Canada - a wholly owned province of China

[SpankyMcFarland]

We are in a tough spot with the Chinese government. Any sudden deterioration of relations would hurt us a lot more than them. I would advise passive aggression - friendly public statements from the PM, steering clear of human rights as much as possible, but a cautious approach to any changes that would further increase their influence in our country. How many operatives do they already have here?

Edited August 27, 2016 by SpankyMcFarland

[Machjo]

Too many US company in China ask for English speaking employees. When I was in China, I have several job interviews by foreigner, they did not speaking Chinese, that means I will have no chance if I can not speak English.

You can't blame Canada for that.

If I were China, I probably would have done the following.

1. Create an international Chinese-language passport that anyone can obtain by passing a Chinese-language test.

2. Create an Esperanto passport that any person under the age of fifteen can obtain (but that expires before his fifteenth birthday), that anyone who pases an Esperanto test can obtain, and that anyone with a compassionate exemption or specialist-knowledge can obtain with the rationale for the exemption and its limitations being printed in the passport or the specialist knowledge being indicated in the passport.

3. Only a holder of a Chinese passport (including any SAR passport), a Chinese-language passport, or an Esperanto passport can enter China.

This could hurt the Chinese tourism industry somewhat in the short term but would save the economy far more in the long term due to Esperanto being from five to ten times easier to learn than English.

I'd lived in China, and most Chinese learnt just enough English to pass the test and then forgot about it. Waste of time and money.

[Argus]

We are in a tough spot with the Chinese government. Any sudden deterioration of relations would hurt us a lot more than them

It would? How? We have a $45 billion trade deficit with China. They buy a few billion in canola oil, agricultural and mining materials, and sell us manufactured goods which are responsible for tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of jobs in China. How exactly can they hurt us compared what we can do to them?

Edited August 27, 2016 by Argus

[SpankyMcFarland]

It would? How? We have a $45 billion trade deficit with China. They buy a few billion in canola oil, agricultural and mining materials, and sell us manufactured goods which are responsible for tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of jobs in China. How exactly can they hurt us compared what we can do to them?

There could be negative consequences for both parties. As to how they can hurt us, do we want a trade war? Are we ready for such unpleasantness? Ask the govts and realtors of BC and Ontario. How keen would we be to burst the property bubble now? It might be good in the long-term but there would be pain. They are a major economy and we are a minor one. Whatever happens with us is peripheral to their concerns. Any inconvenience we could cause them would be temporary while all the stuff we buy in Walmart could take a sudden hike in price. We have had a Faustian bargain going with the Chinese for decades - they've kept inflation low and we've sent them our jobs.

This being Canada, I suspect we also have a fairly sketchy idea of how deeply they have compromised our govt computer systems and who works for them. A lot of mistakes have already been made.

We can get tougher with China - but quietly. The success of Trump suggests that we'll be fighting more of our own battles from now on with less backing from Uncle Sam.

Edited August 28, 2016 by SpankyMcFarland

[Machjo]

Aside from agriculture, in very few. If we have a shortage in some skills areas then we ought to be training people to fill them, not importing foreigners.

Firstly, are we willing to pay the higher taxes to train them?

Secondly, would allowing skilled foreign nationals in not expand the tax base to obtain the extra money needed to train unskilled Canadians?

You seem to be treating it as an either-or scenario.

[Argus]

There could be negative consequences for both parties. As to how they can hurt us, do we want a trade war?

Why not? What's the downside? How many Canadian jobs depend on China?

Are we ready for such unpleasantness? Ask the govts and realtors of BC and Ontario. How keen would we be to burst the property bubble now?

So we should ignore China's gross violations of human rights, its abuse of trade rights, its interminable spying on us and hacking of our computers and let it treat us like crap so they continue to allow their criminals to stash their illegal money in Vancouver condos?

Whatever happens with us is peripheral to their concerns. Any inconvenience we could cause them would be temporary while all the stuff we buy in Walmart could take a sudden hike in price. We have had a Faustian bargain going with the Chinese for decades - they've kept inflation low and we've sent them our jobs.

I think we could fairly easily replace the crappy consumer goods we get from China, whereas they'd have a hard time replacing a customer who buys tens of billions of dollars from them every year.

[Argus]

Firstly, are we willing to pay the higher taxes to train them?

Yes, but I doubt it would require higher taxes. Remember that the re-trained workers spend their money HERE, vs the foreign workers who take their money with them when they leave. So the benefits vastly outweigh the costs.

Secondly, would allowing skilled foreign nationals in not expand the tax base to obtain the extra money needed to train unskilled Canadians?

Most of the foreign workers who come to Canada are not very skilled. And in the case of Chinese skilled workers we shouldn't trust them not to be spying or stealing company documents or compromising computer systems. If you hire a Chinese computer engineer to work at your company you can be virtually certain the Chinese government will be looting your computers within the month.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Argus

[dre]

It would? How? We have a $45 billion trade deficit with China. They buy a few billion in canola oil, agricultural and mining materials, and sell us manufactured goods which are responsible for tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of jobs in China. How exactly can they hurt us compared what we can do to them?

Well it would hurt the small number of financial elites that get most of the benefits from free trade, and a lot of the goods you buy would double in price.

In the long term though it would be a good thing.

[dre]

Why not? What's the downside? How many Canadian jobs depend on China?

I don't know the exact number but its a lot. When conservative hucksters and financial elites tricked us into free trade, we started to become more and more dependent on the service sector. A lot of Canadians make a living selling imports to other Canadians. If for example we were to impose a ban on chinese products or very high tarrifs... Bye bye walmart, bye bye Canadian tire, bye bye pretty much all big box stores.

[WestCoastRunner]

If you hire a Chinese computer engineer to work at your company you can be virtually certain the Chinese government will be looting your computers within the month.

Cite?

Edited August 28, 2016 by WestCoastRunner

[WestCoastRunner]

Remember that the re-trained workers spend their money HERE, vs the foreign workers who take their money with them when they leave. So the benefits vastly outweigh the costs.

Cite?

[WestCoastRunner]

I think we could fairly easily replace the crappy consumer goods we get from China, whereas they'd have a hard time replacing a customer who buys tens of billions of dollars from them every year.

Fairly easily? Not without foreign workers and of course what Canadian is going to pay a price to support union wages?

[SpankyMcFarland]

Why not? What's the downside? How many Canadian jobs depend on China?

So we should ignore China's gross violations of human rights, its abuse of trade rights, its interminable spying on us and hacking of our computers and let it treat us like crap so they continue to allow their criminals to stash their illegal money in Vancouver condos?

I think we could fairly easily replace the crappy consumer goods we get from China, whereas they'd have a hard time replacing a customer who buys tens of billions of dollars from them every year.

I don't want to sound like a booster for China here. It IS a bit mystifying that we can't be tougher.

China's record on human rights is terrible but it won't listen to us, and no two countries have the same approach to human rights.

The consumer goods from China are not 'crappy' - they are amazingly inexpensive and of impressive quality for the price. No other country can compete with them. If we cut them out, we would see a significant increase in prices for consumer goods and serious disruption of our retail sector.

A full-on trade war, with generalised Chinese divestment from Canada, would have serious implications across our economy and potentially public order issues in BC. I don't see the BC govt or the oil sector welcoming that.

Edited August 29, 2016 by SpankyMcFarland

[Argus]

I don't know the exact number but its a lot. When conservative hucksters and financial elites tricked us into free trade, we started to become more and more dependent on the service sector. A lot of Canadians make a living selling imports to other Canadians. If for example we were to impose a ban on chinese products or very high tarrifs... Bye bye walmart, bye bye Canadian tire, bye bye pretty much all big box stores.

Oh nonsense. Like we can't get the same stuff from Thailand, Vietnam, Taiwan and Malaysia! Not to mention South Korea and India. There is plenty of cheaply made stuff out there if we want to import it.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Argus

[SpankyMcFarland]

Oh nonsense. Like we can't get the same stuff from Thailand, Vietnam, Taiwan and Malaysia! Not to mention South Korea and India. There is plenty of cheaply made stuff out there if we want to import it.

South Korea cannot compete on price. India cannot compete on quality or range of goods.

[dre]

Oh nonsense. Like we can't get the same stuff from Thailand, Vietnam, Taiwan and Malaysia! Not to mention South Korea and India. There is plenty of cheaply made stuff out there if we want to import it.

The cost of manufacturing in those places is a lot higher. Wages are twice as high in Thailand as in Japan. There's a reason why see to much Chinese stuff when you walk through a large retailer... That's where those retailers get the best deals. And it would take those countries 20 years to even build the infrastructure to replace china as the biggest producer of western consumables.

[Argus]

The cost of manufacturing in those places is a lot higher. Wages are twice as high in Thailand as in Japan. There's a reason why see to much Chinese stuff when you walk through a large retailer... That's where those retailers get the best deals. And it would take those countries 20 years to even build the infrastructure to replace china as the biggest producer of western consumables.

Wages in China are only a little less than those in Thailand ($3012 vs $2472) and much more than in Vietnam (1296), the Philippines (1515), India (689), and Indonesia (1097). China's wage rates are also much higher than in south and central America, including Mexico.

And it's not like I'm talking about banning all Chinese exports anyway. I'm talking about standing up for ourselves, and if China wants to impose unreasonable tariffs or bans on some of our exports we can do the same on some of theirs. That means we can make a lot of their exports to Canada more expensive so Canadian retailers source the goods from Mexico or Brazil or Thailand instead.

[SpankyMcFarland]

Well, here's an example from thousands of somebody JT could mention to the Chi-Coms. Canadian connection, too:

http://www.wangbingzhang.org

[Argus]

So the Liberals, no doubt while on their bellies and licking the shoes of their Chinese masters, have agreed not only to join China's new rival to the World Bank (the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank) but to open SEVEN new visa centers in China

The AIIB is a Chinese led rival to the world bank and is designed mostly to expand Chinese influence around the world. There is no up side for Canada in joining it.

Seven new Visa centers? That brings the number to ELEVEN. It's worth noting that's more than in all of Europe combined. There are no visa centers in lots of European countries despite the number of potential high quality immigrants there. There are a total of three in India, despite the fact that according to an immigration Canada report last year Indian immigrants are among the more prosperous and economically successful immigrants to Canada and Chinese are among the LEAST economically successful.

And in return for crawling on their belly the Liberals got -- a reprieve on China barring Canola imports... which is an issue the Chinese only created in order to 'bargain' it away. So the remaining question is how many temporary foreign workers have the Liberals promised their Chinese masters they will admit into Canada next year? Don't expect them to publicize that one.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/canada-to-open-seven-new-visa-centres-in-china-to-attract-more-tourists/article31658343/

Edited September 1, 2016 by Argus

[TimG]

The AIIB is a Chinese led rival to the world bank and is designed mostly to expand Chinese influence around the world. There is no up side for Canada in joining it.

It will also cost ~4 billion - which almost exceeds our annual foreign aid budget. A huge waste of money.

[cybercoma]

Rona Ambrose criticized Justin Trudeau for not listening to China about pipelines.

What was that about wholly owned province of China?

[TimG]

Rona Ambrose criticized Justin Trudeau for not listening to China about pipelines.

Well, Trudeau stratergy appears to be:

1) Kill off Canadian companies with absurd regulations that prevent them from exporting their products;

2) Eliminate rules that restrict foreign governments from buying up rights to Canadian resources;

3) Eliminate jobs for Canadians by allowing these Chinese companies to import workers;

Which country is Trudeau supposed to be leading? It is hard to keep track.

Edited September 5, 2016 by TimG

[cybercoma]

And? You're criticizing him for listening to China, while your party's leader is criticizing him for not listening to China. You seem confused.

[?Impact]

That brings the number to ELEVEN. It's worth noting that's more than in all of Europe combined. There are no visa centers in lots of European countries despite the number of potential high quality immigrants there.

Citizens of the People's republic of China require a visa to travel to Canada, those from most European countries only need an eTA if travelling by air or non if travelling by land/sea. Perhaps it is the fact that visa centres in Europe would be essentially useless is the reason for this disparity. I don't have any buggy whip stores in my hometown either.

How many Embassies and Consulates does Canada have in Europe (34 by my count, 3 of which are Embassy offices but still more than a visa office0? Note that there are twice the number of people in China spread over three times the area.

Edited September 7, 2016 by ?Impact

[Argus]

Citizens of the People's republic of China require a visa to travel to Canada, those from most European countries only need an eTA if travelling by air or non if travelling by land/sea. Perhaps it is the fact that visa centres in Europe would be essentially useless is the reason for this disparity. I don't have any buggy whip stores in my hometown either.

I don't think for a moment China's foreign affairs minister pressured Canada to open more visa offices to make it easier on Chinese tourists. The purpose of more visa offices is to allow more Chinese temporary foreign workers to come to Canada. Period. McCallum is already making mouth noises about the rules being too tight and the enforcement too strong. The Liberals are on their bellies, crawling before the Chinese government and doing whatever they're told to do.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Argus