into the religion of greed, we just give it to Bay Street (really, more often to Wall Street) waiting for some free ride miracle to make us rich.  Now, China has a BIG problem with gambling, and speculative ventures are right down their alley, but 100% of the money they use to play is coming from a massive productive sector that adds a hell of a lot of value...enough to make Chinese companies from zero to hero buying up major enterprises worldwide with surplus cash - earned from selling us endless containerloads of worthless crap that we no longer have the productive ability to displace.

[Argus]

Wondering why so many Chinese-Canadians line up for those Liberal Party 'lunches' with Trudeau and his ministers?

It has similarities to what Canada does in the United States by reaching out to Congress, business leaders and others to sell the merits of NAFTA — with one key difference.

“We do that above board, we do that publicly. Where China differs is its willingness to use diaspora groups, people who have an economic stake in China to work behind the scenes,” Mulroney said.

“That’s a form of interference in Canadian affairs.”

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/economy/watch-chinas-efforts-to-influence-as-canada-pursues-trade-says-former-envoy/wcm/b9a71c96-f933-4dc0-9705-0a90b83b451e

[Michael Hardner]

On 12/8/2017 at 9:52 AM, cannuck said:

It is actually fairly simple:  in matters of trade, China will follow the rules in China (which essentially means "do what you wish, just don't irritate the CiCom Party) and Canada will folow the rules of Canada - that for the most part mean to follow the rules.

First of all, I asked for someone to provide BOTH sides, and you come back with a very flawed presentation of the 'against' side.

First point (by you) China cheats.  That's very simplistic.  Trade deals are designed by specialists, who build in mechanisms to trust and verify.  Canada will not be inexorably tied to China in some soul-selling deal that can never be retracted, that's just stupid.

Quote

The other issue is that China has few natural resources and Canada has an abundance.  Therefore, to earn any export money, China does to by adding value, whereas in Canada, our manufacturing and other value added component is immature in some sectors and non-existant in others.   We draw some water, hue some wood, grow some wheat and send a commodity out at a very small return.  They in turn process our resources and sell them on to us an others at 100x value added.   Like complete fools, we just smile and buy some of the worst quality CRAP that we will have to replace (from China) many times over the lifespan of a decent quality domestic product. 

You argument is absolutely retarded.  You are placing China in the 21st century with Canada in the 18th.  How many water drawers, wood huers, wheat growers do you know ?  We produce software, provide financial services, provide health technology and yes we manufacture things.  100X value added ?

Quote

Problem is: as we continue to mine our finite resources for the quick, easy and SMALL buck, those who would do the real work and add value are no longer in business.   Compound that with our switch to a speculative economy, and there is little opportunity to fund value added enterprise on Main Street, as in our blind plunge into the religion of greed, we just give it to Bay Street (really, more often to Wall Street) waiting for some free ride miracle to make us rich.  Now, China has a BIG problem with gambling, and speculative ventures are right down their alley, but 100% of the money they use to play is coming from a massive productive sector that adds a hell of a lot of value...enough to make Chinese companies from zero to hero buying up major enterprises worldwide with surplus cash - earned from selling us endless containerloads of worthless crap that we no longer have the productive ability to displace.

You say 'our' switch to a speculative economy and then accuse China of doing the same.  It's easy moralizing with no cites or proof provided to back it up.

I'll give you a chance here to say "Sorry, Michael, you are right." and retract everything and start over.  How about it ?

 

[Argus]

 

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

First point (by you) China cheats.  That's very simplistic.  Trade deals are designed by specialists, who build in mechanisms to trust and verify.  Canada will not be inexorably tied to China in some soul-selling deal that can never be retracted, that's just stupid.

China does not operate under the rule of law. Reciprocal rights are meaningless given their courts will find whatever the government tells them to, and that their companies will always do whatever their government tells them to do, in public or in private. China might, for example, win the right to sell a good anywhere in Canada in whatever amount without surcharges in exchange for Canada selling a good anywhere in China without surcharges. Only Canada will find itself unable to sell that product if the Chinese have a quiet word with companies and tell them not to buy.

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

You argument is absolutely retarded.  You are placing China in the 21st century with Canada in the 18th.  How many water drawers, wood huers, wheat growers do you know ?  We produce software, provide financial services, provide health technology and yes we manufacture things.  100X value added ?

But they produce all that too and much cheaper given their salary and tax structure. Which means we have little chance of selling finished goods and services to them. In the event they like some product we produce they'll simply manufacture it themselves since they have little respect for intellectual property rights, or, at best, allow the Canadian manufacturer to go there and set up a plant there to build it with Chinese workers. Meanwhile they will insist on party structures within your planet, and siphon away any product information so they can build their own without you.

 

[cannuck]

6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

 

I'll give you a chance here to say "Sorry, Michael, you are right." and retract everything and start over.  How about it ?

 

ah...nawww.

Let me tell you how it works in the real world.

One of my long time friends has an office just down the road from mine.  They are in the livestock feed system business, and he is the key man writing software and integrating hardware.  They are one of the success stories, sell their stuff around the world.

About 10 years ago, he was sequestered for over a year, working secretively to develop a very unique and new approach to how the software worked using ROP feedback to adjust rations in real time.  They decided to introduce this to the world in their first ever trip to a major IT show in Guangzhou.  My buddy was scheduled to roll this out in a formal presentation on day two.  He set up his booth on day one, and was approached by more than one person from China offering to sell him a new bit of revolutionary software - HIS OWN that had never been shown to anyone, anywhere at any time.

That is business and trade, Chinese style.  Any idea of legitimacy and integrity you might get from some idiot bureaucrat is pure fancy.

Welcome to the real world.  You might imagine it.  In business, we live it.

BTW: I personally know literally hundreds of hewers of wood, drawers of water and growers of wheat.

Edited December 9, 2017 by cannuck

[Michael Hardner]

22 hours ago, Argus said:

Only Canada will find itself unable to sell that product if the Chinese have a quiet word with companies and tell them not to buy.

I appreciate your perspective but I have heard enough from that side of it, I want to hear pro-trade now so I can weigh it out.

And I still think this: "Canada will not be inexorably tied to China in some soul-selling deal that can never be retracted, that's just stupid." still stands.

[Michael Hardner]

17 hours ago, cannuck said:

 That is business and trade, Chinese style.  Any idea of legitimacy and integrity you might get from some idiot bureaucrat is pure fancy.

What is your example ?  Some desktop software ?  How is China going to 'Steal' services that Canadians can provide, and that they can't ?  The company CGI is a world leader in computer consulting - how will they steal that ?  

I have had enough of this.  I see flaws in your argument, and my point that Canada can't sell its soul has not been addressed.  I have asked for points from the other side, so I'll wait on those.

I'm not going to put you on 'Ignore' yet but your arguments are pretty narrow and anecdotal for me.  I picked up some points from both you and Argus but not enough to sway me one way or the other.