Donald vs Hillary

October 6, 2016

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/us/elections/polls.html

Yeah, I'll believe it when they've voted.

bush_cheney2004 · October 6, 2016

The history of why Americans hate Hillary Clinton, not just her record, but her personally:

For many, however, resistance to Clinton goes beyond policy. “It’s not that I just don’t like Hillary’s positions,” says Margo Guryan Rosner, a Los Angeles songwriter (her work has been recorded by Julie London, Mama Cass, and Harry Belafonte, among others) and Sanders devotee. “I don’t like her.”

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2016/07/the_people_who_hate_hillary_clinton_the_most.html

I dare say that Americans know Hillary Clinton better than admirers from across the border, as well they should.

Edited October 6, 2016 by bush_cheney2004

Hal 9000 · October 6, 2016

People are so vocal about how they hate Hillary because of reasons, but nobody ever actually articulate those reasons. I'm just hoping for once to get some specifics.

I'm also not sure whether many Trump supporters even know why they're mad about Benghazi Benghazi Benghazi, or know much about it at all other than it's something that they believe is Hillary's fault.

-k

Try Google. I'd give a link, but you'd clearly argue the validity of source. Anyway, someone who is fighting so hard to believe that there are only 2 Hilary scandals, and not very significant ones at that, has to be in clear denial or just not too bright.

bush_cheney2004 · October 6, 2016

Tonight my dear wife asked me if there were any other choices on our 2016 state ballot for president. Agreeing with her that "Donald vs. Hillary" really are two dreadful choices, I printed out the current ballot candidates that we and other Americans would see, depending on state or territory:

http://www.politics1.com/p2016.htm

kimmy · October 6, 2016

Try Google. I'd give a link, but you'd clearly argue the validity of source. Anyway, someone who is fighting so hard to believe that there are only 2 Hilary scandals, and not very significant ones at that, has to be in clear denial or just not too bright.

I don't need links, I'll do my own research on the topics you suggest.

I'm certainly aware that folks who spend their time in the right-wing media and blogosphere believe she's an awful person, but the claims range anywhere from "she and Bill use the Clinton Foundation to enrich themselves!" to "she left the heroes of Benghazi to die!" to "she is an NWO agent who will bring in one-world government!" to "she's an alien reptiloid who will herd humans into FEMA Death Camps for mass execution!"

The claims made against her that I believe have substance are

-the email server, obviously

-she willfully mislead the public about the nature of the Benghazi attack

-her role as Secretary of State while Bill solicited donations for the Clinton Foundation has the appearance of impropriety.

That's it.

While I believe that using a private email server to skirt FOIA requests is shady, I don't think it would even make a top 100 list of shady things her opponent has done.

While I believe that misleading the public to believe that it was a protest against a Youtube video rather than a terrorist attack on a US facility is deceptive, I don't give any credit to the right-wing theory that "she left the heroes of Benghazi to die!" or that she was personally responsible for deciding whether the facility had adequate security.

While I believe that having her husband traveling the globe looking for donations for their charity foundation while she was Secretary of State shows questionable judgment and invites accusations of impropriety, the Clinton Foundation is a real, actual charity that is highly rated in terms of efficiency of donations relative to overhead. This is in stark contrast to her opponent's fake charity that isn't registered, or audited, and is used to buy portraits of Trump, sports memorabilia, pay legal bills for Trump businesses, and issue bribes.

Now, undoubtedly you're saying that I've totally missed huge Clinton scandals. Here's your chance! Let's hear it! Lay it out!

-k

Hal 9000 · October 6, 2016

I don't need links, I'll do my own research on the topics you suggest.

I'm certainly aware that folks who spend their time in the right-wing media and blogosphere believe she's an awful person, but the claims range anywhere from "she and Bill use the Clinton Foundation to enrich themselves!" to "she left the heroes of Benghazi to die!" to "she is an NWO agent who will bring in one-world government!" to "she's an alien reptiloid who will herd humans into FEMA Death Camps for mass execution!"

The claims made against her that I believe have substance are

-the email server, obviously

-she willfully mislead the public about the nature of the Benghazi attack

-her role as Secretary of State while Bill solicited donations for the Clinton Foundation has the appearance of impropriety.

That's it.

While I believe that using a private email server to skirt FOIA requests is shady, I don't think it would even make a top 100 list of shady things her opponent has done.

While I believe that misleading the public to believe that it was a protest against a Youtube video rather than a terrorist attack on a US facility is deceptive, I don't give any credit to the right-wing theory that "she left the heroes of Benghazi to die!" or that she was personally responsible for deciding whether the facility had adequate security.

While I believe that having her husband traveling the globe looking for donations for their charity foundation while she was Secretary of State shows questionable judgment and invites accusations of impropriety, the Clinton Foundation is a real, actual charity that is highly rated in terms of efficiency of donations relative to overhead. This is in stark contrast to her opponent's fake charity that isn't registered, or audited, and is used to buy portraits of Trump, sports memorabilia, pay legal bills for Trump businesses, and issue bribes.

Now, undoubtedly you're saying that I've totally missed huge Clinton scandals. Here's your chance! Let's hear it! Lay it out!

-k

I'm on my phone so I can't link. However, I'm sure we've talked about her treatment of bills women (or victims).

In listening to you, it's clear that Hillary has successfully convinced you people that calling Rosie odonnell or some beauty queen (who threatened a judges life) overweight is worse than her misdeeds - which include regime change against her own military advisors, which has left thousands dead or her threats and intimidation of Bills rape victims.

Anyway, back to the emails, you do know they're still out there somewhere right? The dens seem to blame the Russians. What kind of leverage do you think that gives Putin?

Bonam · October 6, 2016

However, I'm sure we've talked about her treatment of bills women (or victims).

His victims? Was he convicted of rape at some point and I missed it?

In listening to you, it's clear that Hillary has successfully convinced you people that calling Rosie odonnell or some beauty queen (who threatened a judges life) overweight is worse than her misdeeds - which include regime change against her own military advisors, which has left thousands dead or her threats and intimidation of Bills rape victims.

Hillary implemented regime change "against her own advisors" which left thousands dead? Link?

Anyway, back to the emails, you do know they're still out there somewhere right? The dens seem to blame the Russians. What kind of leverage do you think that gives Putin?

"Out there somewhere"... huh? Emails are emails. They each have a sender and a receiver. So clearly whatever happened with them on Hillary's end, each email also exists on (at least one) another person's end somewhere else. And the NSA has probably read all of them. Also, the emails that are believed to have been hacked by the Russians are a different set of emails, from the DNC, not from Hillary's server. Keep your email scandals straight...

What kind of leverage does this give Russia? I'd guess pretty much none. These aren't federal government emails, they're DNC emails. I'm gonna guess Putin will rely on his handy oil, gas, tanks, and nukes for leverage.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Bonam

dialamah · October 6, 2016

People are so vocal about how they hate Hillary because of reasons, but nobody ever actually articulate those reasons. I'm just hoping for once to get some specifics.

I'm also not sure whether many Trump supporters even know why they're mad about Benghazi Benghazi Benghazi, or know much about it at all other than it's something that they believe is Hillary's fault.

-k

Yeah I asked the same from rabid anti-Hillary people and got essentially nada. The hate seems all out of proportion to anything verifiable. Edited October 6, 2016 by dialamah

BubberMiley · October 6, 2016

Yeah I asked the same from rabid anti-Hillary people and got essentially nada. The hate seems all out of proportion to anything verifiable.

And they don't like to include sources, because it's embarrassing for them to admit how much they're being played by WorldNutDaily. I find it impressive how they can watch debates with the candidates blatantly lying, saying they never said things they are on the record saying, and they don't have the self-respect to admit they're being lied to. SAD!

Argus · October 6, 2016

Was Trump a governor or president at the time ?

Are you suggesting we shouldn't consider immoral behaviour in the choosing of a politician unless it happened after they got into office?

Argus · October 6, 2016

Many people do support her simply because she's a woman - not all, but many. You can't tell me that given the same baggage, a man would still be in the running for president of the US. It's completely naive to believe different.

Really? If there weren't a rule against it Bill Clinton would run and win. He's still very popular.

Argus · October 6, 2016

People are so vocal about how they hate Hillary because of reasons, but nobody ever actually articulate those reasons. I'm just hoping for once to get some specifics.

I tried this earlier in the thread, back in July. Nobody could come up with anything that had actual substance, just rumors of things, as if casting furtive eyes around and then whispering "Whitewater" should be enough to make people run screaming into the night.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Argus

Argus · October 6, 2016

I dare say that Americans know Hillary Clinton better than admirers from across the border, as well they should.

That's quite a dare given 40% don't even know who's running for vice president.

taxme · October 6, 2016

Even racists and bigots deserve entertainment. Why do you hate America?

The words racist and bigots are so over used these days that most people don't pat attention that much any more when the fake media uses them. Any one with a brain should know that those two words are only used against people who the fake media don't like. The fake media are so obvious in their bias and prejudice against whom they do not like. The sad part is that most people listen and believe what the fake media tells them. Aw well.

?Impact · October 6, 2016

Trump comes out and admits he is not really serious about being President, this is all just a game to him for entertainment. Donald Kardashian knows he is unfit to be President, just a reality TV star.

Michael Hardner · October 6, 2016

And they don't like to include sources, because it's embarrassing for them to admit how much they're being played by WorldNutDaily.

Just a note on how to reject sources in a civil manner:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/25544-how-to-question-sources-in-a-civil-manner/

?Impact · October 6, 2016

There are 17 states with a greater than 1% chance of tipping the election, and Hilary leads in all but 2 of those states. The two that Trump leads in (Arizona and Georgia) he has lost a significant part of that lead since the debate.

Florida
Pennsylvania
North Carolina
Michigan
Ohio
Colorado
Minnesota
Virginia
Wisconsin
Arizona
Nevada
New Hampshire
Iowa
New Jersey
Georgia
Washington
New Mexico

Hal 9000 · October 7, 2016

Are you people fkng kidding! You really need sources or links to know about Hillary's Scandals? Next time we have a rape case, I don't want to hear this "We have to believe the woman" routine, because you people clearly believe all those Clinton women to be liars.

kimmy · October 7, 2016

Are you people fkng kidding! You really need sources or links to know about Hillary's Scandals?

I know that you guys like to run around shouting "Benghazi Benghazi Benghazi!" but I don't actually know what specifically you're accusing Hillary of.

I know that you guys feel that Hillary's treatment of Gennifer Flowers and Paula Jones and Juanita Broderick is horrible, but I don't know what you guys actually believe she did to those women.

I know that you guys think the Clinton Foundation is crooked. I wrote my comments regarding the Clinton Foundation above, and you didn't comment on them... does that mean you can't actually find anything that you disagree with?

You guys keep talking over and over about how self-evident it is that Hillary is a horrible person. And yet you're never willing to elaborate except in the most vague possible terms. It's always "why, her scandals are so well known that I can't be bothered to explain them!"

There are a vast number of allegations against Hillary, and the vast majority of them are either total BS or grossly exaggerated or grossly misrepresentative of the facts.

I've already posted my analysis of Hillary's scandals as I understand them. I invited you to add to the list if you feel there's any I missed. You responded with some vague handwaving about how "those emails are still out there!" and some angry grumbling about Bill's accusers. If Hillary's scandals are so well known, why is it that you can't actually articulate any of them? I don't even want links. I just want to hear in specific terms what you think Hillary supporters are missing.

You keep complaining that people who don't agree with you about how awful Hillary is have been brainwashed by "the liberal media."

Might I propose that perhaps you guys are the ones who've been brainwashed? You've become part of this media subculture where people repeat "Benghazi Benghazi Benghazi!" as if it were some self-evident truth that everybody understands, and now that you're outside your subculture being asked what "Benghazi Benghazi Benghazi!" actually means, you've come to the sudden realization that you can't actually explain it, because you don't actually know either.

Next time we have a rape case, I don't want to hear this "We have to believe the woman" routine, because you people clearly believe all those Clinton women to be liars.

"Hillary was mean to Bill's accusers! Better vote for the disgusting chauvinist instead!" has to rank up there with "Hillary's charity seems shady! Better vote for the guy who uses his fake charity to bribe politicians and buy portraits of himself!" as the stupidest reasons to vote Trump that I've ever heard.

-k

Bonam · October 7, 2016

Are you people fkng kidding! You really need sources or links to know about Hillary's Scandals? Next time we have a rape case, I don't want to hear this "We have to believe the woman" routine, because you people clearly believe all those Clinton women to be liars.

Concocting some rape accusations is step #1 in trying to damage the image of any male public figure in the US. Has been for decades. Standard practice. Page 1 of every political playbook. Plenty of rape accusations out there about Trump, too, in case you're unaware. They're all bullshit until and unless shown to have meaning by a conviction in a court of law. Not blogs and tabloids.

Edited October 7, 2016 by Bonam

bush_cheney2004 · October 7, 2016

"Hillary was mean to Bill's accusers! Better vote for the disgusting chauvinist instead!" has to rank up there with "Hillary's charity seems shady! Better vote for the guy who uses his fake charity to bribe politicians and buy portraits of himself!" as the stupidest reasons to vote Trump that I've ever heard.

American voters can choose their candidate(s) for these or any other reasons. Some American women voted for Bill Clinton because of his hair.

kimmy · October 7, 2016

In listening to you, it's clear that Hillary has successfully convinced you people that calling Rosie odonnell or some beauty queen (who threatened a judges life) overweight

As I mentioned before, Trump's history of treating women like crap goes way beyond insulting Rosie O'Donnell or Alicia Machado. Aside from his well-known history of adultery and humiliating his wives, some of the goodies that have popped up during the campaign:

-treated female cast and crew on "The Apprentice" like pieces of meat.

-told managers at his golf courses to fire female staff that he didn't find attractive.

-a strong woman like Ivanka wouldn't be a victim of sexual harassment!

-women who are sexually harassed in the workplace can just quit and find other jobs.

-the progressive maternity leave policy Ivanka claimed existed at Trump's companies turns out to be fiction.

You keep trying to trivialize his misogyny by saying "oh, it was just a couple of tweets about Rosie O'Donnell", but it's a lot more than that. His meltdown over Alicia Machado isn't a one-time thing, it's a part of an ongoing pattern. Like when he stayed up late at night hate-tweeting about Megyn Kelly after the debate -- "bimbo" ... "had blood coming out of her whatever" ... because she asked him questions that made him unhappy.The dude was absolutely enraged at being questioned by a woman.

And he keeps talking about how he'd be banging Ivanka if he wasn't her dad. He views even his own daughter as a sex object. What could be more damning than that?

is worse than her misdeeds - which include regime change against her own military advisors, which has left thousands dead or her threats and intimidation of Bills rape victims.

"Hillary left thousands dead! Better vote for the guy who wants to nuke them all!"

-k

bush_cheney2004 · October 7, 2016

...You keep trying to trivialize his misogyny by saying "oh, it was just a couple of tweets about Rosie O'Donnell", but it's a lot more than that. His meltdown over Alicia Machado isn't a one-time thing, it's a part of an ongoing pattern. Like when he stayed up late at night hate-tweeting about Megyn Kelly after the debate -- "bimbo" ... "had blood coming out of her whatever" ... because she asked him questions that made him unhappy.The dude was absolutely enraged at being questioned by a woman.

And he keeps talking about how he'd be banging Ivanka if he wasn't her dad. He views even his own daughter as a sex object. What could be more damning than that?

The exercise of free speech rights should be protected. Clinton lied...Americans died. Trumps policies haven't killed anybody (yet).

DogOnPorch · October 7, 2016

The exercise of free speech rights should be protected. Clinton lied...Americans died. Trumps policies haven't killed anybody (yet).

Lisa: Ralph can't be President! He's the dumbest person in the slowest reading group!

Homer: Lisa, being President is easy! You just point the Army and shoot!

Edited October 7, 2016 by DogOnPorch

bush_cheney2004 · October 7, 2016

President Obama agrees with Donald Trump concerning NATO "freeloaders", and that includes Canada:

Trump, Obama on the same page

It's not just the decidedly non-interventionist Trump — a man who has had trouble naming any of his foreign policy advisers — who has taken aim at countries that are failing to meet the spending target. In fact, he is on the same page with an unlikely ally: the current president.

"Free riders aggravate me," Obama said in a recent, in-depth interview with The Atlantic magazine.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trump-obama-nato-spending-targets-1.3495736

Edited October 7, 2016 by bush_cheney2004